Whites Need Not Apply

Ana the Ist

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You feel something, otherwise you would not be complaining.

I feel that racism is wrong and I think it should be called out.

I'm also a little surprised to see people on this thread try to minimize and defend it.
 
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Ken-1122

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The only whites I see complaining about racism against whites are those who are ok with racism against people of color.
The only people I see justifying racism of any type are racists! You know; kinda like what you're doing.
 
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Ken-1122

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I did not say that.That is your assumption.
If I misunderstood you, what exactly did you say when you said (paraphrasing) the only people who complain about racism against whites are those who would have no problem with racism against non whites?
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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The only people I see justifying racism of any type are racists! You know; kinda like what you're doing.
I am not justifying anything. Just explaing why the college may have a special symposium for people of color. Why don't you contact them to see if their intent is racism?
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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I feel that racism is wrong and I think it should be called out.

I'm also a little surprised to see people on this thread try to minimize and defend it.
See! I told you. :)
 
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Ana the Ist

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I am not justifying anything. Just explaing why the college may have a special symposium for people of color. Why don't you contact them to see if their intent is racism?

It doesn't matter what their intentions are...their actions are racist.
 
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Ken-1122

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I am not justifying anything. Just explaing why the college may have a special symposium for people of color. Why don't you contact them to see if their intent is racism?
So if I understand you correctly, you aren't claiming to agree with what the College is doing, you are just playing "devils advocate" by explaining how they justify their racist policies. Is that correct?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Are you saying the company you work for refuses to hire more black people and more women? That they are constantly turning away such qualified applicants? What do you base this on?
No, I'm not saying that, and I have no idea where you came up with that outlandish conclusion. Bizarre.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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No....it's just racism.
No, it's not. It's part of an effort to offset and reverse institutionalized, endemic racism.

Let's say they had an opportunity to join a NBA team that is 90% black.

Let's also drop all your previous biases and assumptions and say they group up in a neighborhood with a white minority.
OK, you just said it... So what's your point? I don't understand what you're even trying to get at.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I can’t speak for your personal experiences, but If you are under the impression that all white people have all the privileges, are never discriminated against because of their race, and black and brown people are constantly discriminated against, and have no privileges because of their race, you are mistaken. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Well I'm not under that impression and I never said I was, nor did I indicate that I was.

But I think part of the problem here is that you have no idea of the difference between "privilege" and "privileges". It's not simply a matter of singular vs. plural. Another part of the problem is that you seem to want everything to measured in absolutes, which is not realistic. And yet another part of the problem is that you think I base everything exclusively on my own personal experience, whereas I do not. I base a lot on my experience but also on what I learn from others' experiences and from other sources.

It's odd to me that you make so many assumptions in one post, none of which are based on anything I actually said in my posts.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No, it's not. It's part of an effort to offset and reverse institutionalized, endemic racism.

Racism with good intentions is racism all the same. There's no reason for doing it that is going to magically make it not racism. They're discriminating based upon race.

OK, you just said it... So what's your point? I don't understand what you're even trying to get at.

If someone decides to not take an opportunity because of their racial biases....that's their own racism holding them back, not anyone else's.
 
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grasping the after wind

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If you were white you would probably whine about being stereotyped.
Is that because only white people are offended by being stereotyped or because only white people deserve to be offended by being stereotyped?
 
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Ken-1122

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Well I'm not under that impression and I never said I was, nor did I indicate that I was.

But I think part of the problem here is that you have no idea of the difference between "privilege" and "privileges". It's not simply a matter of singular vs. plural. Another part of the problem is that you seem to want everything to measured in absolutes, which is not realistic. And yet another part of the problem is that you think I base everything exclusively on my own personal experience, whereas I do not. I base a lot on my experience but also on what I learn from others' experiences and from other sources.

It's odd to me that you make so many assumptions in one post, none of which are based on anything I actually said in my posts.

