Are We Too Smart for Our Own Good?

Healing with Jesus · Sep 18, 2019

TraceMalin said:
I often don't recognize the Christian community any more. I grew up in what my former neighbor called, "The Perfect Childhood." Our neighborhood was a development in the Poconos, surrounded by woods, about 20 minutes from the city of Scranton and 30 minutes from Stroudsburg. We had hills that were perfect for skateboarding and sleigh riding. Everyone went to a traditional church such as Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian. We had a few Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses at school. I never spoke to a classmate who wasn't a Christian. Not that there weren't any, I'm sure. I just never met anyone in my school in a religious discussion who didn't believe. We were raised with lots of respect for one another and for adults. Sure. We were kids and could be mean and disrespectful and scolded all the way to age 18. Families were always outside. Kids played freely far afield. We went to church, Boy & Girl Scouts, Sunday School, and Bible School. Our faith was a given. Churches were full. Parking was at a premium. Everyone would go to one another's spaghetti dinners, ham dinners, chicken dinners, fish fries, and the Catholic fair. We'd tease the kids that came back to school with "dirt" on their heads on Ash Wednesday. Christmas and Halloween were giant community events. We even had costume parties in school and in church. We trick or treated 3 times. School, church, Halloween night. Christmas was as huge in school as it was in church and at home. When something bad happened, kids not in your social circle showed up with hugs and help. I never had an argument with anyone about theology until I dated a flight attendant from Colorado who was so into Jesus as to be impossible to date. She freaked out when I watched war movies, horror movies, and lost her mind when we watched, "Monty Python's The Meaning of Life." Good thing we didn't watch "The Life of Brian." EVERYTHING was something that required prayer and scrutiny. She attended Marilyn Hickey's church, worked for Focus on the Family, and gave her widow's mite to con-artist evangelists such as Robert Tilton. Her kids would go to hell for trick or treating. Nothing I ever did was Christian enough. We broke up. I thought that was just a fluke. But, as I meet more and more mega church Christians, non-denominational, and younger believers I encounter varying degrees of "over the top" belief where everything is Jesus ALL the time, but the actions don't back up the teachings. It's like they wear themselves out with incessant worship by loving Jesus and have no energy left to put Christian principles into practice by loving others. I'm not criticizing every mega, non-denominational, or other church. I just find something going on today that was never part of a giant Christian community that was what we shared in the entire Pocono region. Churches seem to pit their congregation against others. My friend, Laura, became a Christian at a mega church after we attended the same Catholic college. She went from a normal girl to almost cultic. She would run into me, look at me like a cult follower, and ask with great concern and sternness that would make a nun flinch, "How is your walk with God?" My cave diving buddy goes to a mega church in NJ and will only listen to Christian music when we drive in his truck. "Dude, seriously, Christian music kind of sucks." It is possible to listen to top rated hits that don't have sinful messages. But, he wouldn't let me make a playlist of songs that were clean and wholesome. Even "Turn! Turn! Turn!" right from the Bible by the Byrds was cancel cultured because they weren't walking a Christian walk and you can judge their art by their works. My favorite country artist was Chris Ledoux who was a rodeo rider and singer who was a Christian. His music was out because a handful of his 80+ hits dealt with drinking, honky tonks, cheating, gambling, etc. You can judge Chris by his works apparently. So much judgment and strife in Christianity today. So much worship. No love, forgiveness, or chill pills. Just like America is living in a cold civil war of red vs. blue, in ways, Christianity has adopted an inquisition. We've lost the simple Christian life.

Very interesting and insightful comment. I would just like to say that the flight attendant and these other people aren't into Jesus. They're into a "Christian" lifestyle.

This is all-out spiritual warfare. The dark side is attempting to infiltrate the church.

I spent time at a church like this. Everyone asking how to pray for you, asking where you were if you skipped a Sunday, etc. Then when I was reeeally struggling... they let me fail, horribly.

That's not Jesus. Let's just go ahead and call it what it is: Evil masquerading as good.

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

Healing with Jesus said:
Let's just go ahead and call it what it is

Self

miamited · Sep 18, 2019

timothyu said:
If God is the opposite in ways of self serving man, how many will then be acceptable?

