How to know that homosexuality is a sin, for certain?

ewq1938 · Sep 18, 2019

Mark51 said:
The Scriptures offer no apologies, no concessions, or no ambiguity to fornication because they are all repulsive in God’s sight. Consequently, true Christians do not water down the Bible’s position on “disgraceful sexual appetites” merely to become more popular or more acceptable to modern cultures.

One thing to remember is that homosexuality is more than just one sin since it's homosexuality AND fornication, and (if sexual) sex outside of marriage etc etc...

Mark51 · Sep 19, 2019

Thank you for the reply. However, I thought that I was clear that all sexual activity-out side the marriage-is fornication and detestable to Almighty God.

ewq1938 · Sep 19, 2019

Mark51 said:
Thank you for the reply. However, I thought that I was clear that all sexual activity-out side the marriage-is fornication and detestable to Almighty God.

Yep. My point is that homosexuality is an extra sin on top of a sin or sins two heterosexuals would be committing.

Example: man and woman have sex but aren't married- that's fornication.
Two men have sex and that's not only fornication but homosexuality also so more sin is involved.

It's all sinful stuff but there is a little more sin involved when it's homosexual in nature.

Mark51 · Sep 20, 2019

Thank you for the clairification.

A.ModerateOne · Sep 20, 2019

Andrewn said:
The question is what sexual acts are considered inappropriate contenteya / fornication / immorality in the Bible?

The way to answer this question is to check the Torah. Obviously, homosexual practice is listed among immoral sexual acts in the Torah. In 1Co 6:9, in addition to fornication in general, adultery and homosexual practices receive a specific mention for emphasis.

Andrew, I'm not following you about the Torah. The first time "fornication" is found in the LXX is the following:

"And it came to pass after three months, that it was told Judas, saying, Thamar thy daughter-in-law has grievously played the harlot, and behold she is with child by whoredom(πορνεία inappropriate contenteia/fornication); and Judas said, Bring her out, and let her be burnt." (Gen 38:24, LXXE)

I do not find "fornication" in the OT where the genders are shown as male to male. I checked the Jewish Encyclopedia on fornication and it talks about nothing but the M-F relationships nothing about M-M.
FORNICATION - JewishEncyclopedia.com

You have used the modern translation wording "immoral sexual acts" and that is about as meaningless as can be imagined, and that is the problem, it invites very imaginative ideas about what it means. You write that the translations that use the word "homosexuals" are for emphasis and I do not follow you there either. If it is for emphasis, it means it is emphatically not "fornication".

Andrewn · Sep 20, 2019

A.ModerateOne said:
I do not find "fornication" in the OT where the genders are shown as male to male. I checked the Jewish Encyclopedia on fornication and it talks about nothing but the M-F relationships nothing about M-M. FORNICATION - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Some time ago, I looked up the usage of "inappropriate contenteya" in the LXX. Most occurrences there are related to sacred prostitution and idolatry. Also, the definition in the Jewish Encyclopedia is quite limited.

Most theologians agree that "inappropriate contenteya" is used in the NT as a generic term for illegitimate sexual activity. This NT generic term includes a variety of sexual activities that were listed and prohibited in the Torah, especially in Leviticus, even though the term "inappropriate contenteya" is not used to describe these activities in the LXX. Among those activities are adultery and homosexual practices.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,

In 1Co 6:9, generic fornication is mentioned (which includes adultery and homosexual activity). In addition, adultery and homosexual practices receive a specific mention to emphasize their sinfulness. But in several NT lists of sins we find only inappropriate contenteya / fornication mentioned, e.g.

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the abominable, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars shall have their portion in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.”

In this list, adulterers are not mentioned. Should we conclude that fornication is more serious than adultery? Of course not. Adulterers, practicing homosexuals, pedophiles, and those who practice inappropriate behavior with animals are automatically included in the category of fornicators and did not need to be mentioned separately.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 20, 2019

A.ModerateOne said:
Where in the Scriptures do you find fornication applying to any other than opposite sexes, setting aside the figurative use for idolatry, and even then the symbolism is bride and groom? Is there a verse somewhere talking about two men having sex and it being referred to as "fornication"?

Another question based on the following verse:

"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites," (1Cor 6:9, NRSV)

Here "fornicators" is explicitly distinguished from "male prostitutes, sodomites" in this translation. How can that be if men having sex with men is "fornication"?

I see this in Greek-English Lexicons but I have yet to find it in the Bible. Am I overlooking a passage in the Scripture?

Romans 1:26-27 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.

Lust usually goes first in those cases.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 20, 2019

read to here

hedrick · Sep 20, 2019

I think the original question is what Jesus would have meant. Or more precisely, what the Greek translations of his teaching mean, since we don't know the precise words he used. The OT and even the LXX are useful, but the real question is what the word meant in the 1st Cent. That's why people consult lexicons and not the OT.