Actually my assumptions are based on what you said on post #79. Perhaps I first should have responded to what you said on post #79, so I will do it below.

(quote from post#79)
No, it's part of an effort to reduce and eliminate racism.

(reply)
Remember when your momma told you two wrongs don’t make a right? She was right. You don’t fix years of racism by reversing the racism; you fix it by making things equal

(quote)
I don't know what that means - they didn't take a job opportunity because there weren't enough white people at the company? In the field? In the department? If a white person told me they didn't take a job because there weren't "enough white people" I'd say they are racist because there are plenty of white people in every job, field, company, position, etc. Yeah, they'd have to be pretty racist to say there aren't enough white people out there when there are tons of us all over the place.

(reply)
Here you are wrong. In the USA there are jobs, fields, positions, etc. where there are not plenty of white people. When I was manager at a specific job, I was constantly pressured by some blacks to hire only blacks regardless of qualification. I’ve seen situations where a brown person gets supervisory position, and he only hired brown people and soon nearly the entire department comprised of brown people. You guys aren’t the only ones who can be bigots you know!
The fact that you made comments like above gives me the impression that you have limited experience with black and brown people on a professional level.

(quote)
I'd be like "Wow you need more white people in your life despite being surrounded by a majority of white people? Tell me what severe problems you have from being white, because I'm a white person and I know I have way more privilege and almost no disadvantages because of my being white.

(reply)
Comments like this give me the impression that you somehow think that because you are white that you somehow have privileges that I don’t, and because I’m black, that I somehow experience disadvantages that you don’t. I don’t know if that’s because of what you hear in the media, lack of diversity with your outside sources that you get your information from, or just plain ignorance (lack of knowledge) But these are the type of comments you made that caused me to reply the way I did.

(quote)
This I gotta hear!" And I'd probably laugh at whatever they'd tell me because it would probably be a ridiculous explanation.

(reply)
I would caution you against criticizing those who have experiences different than your own; consider the possibility that you could learn from these people.

(quote)
I'd hear out his complaints first but I'm pretty sure they'd be completely invalid, insipid, inane complaints and I'd probably laugh at them and then set them straight.

Yeah, I agree - any white person who says they have those problems is most likely racist and needs to work on those problems.


(reply)
Believe it or not; white people have not cornered the market on racism and bigotry; non-whites are just as capable of this too. The fact that you seem to have one standard for whites and a completely different standard for non-whites tells me you have a lot to learn (assuming your double standard is based on ignorance rather than bigotry)

Anyway; the above quotes from you is the reason I got the impression you believe white people have all the privileges, are never discriminated against because of their race; and black and brown people have no privileges and are constantly discriminated against because of their race.
I assume much of what I said you will disagree with, so let me know where you think I’ve gone wrong. Looking foreword to your reply

Ken
 
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ArmenianJohn

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So what are you saying is the reason there are only 1% black and 20% females in the company you work for?
Institutional racism and sexism. I said that in post 80.
 
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Ken-1122

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Institutional racism and sexism. I said that in post 80.
In order for there to be institutional racism/sexism, the institution (the department you work for) must be created in such a manner that the institution will remain racist and sexist no matter the person(s) holding positions within it.
In short -- If you are given free reign to remove all officers within that institution and replace them with a new group of people, hand chosen by you; would said racism and sexism remain?
If removing / replacing the variables from the system, (in this case the hiring managers) would cleanse the system of racism and sexism, then institutional racism/sexism does not exist. However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all hiring managers with people known to not be racist or sexist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist/sexist here), then institutional racism and sexism exists.
With that in mind, how do you know institutional racism and sexism is the problem here?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Actually my assumptions are based on what you said on post #79. Perhaps I first should have responded to what you said on post #79, so I will do it below.

(quote from post#79)
No, it's part of an effort to reduce and eliminate racism.