Hi timothyu,

OOOH-oooh I know!!! I know!!! Only as many who have believed God's word and trusted what He has promised us through His Son. Yes, God's kingdom is generally opposite of ours. Our pastor is right now going over the beattitudes. Blessed are the poor? Blessed are the weak and the humble? Blessed are those facing persecution for Jesus' name? That's certainly not what the world teaches us.

Around the world it's a blessing to be rich and powerful. Mighty and forceful. It's a curse to be poor and humble. I can't tell you how many parents I've heard tell a child that they need to stand up for themselves and don't let bullies push them around. If someone strikes you, pull your fist back and strike them back twice as hard. Make it hurt!!!!

That is just totally opposite of what God's word tells us that we should be. Jesus says to love our enemies. God's word says to be kind to your enemies and in showing that kindness you are heaping burning coals upon their heads. We are to love others as we love ourselves. The world teaches that it's ok to love others as we love ourselves...so long as they show their love first.

But a believer can choose not to strike back against those who persecute you. A born again believer can go to his death just as Jesus did. Uttering not a word of complaint. A born again believer can be mistreated and flogged and persecuted, and yet make not one complaint against his attackers. It's completely opposite of what the world would teach us.

Now, I certainly don't say this to infer that I have attained it. But I can read God's word, and while I'm still not fully faithful in all of this, I do know that it's what God asks of me.

John of the Revelation. According to church history was lowered into a vat of hot oil and preached the gospel as the oil came all the way up to his neck.

Stephen was stoned as he also proclaimed the Lord's death. Giving a complete account as the stones of punishment pummeled his body, of all that God, through Jesus, had done.

Most of us would be screaming bloody murder about how unfair and unrighteous it was. How we didn't deserve such treatment. We have rights!!!!! Drawing our last breath cursing our persecutors.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

miamited said:
Blessed are the poor? Blessed are the weak and the humble? Blessed are those facing persecution for Jesus' name?

Who's campaign promise is that?

derpytia · Sep 19, 2019

I used to frustrate my Sunday School teachers because I'd ask too many questions. I even had a fellow student who was a year older than me (I was 14 at the time rebuke me in front of the entire class for daring to ask why God decided upon certain things and gave Christian's certain rules and such. He said it wasn't my place to ask questions of God. His rebuke didn't shame me. It only made me angry with him.

I have a very hard time with not asking questions. I have a very inquisitive mind and I like to know the hows and whys of things as much as possible. However, God gave me this sort of mind and I no longer believe that God doesn't like people asking questions. God gave humans the ability to reason, think, and study. There's nothing wrong with being smart and trying to find answers.

The sad part is, at some point, you do have to realize that you may not get all the answers you're looking for. God can and does keep things to himself.

John P. Alexander · Sep 19, 2019

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man - and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

aiki · Sep 19, 2019

So, what should taking God seriously look like, exactly? You sound like you prefer a more...cultural expression of faith that serves as a sort of pleasant "ambient noise" to your life, not faith that actually constrains you, that orders your values and behaviour. It seems you think Christian faith is okay only so long as it's serving as an innocuous backdrop to the events of your life. If one takes one's faith too seriously, however, conforming one's behaviour to it in careful detail, placing God at the center of life, then one is being merely cultic. Have I got you right?

miamited · Sep 19, 2019

timothyu said:
Who's campaign promise is that?

Hi timothyu,

God's, through Jesus.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

TraceMalin · Sep 19, 2019

aiki said:
So, what should taking God seriously look like, exactly? You sound like you prefer a more...cultural expression of faith that serves as a sort of pleasant "ambient noise" to your life, not faith that actually constrains you, that orders your values and behaviour. It seems you think Christian faith is okay only so long as it's serving as an innocuous backdrop to the events of your life. If one takes one's faith too seriously, however, conforming one's behaviour to it in careful detail, placing God at the center of life, then one is being merely cultic. Have I got you right?

Not at all. I was trying to paint a picture of a life lived in balance.

Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. – Philippians 4:5 NKJV

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. – 1 Corinthians 9:25a NKJV

Addiction isn't necessarily confined to sex, drugs, alcohol, and gambling. We have the term, "workaholic" and we know that isn't healthy even if it produces good for society and provides for a family. Sure. There are some people who are going to dedicate themselves to their passions. For me, it was water and diving. When I had eye surgery, I was glad my doctor was one of the best in the USA with 57 patents on surgical equipment. My ministers were regular guys with a calling to serve the Lord. They weren't in preacher mode 24/7. My Presbyterian minister was also one of my baseball coaches and a die hard Phillies fan. His son, Jimmy, was in my graduating class. Jimmy watched the same TV shows and listened to the same music as every other kid. My Methodist minister was interested in all things military and became an Army chaplain. My college mentor, Father Robert J. Barone, was the Vatican's 4th most expert on the Apostle Paul and had a TV show on EWTN. He was the most approachable guy and an extremely beloved professor. Loved basketball, but like many priests whose lives are cloistered, he needed an outlet. He had a sports bookie. Much of Christianity comes from Paul. Including the idea that it is better not to be married to serve the Lord. Well, it's better not to be married if you are a Navy SEAL or a CEO, too. We take things too far. Father Barone was a celibate priest without a wife and family due to taking Paul's advice too far. It was Paul who told the churches to be filled with the Holy Spirit, but to be temperate and moderate. His letters were written to the church leaders. If the shepherds were to be filled with God, yet balanced, why not the flock? Your own profile page shows you have varied interests. Do you talk Jesus incessantly, or judge others on movies or songs, or are you a guy who is liked by even non-believers?

TraceMalin · Sep 19, 2019

The thread about Satan's greatest strength made me think about that idyllic childhood in a community that was almost entirely Christian. God's intent was that man enjoy living in a garden. When cast out due to sin, man entered a rough wilderness. The early church had to struggle to overcome a wilderness of sin and doubt. 2000 years later the dominance of Christianity made our region a bit of garden again. The more Christianity slips away, the more America is returning to a wilderness of sin and doubt where more teachings of the early church apply as Christians are once again persecuted.

lsume · Sep 19, 2019

Jamsie said:
So you disagree on this wider point: "...if we permit the whole collective thought of the nation or of the world to be controlled by ideas which, by the restless force of logic, prevent Christianity from being regarded as anything more than a harmless delusion."?
Acts 17:16-34
1 Peter 3:15

“If we submit everything to reason our religion will be left with nothing mysterious or supernatural. If we offend the principles of reason our religion will be absurd and ridiculous . . . There are two equally dangerous extremes: to exclude reason, to admit nothing but reason.” Pascal

Seek and you will find. In your seeking, you must follow the Way that Christ taught in your so doing. Becoming like a little child not relying on your intellect is one such requirement.

aiki · Sep 19, 2019

TraceMalin said:
Not at all. I was trying to paint a picture of a life lived in balance.

All right. Against what do you judge a life to be balanced? What's the critieria you use to do so? We judge a line to be crooked by comparison to a straight one. So, what's your "straight line" when it comes to a balanced life?

TraceMalin said:
My ministers were regular guys with a calling to serve the Lord. They weren't in preacher mode 24/7. My Presbyterian minister was also one of my baseball coaches and a die hard Phillies fan. His son, Jimmy, was in my graduating class. Jimmy watched the same TV shows and listened to the same music as every other kid. My Methodist minister was interested in all things military and became an Army chaplain. My college mentor, Father Robert J. Barone, was the Vatican's 4th most expert on the Apostle Paul and had a TV show on EWTN. He was the most approachable guy and an extremely beloved professor. Loved basketball, but like many priests whose lives are cloistered, he needed an outlet. He had a sports bookie.

And so? Are these examples of lives lived in "balance"? According to what and/or whom?

TraceMalin said:
Much of Christianity comes from Paul

I think I'd be more comfortable saying that Christianity came from Christ - even though Paul was doing the writing.

TraceMalin said:
Including the idea that it is better not to be married to serve the Lord. Well, it's better not to be married if you are a Navy SEAL or a CEO, too. We take things too far. Father Barone was a celibate priest without a wife and family due to taking Paul's advice too far.

Yes, we may take things too far. While Paul did say celibacy was an aid to serving the Lord wholeheartedly, he also wrote to Timothy that being married and a parent were prerequisites for being a "bishop" over any community of believers. In the book of Proverbs, the finding of a wife is said to be a good thing (Proverbs 18:22). Marriage, the Bible also indicates, serves as a picture of Christ's love for his Bride, the Church (Ephesians 5:25-33). So, if Father Barone has gone too far, it isn't because the Bible urged him to do so. Scripture urges the very opposite to men concerning marriage - especially to those in ministry (1 Timothy 3:1-5).

