Christian "watchfulness" and Buddhist "Mindfulness"

Noxot · Sep 23, 2019

dlamberth said:
If Union with God is what your responding to, I think it's just the opposite. Intent implies ego. The mystics instruct that for Union with God a person must go past ego.

Me and my friends have criticized Christian mysticism for being too like Eastern mysticism before. I even adopt some of the thoughts of Max striner, an egoist anarchist. So I don't think ego is a bad thing. I think it can be quite wonderful and beautiful actually.

People who speak of non-dualism but don't recognize the goodness of Multiplicity don't understand non-dualism well enough.

There is a great trend to attempt to destroy the soul, but I have not been destroyed yet neither do I comply with other people that think I should. When it comes down to it it's their word versus mine.

dlamberth · Sep 23, 2019

Noxot said:
Me and my friends have criticized Christian mysticism for being too like Eastern mysticism before. I even adopt some of the thoughts of Max striner, an egoist anarchist. So I don't think ego is a bad thing. I think it can be quite wonderful and beautiful actually.

No one is saying that ego is a bad thing. That's not what I wrote nor even what I experience.

People who speak of non-dualism but don't recognize the goodness of Multiplicity don't understand non-dualism well enough.

In unity is also multiplicity. And in non-dualism is Union. There's a place for both. In today's world though it's mostly dualism through which we view life.

There is a great trend to attempt to destroy the soul, but I have not been destroyed yet neither do I comply with other people that think I should. When it comes down to it it's their word versus mine.

Good to hear.

Noxot · Sep 23, 2019

The horizontal and vertical of the Cross explains it. I don't see Egos as being destroyed, I see them as being purified. it's probably easier to do things in the heaven of Truth than it is in the heaven of love. At some point things get too melty.

I mean if I'm wrong i will eventually go away anyways right lol

Sorry, it's hard to talk about everything and I am limited I admit that.

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 23, 2019

Ego becomes translucent.

dlamberth · Sep 23, 2019

Akita Suggagaki said:
Ego becomes translucent.

That's a good word to use.

FireDragon76 · Sep 24, 2019

Noxot said:
The horizontal and vertical of the Cross explains it. I don't see Egos as being destroyed, I see them as being purified. it's probably easier to do things in the heaven of Truth than it is in the heaven of love. At some point things get too melty.

How can you destroy something that never really existed beyond a conditioned narrative?

In what way is "multiplicity" actually good? Good for whom?

Theists often want to build up a life-affirming worldview without qualifying the pain and suffering inherent in that life. Then they demonize religious or spiritual orientations that refuse to sanctify their life affirming, suffering denying mentality.

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 24, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
How can you destroy something that never really existed beyond a conditioned narrative?

In what way is "multiplicity" actually good? Good for whom?

Theists often want to build up a life-affirming worldview without qualifying the pain and suffering inherent in that life. Then they demonize religious or spiritual orientations that refuse to sanctify their life affirming, suffering denying mentality.

Conditioned Narrative? It is more than that. Multiplicity is good in that it is a more full expression of Being. It is a realization of creativity, diversity and community.

I see it all in an evolutionary process out of darkness.

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 24, 2019

dlamberth said:
That's a good word to use.

Still there, still real but no longer obstructing.

FireDragon76 · Sep 24, 2019

Akita Suggagaki said:
Conditioned Narrative? It is more than that. Multiplicity is good in that it is a more full expression of Being. It is a realization of creativity, diversity and community.

I see it all in an evolutionary process out of darkness.

Those things are not necessarily good or bad in themselves. After all, the Nazis had a community of like minded people, and they did create alot of things (Hitler was an artist, and actually designed the aesthetics of the Volkswagen Beetle).

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 24, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Those things are not necessarily good or bad in themselves. After all, the Nazis had a community of like minded people, and they did create alot of things (Hitler was an artist, and actually designed the aesthetics of the Volkswagen Beetle).

It sounds like you are challenging the fundamental notion that existence itself is worthwhile.

FireDragon76 · Sep 24, 2019

Akita Suggagaki said:
It sounds like you are challenging the fundamental notion that existence itself is worthwhile.

If there is value in existence, it's up to us to make it so.

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 24, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
If there is value in existence, it's up to us to make it so.

Yes, it is a personal matter.

dlamberth · Sep 24, 2019

Akita Suggagaki said:
Yes, it is a personal matter.

Yes, it's a personal matter. But I think it's also an aspect of consciousness where we Human Beings are the Universe being aware of itSelf which than also makes it a Cosmic wide matter.