(reply)
Remember when your momma told you two wrongs don’t make a right? She was right. You don’t fix years of racism by reversing the racism; you fix it by making things equal
I had a mother, not a "momma". Never called her "momma". Maybe your momma didn't know otherwise.

As for what my mother did teach me, she raised me as a Christian. Therefore, I learned that one principle of fairness and justice was "an eye for an eye". What that means is that when one person does a wrong then the authorities can enforce retribution by inflicting on that person what they inflicted upon someone else. More literally, if one man takes another man's eye out, then the victim has the right to take the eye from the assailant as justice, and authority will enforce that.

Do you consider it "two wrongs make a right" when a criminal is caught and forced to pay back what he stole? Are you saying "Just because the criminal stole doesn't make it right for the courts to steal back what he stole and return it to his victim!!!" Because that's basically what you're saying here. (And it's dead wrong.)

(quote)
I don't know what that means - they didn't take a job opportunity because there weren't enough white people at the company? In the field? In the department? If a white person told me they didn't take a job because there weren't "enough white people" I'd say they are racist because there are plenty of white people in every job, field, company, position, etc. Yeah, they'd have to be pretty racist to say there aren't enough white people out there when there are tons of us all over the place.

(reply)
Here you are wrong. In the USA there are jobs, fields, positions, etc. where there are not plenty of white people. When I was manager at a specific job, I was constantly pressured by some blacks to hire only blacks regardless of qualification. I’ve seen situations where a brown person gets supervisory position, and he only hired brown people and soon nearly the entire department comprised of brown people. You guys aren’t the only ones who can be bigots you know!
The fact that you made comments like above gives me the impression that you have limited experience with black and brown people on a professional level.
Thanks for your anecdote, but unfortunately for you anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything. Perhaps you have something that backs up your anecdote? That's something I'll take more seriously.

As for me being wrong, you're wrong. I'm correct. Here's a report from the Brookings Institute that backs up what I'm saying:
Black and Hispanic underrepresentation in tech: It’s time to change the equation

I'd be like "Wow you need more white people in your life despite being surrounded by a majority of white people? Tell me what severe problems you have from being white, because I'm a white person and I know I have way more privilege and almost no disadvantages because of my being white.

(reply)
Comments like this give me the impression that you somehow think that because you are white that you somehow have privileges that I don’t, and because I’m black, that I somehow experience disadvantages that you don’t. I don’t know if that’s because of what you hear in the media, lack of diversity with your outside sources that you get your information from, or just plain ignorance (lack of knowledge) But these are the type of comments you made that caused me to reply the way I did.
So you think that neither you nor I have any privileges over each other in life? Come to my office in midtown Manhattan and I can easily show you.

This I gotta hear!" And I'd probably laugh at whatever they'd tell me because it would probably be a ridiculous explanation.

(reply)
I would caution you against criticizing those who have experiences different than your own; consider the possibility that you could learn from these people.
I would laugh so hard at white people who try to tell me what you proposed! I wouldn't have any problem with that! LOL

I'd hear out his complaints first but I'm pretty sure they'd be completely invalid, insipid, inane complaints and I'd probably laugh at them and then set them straight.

Yeah, I agree - any white person who says they have those problems is most likely racist and needs to work on those problems.


(reply)
Believe it or not; white people have not cornered the market on racism and bigotry; non-whites are just as capable of this too. The fact that you seem to have one standard for whites and a completely different standard for non-whites tells me you have a lot to learn (assuming your double standard is based on ignorance rather than bigotry)
I never said that whites are the only racists, so I don't know where you get that idea from. I'm white, so I own up to the racism that I as a white person am responsible for and I speak up about the racism of other white people as well. I'm not black or hispanic or female so I don't speak for the racism or sexism of people from those demographics, because I can't, because I don't have experience with living life as those demographics.

So you think whites are pretty much not racist? Or you think that whites are no more racist than any others? Really? Please state as much.