TraceMalin said:
It was Paul who told the churches to be filled with the Holy Spirit, but to be temperate and moderate. His letters were written to the church leaders. If the shepherds were to be filled with God, yet balanced, why not the flock?

And in regard to what did Paul recommend temperance and moderation? Remember, Paul was the one who wrote, "For to me to live is Christ." (Philippians 1:21) He went so far in his faith as to be executed for it. In the NKJV, the word "gentleness" is used in Philippians 4:5, not "moderation." It is in the older KJV version that "moderation" is used. Of the some sixty or so English versions of the Bible, only maybe half a dozen (or less) use the word "moderation." The great majority of the rest use "gentleness" or "forbearance." Paul, then, isn't meaning to say believers ought to be moderate in their faith but gentle, patient, forbearing, kind in their character.

As for the athlete analogy Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, the opposite of balanced living is in view. An athlete who wishes to win, Paul wrote, must bring all of his life into subjection to his training ("must be temperate in all things"). A radical singularity of focus and a severe treatment of the body is necessary to winning, which is what Paul is wanting to draw out of the analogy and apply to the "race" the Christian believer is "running." Paul, then, isn't actually urging the "balanced" life you seem to think he is. And so it is we read from Paul things like the following:

2 Timothy 4:6-8
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Philippians 3:7-8
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

2 Corinthians 11:23-28
23 Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often.
24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one.
25 Three times I was I beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness—
28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.

How does Paul's life fit your idea of a balanced life? His life was literally consumed by his love and service to Christ.

Jamsie · Sep 19, 2019

lsume said:
Seek and you will find. In your seeking, you must follow the Way that Christ taught in your so doing. Becoming like a little child not relying on your intellect is one such requirement.

Thank you, but this is not the point that was being made. One should note that the greatest commandment includes the "mind". One can make a distinction between personal salvation and submission to God through Christ Jesus with a clear understanding of Ecc. 3:11 and for such as Plantinga, Craig, Swinebourne, Feser...and to CS Lewis or Chesterton. Is Zacharias wrong to name his ministry "Let my people think"? What is the relevance of 1 Peter 3:15, give "answer/defend"?

Perhaps I did not understand the OP, but it seems to me that Christians should not subscribe to anti-intellectualism. Becoming a child does not mean to jettison "mind", the only way that we can know God is because he gave us mind and reason. What does Paul mean by "milk" and "meat"?

TraceMalin · Sep 19, 2019

aiki said:
All right. Against what do you judge a life to be balanced? What's the critieria you use to do so? We judge a line to be crooked by comparison to a straight one. So, what's your "straight line" when it comes to a balanced life?

A straight line is a good measure of a righteous man vs. a crooked man, but not a measure of the balance of time devoted to God, family, work, play, and sleep. One problem I've noticed today that did not exist in Christian conversations in the past is "burnout." Burnout was not even common among clergy and church leadership. Sometimes, those who volunteered could have too much piled on them. But, now, individual Christians report burnout. Things are not balanced when "too much religion" or "too much Jesus" drives people from Him. It's not a crisis of faith. After years of teaching Sunday School, being in a choir, substituting to play the organ, and ending up Deacon, my mother stopped going to church because there was always some other demand on her. My ex-girlfriend, Darla, the flight attendant, could make her mother who was actively involved in the church, reach her breaking point and drive her father to hide in his glass blowing workshop. Did Darla's mother not love Jesus? Or, can you love someone very much, but need time apart as well? If we have a relationship with God, every Christian is different in his or her relationship with the Divine. In human relationships, we kind of know how much time is too much together. If I said my girlfriend was clingy, you'd probably understand what that means. I'm sure if a study was done on devotional time per week, psychologists could determine how much time empowers congregants vs. how much starts to turn them away.

Paul was a missionary. His letters were written to church leaders. Paul's world was a dangerous one for the church. He needed to resolve disputes and encourage devotion and faith. If you read my books on diving or my emails back and forth with the president of the training agency for which I was last training director, you'd think nothing else existed in our lives. My boss went to seminary, but you'd never know it from our emails and it rarely came up in work. I know he has a family and religious life outside running a training agency. Once in awhile, I'd call him with a prayer request. I would never expect the same devotion to diving from the recreational divers we taught as from a professional. I would expect the clergy to be far more devoted to their duties than the congregants. But, even an obsessive missionary like Paul could also remind church leaders to be moderate.