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 24, 2019

dlamberth said:
Yes, it's a personal matter. But I think it's also an aspect of consciousness where we Human Beings are the Universe being aware of itSelf which than also makes it a Cosmic wide matter.

You and I would be good friends and have great discussions.

Noxot · Sep 25, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
How can you destroy something that never really existed beyond a conditioned narrative?

In what way is "multiplicity" actually good? Good for whom?

Theists often want to build up a life-affirming worldview without qualifying the pain and suffering inherent in that life. Then they demonize religious or spiritual orientations that refuse to sanctify their life affirming, suffering denying mentality.

Personally I in some ways like the tragedy of life. It's horrible for sure but that's not all life is. For us beings used to perfection, it really is a new kind of expierence. To be perfect or loving in this world is hard. Even being yourself is hard.

I exist and will continue to. This universe is my servant and I like having a partial discursive existence. Buddhism puts limits on itself that I won't put on myself. You metaphysically assume that your ego is not real.

If you can't find value in other selves then I can't help you, but I know you value others.

Noxot · Sep 25, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
(Hitler was an artist, and actually designed the aesthetics of the Volkswagen Beetle).

Lmao at least something good came from him. He would have been powerless without his followers.

FireDragon76 · Sep 25, 2019

Noxot said:
Personally I in some ways like the tragedy of life. It's horrible for sure but that's not all life is.

That's true, as Thich Nhat Hanh says, "No mud, no lotus".

The difference is that Buddhism will never say you're a horrible human being for looking at all this and wondering "why?"

For us beings used to perfection, it really is a new kind of expierence. To be perfect or loving in this world is hard. Even being yourself is hard.

The thing with Christianity, it inherited Platonic notions of perfection, and they've made inroads into our culture. The Good as abstraction. It encourages people to look for something that transcends the world. Potentially, that's even more life-denying than Buddhism.

I find the Zen aesthetic of wabi sabi interesting, in comparison, since it doesn't focus on that sort of notion of perfection.

TheOldWays · Sep 25, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
That's true, as Thich Nhat Hanh says, "No mud, no lotus".

A fine saying. I think the key is to not be bothered by the mud and let it go away by itself.

Noxot · Sep 26, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
The thing with Christianity, it inherited Platonic notions of perfection, and they've made inroads into our culture. The Good as abstraction. It encourages people to look for something that transcends the world. Potentially, that's even more life-denying than Buddhism.

I find the Zen aesthetic of wabi sabi interesting, in comparison, since it doesn't focus on that sort of notion of perfection.

Origen was basically the first Christian theologian. He knew the Greeks well. He suggested perfection to be an ascending forever, though I don't remember the exact description he used. I think the revelation verse "the smoke of her torment ascends forever" is a good expression of perfection of union with God. To transcend or surmount is good, as Whitehead says "God saves all that can be saved". So it is not life denying at all, only life enriching and life refining.

Being and non-being are two sides of the same coin. No-self is only a more fullness of self. It does not matter what religion, humans always assume they speak plain and simple. There is plenty of room to stumble no matter what religion you participate in.

What's wabi sabi? Those zen people can be tricky, at least they understand how people can misunderstand and that the truth is something more than mere words.

FireDragon76 · Sep 26, 2019

Noxot said:
Origen was basically the first Christian theologian. He knew the Greeks well. He suggested perfection to be an ascending forever, though I don't remember the exact description he used. I think the revelation verse "the smoke of her torment ascends forever" is a good expression of perfection of union with God. To transcend or surmount is good, as Whitehead says "God saves all that can be saved". So it is not life denying at all, only life enriching and life refining.

Being and non-being are two sides of the same coin. No-self is only a more fullness of self. It does not matter what religion, humans always assume they speak plain and simple. There is plenty of room to stumble no matter what religion you participate in.

What's wabi sabi? Those zen people can be tricky, at least they understand how people can misunderstand and that the truth is something more than mere words.

Wabi sabi is rooted in the Buddhist value of the acceptance of transience and impermanence. It is very different from western ideals of beauty that focus on perfection.

Wabi-sabi - Wikipedia

Examples of wabi sabi are kintsuge (repairing old pottery with gold and lacquer) or viewing cherry blossoms (the Japanese folk song Sakura sounds bittersweet for a reason, it reflects wabi sabi, as cherry trees only blossom for a brief period before they disappear).

Christian "watchfulness" and Buddhist "Mindfulness"

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