Anyway; the above quotes from you is the reason I got the impression you believe white people have all the privileges, are never discriminated against because of their race; and black and brown people have no privileges and are constantly discriminated against because of their race.
I assume much of what I said you will disagree with, so let me know where you think I’ve gone wrong. Looking foreword to your reply

Ken
I never said that white people have all the privileges. That's what I meant when I said you don't understand the difference between "privilege" and "privileges". White people have an overall privilege in life. I don't get treated the same (negative) way as my black and hispanic friends when I go through life dealing with different stores, eateries, cops, etc. I've seen it, and my friends have told me about it, and those same friends and I have seen it and talked about it together on many occasions that we've gone out and it's happened.

So you believe that you get treated exactly as any white person in general society? That's great if you do get treated the same; but do you really believe that? You believe that you and I can spend a day in liberal New York City and everywhere we go we'll be treated the same way by everyone? LOL, wow.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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In order for there to be institutional racism/sexism, the institution (the department you work for) must be created in such a manner that the institution will remain racist and sexist no matter the person(s) holding positions within it.
In short -- If you are given free reign to remove all officers within that institution and replace them with a new group of people, hand chosen by you; would said racism and sexism remain?
If removing / replacing the variables from the system, (in this case the hiring managers) would cleanse the system of racism and sexism, then institutional racism/sexism does not exist. However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all hiring managers with people known to not be racist or sexist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist/sexist here), then institutional racism and sexism exists.
With that in mind, how do you know institutional racism and sexism is the problem here?
Institutional racism is a term for how racism is endemic to all our institutions. In the case of my example with my company, my company is NOT the institution in that example which is being racist. In that example, the institutions would more the be academic institutions and professional organizations that are somehow promoting technology as a field to non-blacks and non-hispanics in a manner that is way out of proportion with their percentage of general society.

My corporation, in my example, is one "institution" which is actually trying to take action to reverse the racism and damage done by the other institutions. I don't know how, from my example, you got the message that my company was "the institution" perpetuating "institutional racism". The "institutional" in "intitutional racism" refers to the institutional structure, i.e. all the institutions collectively, not to this company or that university. In that sense, my company is guilty, as being part of the overall institution of the corporate world. That's why they are taking responsibility for that guilt and making an attempt to right it.
 
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zephcom

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In order for there to be institutional racism/sexism, the institution (the department you work for) must be created in such a manner that the institution will remain racist and sexist no matter the person(s) holding positions within it.
In short -- If you are given free reign to remove all officers within that institution and replace them with a new group of people, hand chosen by you; would said racism and sexism remain?
If removing / replacing the variables from the system, (in this case the hiring managers) would cleanse the system of racism and sexism, then institutional racism/sexism does not exist. However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all hiring managers with people known to not be racist or sexist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist/sexist here), then institutional racism and sexism exists.
With that in mind, how do you know institutional racism and sexism is the problem here?
Poppycock. <aside: I am so glad that word was created>

Institutional racism is not defined as you suggest. Institutional racism is when the institution provides opportunity for human beings to exercise their racism in the administration of the institution.

For instance, if a company accepts applications for jobs but doesn't black out the name of the applicant (applicant names provides zero information as to the qualification of the applicant) before the person makes a decision on the application, institutional racism exists. Studies have been done which indicates that the EXACT applications with a white name gets more attention than when it is submitted with a minority name. The INSTITUTION provided the opportunity for an individual to exercise racism.

Another for instance, laws which allow judges to give people convicted of crimes variable sentences is the institution providing individuals the opportunity to exercise racism. That is how a rich white kid can get probation for a drug offence which usually results in a poor Black kid getting a thirty year sentence. The INSTITUTION provided the means for racism to be exercised in its name.

America is a master at creating 'equality' which is not equal at all. It is the responsibility of the institution to create its rules in a manner in which racism (or sexism) is simply not possible. Then it doesn't matter whether the person administering the rules is a racist or not because they are expected to follow the rules applied to them or they get fired.
 
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