LDS How to Become a God

dzheremi

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Jesus Christ will be the judge perhaps only a few thousand will end up in the Celestial kingdom:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

If I don't make it I am sure I will be happy with whatever I do receive, because it will be more than I deserve.

The Hebrew word that is translated as "thousands" is אֲלָפִ֑֔ים, which is a plural indefinite form -- this is why you see the same word used in contexts with no exact number attached (as in Deuteronomy 5:10) as you do with exact numbers attached, e.g., in Numbers 2:9 -- אֶ֛לֶף וְשֵֽׁשֶׁת־ אֲלָפִ֥ים וְאַרְבַּע־ מֵא֖וֹת "...six thousand and four hundred" (6,400). The definiteness of the number has to do with the digits attached to it (or not) in the phrase, not with whether or not the word "thousand" is plural. The "thousand(s)" is a place holder (like how the fourth place before the decimal point is the thousands, regardless of what if any specific number actually goes there: _ _ _ _._ _), or in the case of an indefinite plural a way of saying "an uncountable amount" (that's why it is indefinite in the first place; you can't count the actual number).

It is a quirk of English (well, not just English, but you're only basing your understanding on the English translation anyway, so let's just say English) that we don't usually pluralize our numbers in this way -- it wouldn't be correct to translate Numbers 2:9 as "six thousands and four hundred", because that's not how we say our numbers (though I'm sure you can find it in many very antiquated or overly literal translations). Other languages, however, even other languages that are genetically related to English, make other decisions. In Spanish, the relevant clause from Numbers 2:9 reads "seis mil y cuatrocientos", literally "six thousand and four hundreds". In Russian (which is also genetically related to English and Spanish), it is shesht tysyach chetyresta, literally "six thousands four hundred"; so kind of the opposite of the Spanish: the thousands is pluralized (sing. 'thousand' is tysyacha), while the word for 'hundred', sot, is not pluralized, but changes from sot to sta due to the numeral it is attached to (for number 2 it is sti, for number 3 and 4, it is sta, whereas 5 and above use sto). Plural 'hundreds' in Russian will change based on the exact construct you are using, but would be stoni, stonya, stoen, etc.

All of this is to say that maybe you shouldn't put too much emphasis on number in your reading of the Bible, because what exactly you're reading as the text has a lot more to do with how your language's number system works than with the soteriological truth found in the text itself. The Greek LXX (OT translation made c. 250 BC) uses χιλιάδας in Deuteronomy 5:10, which is the genitive singular form ('thousand'; the plural is χιλιάδες), yet the Greeks have never believed that only 1,000 people will be judged to be righteous.
 
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dzheremi

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My answer still stands. We worship Who Jesus tells us to worship. To make it more clear, we worship Jesus's God, God the Father, (John 4:23) and when appropriate we worship the Son, Jesus.

Is this a trick question?

"When appropriate"? I'm sorry, when is it ever not appropriate to worship Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

(And that ^ is not a trick question; I really want to know what Mormons would say in response to that.)
 
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twin.spin

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Biblical Christianity teaches that we are to worship Jesus because he commanded it … (see definition of 'honour' below)

John 5:23
"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." ~ Jesus commanding to worship him

and just a sample where God revealed that people and angels did indeed worshipped Jesus:

Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him:

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him,

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Luke 24:52
And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
___________________________________________________________________________
Oxford dictionary:
Definition: -> Honour: -> verb:
synonyms:

hold in great respect · hold in high esteem · have a high regard for · esteem · respect · admire · defer to · look up to · think highly of · appreciate · value · prize · cherish · reverence · revere · venerate · worship · put on a pedestal

My answer still stands. We worship Who Jesus tells us to worship. To make it more clear, we worship Jesus's God, God the Father, (John 4:23) and when appropriate we worship the Son, Jesus.
Such an answer requires no longer to bother asking how Mormonism twists Scripture
Is this a trick question?
No … God doesn't reveal gottcha tricks.
 