I use the Theological Dictionary of the NT. This very extensive lexicon shows word usage in the secular world, the OT, literature between the testaments, and the NT. In the case of inappropriate contenteia, they cite examples to show that by the 1st Cent it was used for all sex outside marriage, including same-gender sex.

However the word is actually pretty rare in Jesus teaching. There is also context for almost all occurrences in Jesus' teaching that allow us to determine a more specific meaning.

Mat 5:32 and 19:9 are pretty clearly adultery or at least something inappropriate within marriage.
Luke 15:30 is pretty clearly prostitution.
Mat 12:31-32 is generally understood from context to be prostitutes.
Mat 15:19 || Mark 7:21 is the only reference that might be generic. However the version of the list in Matthew seems to correspond to sins in the 10 commandments. That would imply that it means adultery. If you think he has misinterpreted Mark, then Mark would be the only reference whose context doesn't specify a meaning. In that case you could use the general 1st Cent meaning.

I am speaking here specifically of Jesus' use of the term. This analysis doesn't apply to other NT books. But there had been discussion about Jesus' own teaching. In sin lists outside the Gospels, the common 1st Cent meaning may well be appropriate.

A.ModerateOne · Sep 20, 2019

Andrewn said:
Some time ago, I looked up the usage of "inappropriate contenteya" in the LXX. Most occurrences there are related to sacred prostitution and idolatry. Also, the definition in the Jewish Encyclopedia is quite limited.

Most theologians agree that "inappropriate contenteya" is used in the NT as a generic term for illegitimate sexual activity. This NT generic term includes a variety of sexual activities that were listed and prohibited in the Torah, especially in Leviticus, even though the term "inappropriate contenteya" is not used to describe these activities in the LXX. Among those activities are adultery and homosexual practices.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,

In 1Co 6:9, generic fornication is mentioned (which includes adultery and homosexual activity). In addition, adultery and homosexual practices receive a specific mention to emphasize their sinfulness. But in several NT lists of sins we find only inappropriate contenteya / fornication mentioned, e.g.

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the abominable, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars shall have their portion in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.”

In this list, adulterers are not mentioned. Should we conclude that fornication is more serious than adultery? Of course not. Adulterers, practicing homosexuals, pedophiles, and those who practice inappropriate behavior with animals are automatically included in the category of fornicators and did not need to be mentioned separately.

Andrew, I'm going to explain why I find this important and refuse to leave what the Scriptures themselves clearly state. I was in high school in the late 1950's, born and raised in church, a Christian guy. My personal dictionary was a Random House College dictionary. It defined fornication and adultery both as sins specifically between males and females in reference to marriage, which at the time was indeed m-f. I'll give you an example of how it was usually seen in the past.

"noun The act of illicit sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person with a person of the opposite sex, whether married or unmarried."
and
"noun Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery."
fornication - definition and meaning

If you check those two dictionaries you'll see they are older, not dictionaries of today.

The Stonewall Riot in 1969 was the beginning of gay activism. Gay's began to think of each other as spouses, and began to refer to each other in those terms. Gradually, the sins that historically been defined in reference to marriage, which was m-f, these sin labels began to be used by gays for their unions. It was after that it seemed that the Christians gradually joined with them and started calling homosexuality "fornication".

Guess what then happened? Once the church started applying sins that previously pertained to marriage, to the gays; the church had lost credibility to have any power to oppose the perversion of marriage by legalizing same-sex marriage. I am speaking from personal observation over my lifetime, not from any particular study. I prefer to stick with the clear, plain statements of Scripture and on this topic, I choose translations prior to 1946, such as the KJV, ASV before modern sexual terms of psychology began to be read into the Scriptures.

"Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other." (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

In closing I suggest caution with some reference works such as those claiming to be "Strong's" or "Thayers", especially on our computer Bibles. The following is the definition of arsenokoites: in the computer Thayers:

"one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual"

The definition in my unabridged, hardcover Thayers reads:

"one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite"

Andrewn · Sep 21, 2019

hedrick said:
The OT and even the LXX are useful, but the real question is what the word meant in the 1st Cent. That's why people consult lexicons and not the OT. I use the Theological Dictionary of the NT. This very extensive lexicon shows word usage in the secular world, the OT, literature between the testaments, and the NT. In the case of inappropriate contenteia, they cite examples to show that by the 1st Cent it was used for all sex outside marriage, including same-gender sex. . . . In sin lists outside the Gospels, the common 1st Cent meaning may well be appropriate.

It is reassuring when two different method reach similar conclusions. I have a tendency to skip steps when solving a problem. Certainly, studying common 1st century application is essential.

Andrewn · Sep 21, 2019

A.ModerateOne said:
I'm going to explain why I find this important and refuse to leave what the Scriptures themselves clearly state.