It's not easy to define, but it seemed the church on Sunday morning, daily devotional time, school/work, and weekend play kept the pews full until the hippy movement rejected everything in America but themselves in protest of the Vietnam War and produced even more selfish kids.

aiki · Sep 19, 2019

TraceMalin said:
A straight line is a good measure of a righteous man vs. a crooked man, but not a measure of the balance of time devoted to God, family, work, play, and sleep.

I think you misunderstood me. I was using a "straight line" as a metaphor for the criteria by which you determine what is balanced living and what is not. Do you have such a criteria? How are you deciding that a life is imbalanced, exactly? By what standard do you measure this?

TraceMalin said:
Things are not balanced when "too much religion" or "too much Jesus" drives people from Him.

I'm not clear on what you mean here. How can one have "too much Jesus"? I don't encounter such a notion anywhere in Scripture. Instead, the Bible indicates that Christ is the very life of a believer and that they can do nothing without him. (John 15:4-5)

TraceMalin said:
Or, can you love someone very much, but need time apart as well?

I'm afraid you're comparing apples to oranges here. My relationship with God is not like my relationship to fellow humans. For starters, my very existence is dependent upon Him; He is, in a very literal sense, my life. God is perfect, too, without the failings that prompt spouses to take "time outs" from each other. What's more, in Scripture, I am told that the First and Great Commandment is to love God with all my being (Matthew 22:46-48). Doing this requires that I die to myself, to my wants, and goals, and will, and live in sacrificial service to God. (Matthew 16:24-25; John 12:24) I don't see, then, that I should want or need time out from walking with God.

TraceMalin said:
If we have a relationship with God, every Christian is different in his or her relationship with the Divine.

Well, yes and no. The Bible indicates there are parameters common to all relationships humans have with God. My path along which I travel with God may not be exactly the same as the next person's, but there are spiritual principles, commands, and truths upon which all relationships with God rest.

TraceMalin said:
In human relationships, we kind of know how much time is too much together.

While this may be so among fallible humans, it is not true of a healthy walk with God. The better a person knows and loves God, who is perfect, the more time they want to devote to Him.

TraceMalin said:
Paul was a missionary. His letters were written to church leaders.

Not exclusively.

TraceMalin said:
Paul's world was a dangerous one for the church.

Much of the Early Church suffered fatal persecution. Paul's "dangerous world," then, was not entirely unique.

TraceMalin said:
I would expect the clergy to be far more devoted to their duties than the congregants. But, even an obsessive missionary like Paul could also remind church leaders to be moderate.

What is God's expectation of His children? Does Scripture indicate that believers not in roles of ministry could be less devoted to God? Where is that written, exactly?

As I pointed out in my last post to you, Paul does not actually urge "moderation" upon church leaders. In his comments in 2 Corinthians 9:24-27, he urged the very opposite: a radical and singular devotion to "running the Christian race." He certainly never teaches in his letters that a believer could be too devoted to God.

TraceMalin said:
It's not easy to define, but it seemed the church on Sunday morning, daily devotional time, school/work, and weekend play kept the pews full until the hippy movement rejected everything in America but themselves in protest of the Vietnam War and produced even more selfish kids.

I think what's happened over the last sixty or so years is a steady juvenilization of the Church in North America. With this juvenilization has come a growing spiritual apathyl. In an attempt to make up this deficit of knowledge and overcome apathy, many modern "Christians" have turned to a very sensual pursuit of God offered to them in the hyper-charismatic subculture of Christianity. But this type of "Christianity" is moralistic, and unbiblical, and exhausting and its leaving many Christians badly bruised and very cynical toward the faith. Perhaps this is the imbalance that you're seeing.

Anguspure · Sep 20, 2019

TraceMalin said:
When I started college, I was a disgruntled 18 year-old who was unhappy that I wasn't in the US Army where I belonged. My mother was a college professor who had free tuition benefits for her kids. My dad, a former US Marine, said the only thing being a paratrooper would get me was 3 hots, a cot, and a broken ankle. My parents convinced me to go to college and then I could become an officer. So, there I was as a psychology major because the green berets were also a unit that employed psychological warfare.

My first philosophy class dealt with Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle. Wow! I loved philosophy. I loved history of the ancient world. Growing up in a Christian home, I also loved religious studies classes. I was a Protestant so it was almost culture shock to be taught by nuns and priests getting used to hearing, "the Blessed Mother," and other distinctly Catholic terminology. My father had been Roman Catholic, but we only attended my mother's Methodist then Presbyterian churches.