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Peter1000

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Biblical Christianity teaches that we are to worship Jesus because he commanded it … (see definition of 'honour' below)

John 5:23
"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." ~ Jesus commanding to worship him

and just a sample where God revealed that people and angels did indeed worshipped Jesus:

Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him:

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him,

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Luke 24:52
And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
___________________________________________________________________________
Oxford dictionary:
Definition: -> Honour: -> verb:
synonyms:

hold in great respect · hold in high esteem · have a high regard for · esteem · respect · admire · defer to · look up to · think highly of · appreciate · value · prize · cherish · reverence · revere · venerate · worship · put on a pedestal


Such an answer requires no longer to bother asking how Mormonism twists Scripture

No … God doesn't reveal gottcha tricks.
How did I twist John 4:23? You have accused, now tell me how I twisted it.
 
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Peter1000

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"When appropriate"? I'm sorry, when is it ever not appropriate to worship Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

(And that ^ is not a trick question; I really want to know what Mormons would say in response to that.)
It is a trick question because we all know who we worship.

And again, thank you for the scholarship about numbers in the bible. But I think it interesting that the KJV translators were not as smart as you are in terms of these things, otherwise they would have given us a different answer to that scripture.

'A different answer to that scripture'? Is that interesting to you? IOW is Deuteronomy 5:10, the way it has come to us in English leading us into a false concept?
 
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dzheremi

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It is a trick question because we all know who we worship.

Honestly, Peter, I do not recognize the gods that Mormons worship at all. And I mean that literally: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as described in Mormonism are completely alien to traditional Christianity. This is why no traditional (Catholic, Orthodox, high-church Protestant) Christian recognizes Mormonism as a kind of Christianity, because you guys do not worship God at all. To the extent that some Christians might say otherwise, it is only those who do not delve as deeply into theology as even you and I have (let alone actual theologians; I'm not one of those, I'm just some guy).

And again, thank you for the scholarship about numbers in the bible. But I think it interesting that the KJV translators were not as smart as you are in terms of these things, otherwise they would have given us a different answer to that scripture.

Hmm? I don't know where this is coming from. My point was that how a given language deals with numbers is going to determine how the passage is translated, since not all languages even within a single family write their numbers in the same way. So 'thousands' vs. 'thousand' isn't the issue, since it's an indefinite form (it is used for uncountable nouns, so the "thousands" are not 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. thousand, or any countable number of thousands; if they were, the writer would have specified, as was done in the passage from Numbers that I brought up specifically to illustrate this).

'A different answer to that scripture'? Is that interesting to you? IOW is Deuteronomy 5:10, the way it has come to us in English leading us into a false concept?

I think the Mormon understanding of the verse as "a few thousand" or whatever is definitely false, but that's not the fault of the base text or the translation. That comes from the Mormon interpretation itself.
 
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Peter1000

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Honestly, Peter, I do not recognize the gods that Mormons worship at all. And I mean that literally: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as described in Mormonism are completely alien to traditional Christianity. This is why no traditional (Catholic, Orthodox, high-church Protestant) Christian recognizes Mormonism as a kind of Christianity, because you guys do not worship God at all. To the extent that some Christians might say otherwise, it is only those who do not delve as deeply into theology as even you and I have (let alone actual theologians; I'm not one of those, I'm just some guy).
There are some things about God, that we feel you are unaware of, that the scriptures in some cases make very plain, and in other cases it is a little more difficult, but manageable to know the scripture content. So we feel confident in our interpretation of the bible, and know that what we think will come to pass.

There is only 1 God the Father and 1 Jesus Christ and 1 Holy Ghost. We all have our interpretations about how they are made up and how they operate. So don't get all caught up in the idea of our God vs your God. He is the same God, we just all think differently about the Godhead. This difference of opinion will be cleared up in a few interesting minutes when we no longer see darkly but see Jesus face to face and learn from him how all things work.

What we need to do is just keep, keeping on in the work of the Lord. To be engaged in the work of the Lord and keep living the law of Christ (Galations 6:2) and all the differences will be totally taken away in a 1 hour seminar with Jesus.

I think the Mormon understanding of the verse as "a few thousand" or whatever is definitely false, but that's not the fault of the base text or the translation. That comes from the Mormon interpretation itself.