Informative historical review. You showed that the meaning of "fornication" has changed over the last decades. One can similarly see that the meaning of "inappropriate contenteya" changed from being restricted to "prostitution" in the LXX to being more of a generic term in the NT inclusive of the illegitimate sexual practices described in the book of Leviticus.

A.ModerateOne said:
I suggest caution with some reference works such as those claiming to be "Strong's" or "Thayers", especially on our computer Bibles.

It's so easy, tempting, and immoral to make changes in electronic versions of books.

concretecamper · Oct 1, 2019

IMO, any so called Church that condones homosexual activity is from Satan...period.

Not David · Oct 1, 2019

DaughterOfChrist0 said:
Hello everyone. I’m trying to understand the Scripture’s stance on homosexuality, and am praying that God will move it in the hearts of Christians with a deeper understanding of scripture than I to aid me in this difficult time in my life.

Almost a year ago now, I ended an 8 year same-sex relationship. I loved my partner and wanted to be with her forever, but I felt so guilty at the thought of living in a way that Jesus would not approve of. I didn’t want to forever have a wall between us because I was hurting him by sinning in my relationship every day. So I ended the relationship. For a long time, I was in utter agony. But then I began to do better, focusing on seeking God every day.

However still I would catch myself daydreaming of what could’ve been, if only I’d been allowed to stay with her. Well, recently, we spoke and I discovered that she has moved on to another same-sex relationship, and she said she is no longer in love with me. Although we left things on a friendly note, my heart is aching, and I’m embarrassed that after so long, a part of me still hasn’t let go. I’ve realized where I’ve gone wrong.

In the garden of Eden, Eve was vulnerable to the serpent’s deception because she was unclear about the Word of God. God said not to eat of the fruit of tree, but never said not to touch the tree like she claimed he had, so when Satan said, you surely will not die, and she touched the tree and nothing changed, she must have instantly lost belief in the Word. If Satan can make us confused about God’s Word, or doubt God’s Word, we are vulnerable.

I constantly question what the Word says about homosexuality. I’m willing to say it’s a sin. I’m willing to confess that I’ve struggled with it and turned away. I’m willing to give up anything for Him. I am not by any means trying to see how much I can get away with, I never want to live that way. If I could say to myself without a doubt that God’s Word says NO to homosexuality, then I could be sure that nothing good could ever have come from remaining in the relationship, and I can move on. But because a part of me has always doubted this deep down, a part of me was always daydreaming. Wondering if maybe my family could have come to accept us. Missing all of our times together, our old routines, not letting go of gifts from them, hanging on and hanging on and hanging on. Giving almost my whole self to God, but with one foot still in my past. For the past year, I focused on getting to know and serving and loving God, and didn’t give as much focus to understanding what He says about homosexuality. Now, I think I need to do this, or else I will remain vulnerable in this area.

There are so many things that make homosexuality being a sin seem unclear. People talk about the word ‘homosexuality’ not having even existed back then. When I looked at the parts of the Bible where the act of homosexuality is described rather than just called ‘homosexuality’ I found that in the original Greek wording of Paul’s writings, it was summarized in one word, a word that one commentary claimed meant homosexual relationships, whereas another commentary claimed it meant ‘effeminate men.’ I feel so guilty because in my heart I feel homosexuality must be a sin. All signs point to yes. But I don’t want to rely on signs or theories. I don’t want to feel unsure of what I should say when people ask me if it’s a sin, and then in turn wonder if I made a mistake by leaving my relationship. I don’t want to tell people “I left to play it safe, but I don’t actually know if it’s a sin, I just couldn’t risk it.” I want to be able to say, “I left because it is a sin and I want nothing to come before Christ in my life. I want to serve Him as best as I can.” But when I say this, there is a small part of me that always wonders, IS it a sin?

I’m in such heart ache, but I feel I cannot fully avoid the temptation of calling my ex and begging to give it another chance, to stop myself from wondering and wondering, until I can say to myself I did the right thing. I did what God wanted me to do. I obeyed God’s Word.

I know many people will likely tell me “you either believe what it says or don’t” but I just feel so lost as to what it even truly says on this matter. Can someone tell me, how do you KNOW with 100 percent certainty that it is a sin? I want to know too. I’m willing to give up ANYTHING for God. I just want to strengthen my knowledge of the Sword of the Spirit on this matter so that Satan cannot disarm me. So that I’m no longer vulnerable. If anyone could take the time to help me by explaining, or by praying for me on this matter, there aren’t words to describe the gratitude I would have.

(Please do not give an answer without scripture to support it. For example, if someone, even with the best intentions, were to write ‘in my opinion I think God is okay with it’ it would be really hurtful to me right now and only add to my temptation to return to my old ways. I’m seeking God’s Word so that I know what He wants me to do. I say this as kind as I can, but please, no opinions.)

You will need to know what is the goal of a relationship and marriage. Marriage is a mystery in which God imparts us grace.

How to know that homosexuality is a sin, for certain?

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