First murder: Cain and Abel

Emmylouwho · Sep 19, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Yes. It's because there are things about the Messiah in the Psalms David wrote. God didn't forsake David or Christ. David was wrong, Christ is God so God cannot forsake God anyways.

Psa_22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Mat_27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Ahh. So when Jesus said, why have you forsaken me, he wasn’t actually speaking to God?

ewq1938 · Sep 19, 2019

Emmylouwho said:
Ahh. So when Jesus said, why have you forsaken me, he wasn’t actually speaking to God?

Correct. He also never said "God" when he spoke/prayed to his Father. He always used "Father".

Erik Nelson · Sep 20, 2019

Emmylouwho said:
Explaining it thousands of years after the fact is lame. Until Paul gave his extremely vague “explanation “, what were people supposed to think about it? And where did Paul get his explanation from?

the Holy Spirit?

Erik Nelson · Sep 20, 2019

Emmylouwho said:
What? While Jesus was dying on the cross he decided to quote David?!?

yes that is well known

Sal Robinson · Sep 20, 2019

hey friend, this sermon by Crystal sparks will really answer your question.....she's speaks God's in a way that is really accessable, it will make alot of this clear for you....the long story short is that Abel didn't have God first in his heart

Erik Nelson · Sep 20, 2019

Cain vs. Abel = urban city dwellers vs. hunter(-gatherers)

may possibly be some connection to the current climate of hostility towards modern US hunters & target-practicers?

Mark51 · Sep 21, 2019

A point of belief/understanding: I view Satan the Devil as the first “manslayer” and “father of the lie“-in the spiritual sense. John 8:44 Through his deception, he caused Eve to sin; and consequently, indirectly sentenced her to death.

BobRyan · Sep 21, 2019

Mark51 said:
A point of belief/understanding: I view Satan the Devil as the first “manslayer” and “father of the lie“-in the spiritual sense. John 8:44 Through his deception, he caused Eve to sin; and consequently, indirectly sentenced her to death.

Is there a Bible text calling Satan "the first manslayer"?

Jesus said Satan is the father of lies

Erik Nelson · Sep 21, 2019

Mark51 said:
A point of belief/understanding: I view Satan the Devil as the first “manslayer” and “father of the lie“-in the spiritual sense. John 8:44 Through his deception, he caused Eve to sin; and consequently, indirectly sentenced her to death.

Cain was demonically possessed, of the Adversary 1 John 3:12

Mark51 · Sep 22, 2019

BobRyan said:
Is there a Bible text calling Satan "the first manslayer"?

It is in the same scripture quoted.

Mark51 · Sep 22, 2019

I do not get the sense of your point that Cain was possessed. By your understand of 1 John 3:12 then-according to 1 John 3:15-anyone who "hates his brother is a manslayer"; and, subsequently possessed.
Correct me if my understanding needs refined.

Erik Nelson · Sep 22, 2019

Mark51 said:
I do not get the sense of your point that Cain was possessed. By your understand of 1 John 3:12 then-according to 1 John 3:15-anyone who "hates his brother is a manslayer"; and, subsequently possessed.
Correct me if my understanding needs refined.

well, what's wrong with that interpretation ?

The Adversary has no eternal life, but ends up cast into the LoF at FJ (Rev 20:9+)

The Adversary sows bloodshed on earth, in an attempt to exterminate the hated human race

Anyone who submits to The Adversary -- in whole or even in part -- and allows themselves to be possessed by the same, will not only become The Adversary's "onworld agents" acting out The Adversary's human-hostile "marching orders", but also becomes of the same, earning the same fate

BobRyan · Sep 22, 2019

There is no record of Satan killing someone in the Bible. Calling a human a murderer does charge him with killing humans but charging an angel with being a murderer does not limit his work to men.

1213 · Sep 22, 2019

Emmylouwho said:
... Why did God care if it was meat or vegetables? Why was a meat offering better than a veggie offering? ...

I think the difference was in, the other gave something that was valuable to the giver and so showed that he appreciated God much. The other didn’t show that same attitude, that is why his offering was not as appreciated. It was not about the matter, but about the attitude and spirit of the action. Thought matters more than what was given.

Emmylouwho · Sep 22, 2019

1213 said:
I think the difference was in, the other gave something that was valuable to the giver and so showed that he appreciated God much. The other didn’t show that same attitude, that is why his offering was not as appreciated. It was not about the matter, but about the attitude and spirit of the action. Thought matters more than what was given.

Why would god care more about meat than vegetables? Aren’t both important to a healthy diet? Why couldn’t god have equally praised both?

Erik Nelson · Sep 23, 2019

Emmylouwho said:
Why would god care more about meat than vegetables? Aren’t both important to a healthy diet? Why couldn’t god have equally praised both?

that is not the issue the Bible talks about

Abel offered up his first fruits, whereas Cain did not put God first

coffee4u · Sep 23, 2019

Are we back to talking about meat vs vegetables? God never mentioned the vegetables only the sin in his heart.

I don't think they want a real answer.

1213 · Sep 23, 2019

Emmylouwho said:
Why would god care more about meat than vegetables? Aren’t both important to a healthy diet? Why couldn’t god have equally praised both?

Yes, even small vegetable can be good and valuable. But what do you think, if there is two people, one is incredibly rich and one is very poor and owns only 10 dollars. The poor person gives you 5 dollars as a gift, and the rich person gives you 5000 dollars so that he would not have to carry them. What do you think, who appreciated you more, the rich one who gave something that meant nothing to him, or the poor who gave his next week’s meal to you?

I think this could be compared to this story:

Jesus sat down opposite the treasury, and saw how the multitude cast money into the treasury. Many who were rich cast in much. A poor widow came, and she cast in two small brass coins, which equal a quadrans coin. He called his disciples to himself, and said to them, "Most assuredly I tell you, this poor widow gave more than all those who are giving into the treasury, for they all gave out of their abundance, but she, out of her poverty, gave all that she had to live on."
Mark. 12:41-44

In case of Cain and Abel, Abel gave something that was important and valuable to him, Cain gave something that was not very valuable to him. (Cain, fruits that were on the ground. It is possible that Cain had done nothing to grow the fruits. Abel gave best of his sheep). That is the difference. It tells the other appreciated God and the other not so much.

ewq1938 · Sep 23, 2019

1213 said:
In case of Cain and Abel, Abel gave something that was important and valuable to him, Cain gave something that was not very valuable to him. (Cain, fruits that were on the ground. It is possible that Cain had done nothing to grow the fruits.

That's unlikely since his job was tilling the ground (a farmer) like his father was.

Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 23, 2019

footnote for research:
"An offering.--Heb., a thank-offering, a present.

We must be careful not to introduce here any of the later Levitical ideas about sacrifice.

All that we know about this offering is that it was an act of worship, and apparently something usual.

Now, each brought of his own produce, and one was accepted and one rejected.

Why?

Much ingenuity has been wasted on this question, as though Cain erred on technical grounds;

whereas we are expressly told in Hebrews 11:4 that Abel's was the more excellent sacrifice, because offered "in faith."

It was the state of their hearts that made the difference;"

Genesis 4:3 So in the course of time, Cain brought some of the fruit of the soil as an offering to the LORD,

First murder: Cain and Abel

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