I would be disappointed if you would have said our interpretation is correct. But I must admit that it would be difficult to interpret the word "thousands" a whole lot differently than you.
"He is the way" has suggested that a 'few thousand' will receive mercy. That is his interpretation, I happen to think 'thousands' could be a very large number. But I'm not sure you want to pull out your sword over this scripture.
 
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twin.spin

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How did I twist John 4:23? You have accused, now tell me how I twisted it.
1) Your answer on the Mormon premise that John 4:23 "makes clear" that Jesus is not to be worshipped despite any other Scripture that teaches otherwise.

2) Your answer on the Mormon premise that John 4:23 excludes the worship of Jesus unless "when appropriate we worship the Son, Jesus."

3) Your answer on the Mormon premise that John 4:23 makes any other Scriptures that teaches otherwise to Mormonism is thus deemed "Is this a trick question?"

IOW ... your entire answer based on Mormonism's premise twists John 4:23.

 
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twin.spin

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There is only 1 God the Father and 1 Jesus Christ and 1 Holy Ghost. We all have our interpretations about how they are made up and how they operate. So don't get all caught up in the idea of our God vs your God. He is the same God, we just all think differently about the Godhead. This difference of opinion will be cleared up in a few interesting minutes when we no longer see darkly but see Jesus face to face and learn from him how all things work.
Another example of Mormonism twisting of Scripture
The Mormonism version of God is not the same as the Biblical Christianity.
It is well documented the differences, so to shrug it off as a mere "just all think differently" is proof of your response to the truth when told.

What we need to do is just keep, keeping on in the work of the Lord. To be engaged in the work of the Lord and keep living the law of Christ (Galations 6:2) and all the differences will be totally taken away in a 1 hour seminar with Jesus.
Another example of Mormonism twisting Scripture.
 
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He is the way

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The Hebrew word that is translated as "thousands" is אֲלָפִ֑֔ים, which is a plural indefinite form -- this is why you see the same word used in contexts with no exact number attached (as in Deuteronomy 5:10) as you do with exact numbers attached, e.g., in Numbers 2:9 -- אֶ֛לֶף וְשֵֽׁשֶׁת־ אֲלָפִ֥ים וְאַרְבַּע־ מֵא֖וֹת "...six thousand and four hundred" (6,400). The definiteness of the number has to do with the digits attached to it (or not) in the phrase, not with whether or not the word "thousand" is plural. The "thousand(s)" is a place holder (like how the fourth place before the decimal point is the thousands, regardless of what if any specific number actually goes there: _ _ _ _._ _), or in the case of an indefinite plural a way of saying "an uncountable amount" (that's why it is indefinite in the first place; you can't count the actual number).

It is a quirk of English (well, not just English, but you're only basing your understanding on the English translation anyway, so let's just say English) that we don't usually pluralize our numbers in this way -- it wouldn't be correct to translate Numbers 2:9 as "six thousands and four hundred", because that's not how we say our numbers (though I'm sure you can find it in many very antiquated or overly literal translations). Other languages, however, even other languages that are genetically related to English, make other decisions. In Spanish, the relevant clause from Numbers 2:9 reads "seis mil y cuatrocientos", literally "six thousand and four hundreds". In Russian (which is also genetically related to English and Spanish), it is shesht tysyach chetyresta, literally "six thousands four hundred"; so kind of the opposite of the Spanish: the thousands is pluralized (sing. 'thousand' is tysyacha), while the word for 'hundred', sot, is not pluralized, but changes from sot to sta due to the numeral it is attached to (for number 2 it is sti, for number 3 and 4, it is sta, whereas 5 and above use sto). Plural 'hundreds' in Russian will change based on the exact construct you are using, but would be stoni, stonya, stoen, etc.

All of this is to say that maybe you shouldn't put too much emphasis on number in your reading of the Bible, because what exactly you're reading as the text has a lot more to do with how your language's number system works than with the soteriological truth found in the text itself. The Greek LXX (OT translation made c. 250 BC) uses χιλιάδας in Deuteronomy 5:10, which is the genitive singular form ('thousand'; the plural is χιλιάδες), yet the Greeks have never believed that only 1,000 people will be judged to be righteous.
Thank you for the enlightenment.
 