I developed very close relationships with my professors in English, philosophy, and religious studies. I changed my major to English then stayed from 1986 to 1993 earning degrees in all three disciplines. My mind was hungry and on fire to learn from professors and challenge them back in an exciting academic environment.

According to the Principle of Primacy, the things learned first are retained the most. I remember more about Plato's Apology than I do about Immanuel Kant. I remember more about Jesus from Sunday School than I do from a 400 level class in Jesus and the Early Church.

I enjoyed the wisdom and simplicity of the Greek philosophers. These were the elite of their time. Yet, they were not at a Kantian level. The Greeks were the ones to whom Paul brought Christ. Paul was the Ph.D. of his time. Jesus, on the other hand, spoke to the poorly educated. His own disciples were often confused by his teachings and parables which seem obvious to us today. Yet, God chose these fishermen, tax collectors, and others to teach the message of salvation instead of the most learned temple priests, judges, or rabbis. Their words were easily understood by shepherds, laborers, craftsmen, soldiers, mothers, and others who didn't study the Tanakh in a formal way.

The message of the "Good News" is meant for all -- even the little children, so that all who hear may choose to come to Jesus. Yet, 2000 years of Western civilization, Catholic political reign in Europe, Protestant reformers, pulpits of preachers, ratings of televangelists, and writings of scholars have found the great theological minds and the worst mega-church motivational speakers in disagreement. As the Bible is scoured and dissected to find a more truthful truth, modern intellectualism leaves Christians worried they may not be saved enough. Bible study is important, but so is the simplicity of salvation. How do we overcome our obfuscation of a message even a child can understand as we seek to grow in knowledge? Do we spend too much time looking for deeper meaning rather than reading simple stories in simple context? Christianity began as an oral tradition. Early Christians were unburdened by Bible study and rejoiced in a simple faith often learned by listening only once to Peter. A shepherd could return the fields or a soldier to his cohort forever changed and at peace in his heart.

"The only thing that counts in Christ is faith expressing itself in Love."
Child like and simple indeed.

Perhaps our intellect is better used to defend the Kingdom against those who would confuse those of simple faith into believing that they must shoulder a bigger burden than that of Loving Him and/by Loving our neighbour.

Look at the way Yeshua was towards the intellectuals of the day. He had an astounding and deep intellectual understanding of everything they stood for, after all it was He who inspired it all in the first place. But in His supreme understanding He proclaimed "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

He welcomed the down to earth sinners and had very little but strong admonishment and vitriol for the smarty pants who used his superior intellect to lord it over and dominate His children.

TraceMalin · Sep 20, 2019

aiki said:
I think you misunderstood me. I was using a "straight line" as a metaphor for the criteria by which you determine what is balanced living and what is not. Do you have such a criteria? How are you deciding that a life is imbalanced, exactly? By what standard do you measure this?

I knew you were using it as a metaphor. I cannot relate to a straight line as a measure of balance. For example, I became a personal trainer for a couple of years. I can imagine using a scale to balance how much rest vs. how much exercise, how much strength vs. how much cardio, etc. If you mean something like the line that is used in the Media Bias/Fact Check website that rates politics from extreme left to extreme right,I can't really express the balance I'm talking about using a linear visual.

I'm not clear on what you mean here. How can one have "too much Jesus"? I don't encounter such a notion anywhere in Scripture. Instead, the Bible indicates that Christ is the very life of a believer and that they can do nothing without him. (John 15:4-5)

There's a song called Too Much Jesus (Not Enough Whiskey) by Mighty Sam McClain

Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
You ran all of your friends away
Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
That's all you ever had to say
Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
The only thing on your mind
Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
Don't be sittin' 'round cryin'

Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
You ran all of your friends away
Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
That's all you ever had to say
Too much Jesus (Not enough Whiskey)
The only thing on your mind
Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
Don't be sittin' 'round cryin'

Jesus told you a long time ago
Pick up your cross and follow me
Now you ask yourself, "What's wrong?"
It's right there in your song
Too much Jesus; Just a little bit too much
Too much Jesus; Oh! It's a little bit too much