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Peter1000

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1) Your answer on the Mormon premise that John 4:23 "makes clear" that Jesus is not to be worshipped despite any other Scripture that teaches otherwise.

2) Your answer on the Mormon premise that John 4:23 excludes the worship of Jesus unless "when appropriate we worship the Son, Jesus."

3) Your answer on the Mormon premise that John 4:23 makes any other Scriptures that teaches otherwise to Mormonism is thus deemed "Is this a trick question?"

IOW ... your entire answer based on Mormonism's premise twists John 4:23.

Thank you for your response. In your post 1178 you were showing me that the bible tells us to worship Jesus. And all of your scriptures that you brought forth told us to worship Jesus.

I thought I would balance that teaching with John 4:23 where Jesus is telling us that God, his Father and God (John 20:17) wants us to worship the Father.

I have said that we worship who Jesus tells us to worship and I will add, that we worship who the Father of Jesus tells us to worship and He tells us to worship His Son. So we do.

We worship both.

So I was not trying to twist John 4:23 to imply that we only worship God the Father and if that came across that way, then you now have an explanation that I was not trying to imply that we do not worship Jesus. Your scriptures was sufficient to help us know that, however, they did not say anything of the Father. You do worship the Father, right?
 
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Peter1000

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Another example of Mormonism twisting of Scripture
The Mormonism version of God is not the same as the Biblical Christianity.
It is well documented the differences, so to shrug it off as a mere "just all think differently" is proof of your response to the truth when told.

6
Another example of Mormonism twisting Scripture.
I only quoted 1 scripture and that was Galations 6:2 that says:
Galatians 6:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

You do believe in this scripture the way it is written?

Again, I am accused of twisting scripture. Did I twist more than 1?
How did I twist Galatians 6:2?
 
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Rescued One

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And Heavenly Mom ? What about her?

Females are never worshiped. They only hold the Priesthood when they hug one of them: husband, father, sons, maybe other male relatives. :p
 
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dzheremi

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Maybe there's something about this situation I'm not understanding because I'm not a polytheist or henotheist, but with regard to this "Heavenly Mother" personage: what is the point of having these 'other gods' who are not to be worshiped?
 
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twin.spin

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I only quoted 1 scripture and that was Galations 6:2 that says:
Galatians 6:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

You do believe in this scripture the way it is written?

Again, I am accused of twisting scripture. Did I twist more than 1?
How did I twist Galatians 6:2?
How?
A: Attempting to use Galatians 6:2 (or any Bible Scripture for that matter) to substantiate the larger point of Mormonism teaching.
 
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twin.spin

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Thank you for your response. In your post 1178 you were showing me that the bible tells us to worship Jesus. And all of your scriptures that you brought forth told us to worship Jesus.

I thought I would balance that teaching with John 4:23 where Jesus is telling us that God, his Father and God (John 20:17) wants us to worship the Father.

I have said that we worship who Jesus tells us to worship and I will add, that we worship who the Father of Jesus tells us to worship and He tells us to worship His Son. So we do.

We worship both.

So I was not trying to twist John 4:23 to imply that we only worship God the Father and if that came across that way, then you now have an explanation that I was not trying to imply that we do not worship Jesus. Your scriptures was sufficient to help us know that, however, they did not say anything of the Father. You do worship the Father, right?
You may want to rescind your statement stating: "Your scriptures was sufficient to help us know that, however, they did not say anything of the Father." … being that the very first Scripture I posted did. John 5:23

The main point of John 5:23 is that Jesus commands for him to be worshipped "just as the Father is honored". In other words, he is to receive equal honor.

Equal honor is something Mormonism subtly doesn’t give Jesus.
 
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Peter1000

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You may want to rescind your statement stating: "Your scriptures was sufficient to help us know that, however, they did not say anything of the Father." … being that the very first Scripture I posted did. John 5:23

The main point of John 5:23 is that Jesus commands for him to be worshipped "just as the Father is honored". In other words, he is to receive equal honor.

Equal honor is something Mormonism subtly doesn’t give Jesus.
We agree with you.
 
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