You been walking this road for a real long time
Trying to keep a cool head; trying to keep a sound mind
You don't care what they may say
Because you know Jesus is the only way
You stopped doing this; You stopped doing that
You used to be fun until the party was done
But, when I look at you, Lord, now what do I see?
I see my reflection looking back at me

Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
You ran all of your friends away
Too much Jesus (Not enough whiskey)
Cuz' that's all you ever had to say
Too much Jesus...
Too much Jesus ...
Too much Jesus ... Oh! Just a little bit too much
Too much Jesus ... Ha! Ha! Just a little bit too much, my friend
Too much Jesus is all you ever had to say
Too much Jesus ... Bring something to drink in here, man!
Ain't you got some whiskey back there?
You what? You got some wine?
We'll, I'll drink a little wine! Give me some of that!
I'm tired, you know? But, Jesus drank ... Ha! Ha! Ha!

While this song is about a conversion from sinful behavior to Christianity that has made the narrator into a party-pooper, and perhaps a witness for Christ, driving his friends away, ending in a lonely fall back into the bottle rather than continued faith, it is possible to drive Christians away if you talk about Jesus too much and if your behavior when talking about Jesus is somehow a turn-off to other Christians. Some Christians can't help but preach to the choir until the choir needs to tune them out.

Most of us have non-believing friends who tell us to shut up about God or Christ. If you become a Christian, you may lose some of your friends. But, we don't often consider that we can burn out our Christian friends too.

The more we talk about Jesus, the more likely we are to disagree. The more likely we are to disagree, the more likely we are to judge. The more likely we are to judge one another, the more likely Christians will walk away from us. Timing is often everything. I'm sure that was one of Jesus' strengths. Knowing when, to whom, and how to speak, when to say much, when to say little, augmented by the truth of His message gathered so many followers in a short time. Take this message board for example. People can come here when they want to talk about Jesus or ask for prayers. If you need to step away for any reason, you can. While Jesus may always be with you and on your mind. Stepping away from other Christians allows for a personal healing time with Christ without the drama of other people.

I'm afraid you're comparing apples to oranges here. My relationship with God is not like my relationship to fellow humans. For starters, my very existence is dependent upon Him; He is, in a very literal sense, my life. God is perfect, too, without the failings that prompt spouses to take "time outs" from each other. What's more, in Scripture, I am told that the First and Great
Commandment is to love God with all my being (Matthew 22:46-48). Doing this requires that I die to myself, to my wants, and goals, and will, and live in sacrificial service to God. (Matthew 16:24-25; John 12:24) I don't see, then, that I should want or need time out from walking with God.

It was probably a bad example. I feel the presence of Christ all the time. I talk to God constantly through an internal dialogue. Sometimes, I just don't want to talk about it. I bet I'm not alone.

Well, yes and no. The Bible indicates there are parameters common to all relationships humans have with God. My path along which I travel with God may not be exactly the same as the next person's, but there are spiritual principles, commands, and truths upon which all relationships with God rest.

Agreed.

While this may be so among fallible humans, it is not true of a healthy walk with God. The better a person knows and loves God, who is perfect, the more time they want to devote to Him.

But, we each have our own ways of expressing that.

Not exclusively.

Agreed.

Much of the Early Church suffered fatal persecution. Paul's "dangerous world," then, was not entirely unique.

While Christianity in North America is under attack, I think most individual Christians are persecuted and bullied by other Christians.

What is God's expectation of His children? Does Scripture indicate that believers not in roles of ministry could be less devoted to God? Where is that written, exactly?

"Father, it's been 8 years since my last confession." I'm sure that person is still a Christian. It's not written. It's basic human psychology. I guarantee you'll find a greater number of more devoted clergy per clergymen than you'll find congregants per congregant. If a priest said he hadn't confessed his sins or spoken to God in 8 years, I'd be surprised. A guy who is just a Catholic, not so much. One of my lacrosse teammates claimed to have had perfect mass attendance. God expects a lot from us and we fall short in many ways.

As I pointed out in my last post to you, Paul does not actually urge "moderation" upon church leaders. In his comments in 2 Corinthians 9:24-27, he urged the very opposite: a radical and singular devotion to "running the Christian race." He certainly never teaches in his letters that a believer could be too devoted to God.

Paul is definitely not an example of a guy who is trying to juggle church, wife, kids, career, and a retirement plan. I think, like Jesus, he knew he might be on a special mission.

I think what's happened over the last sixty or so years is a steady juvenilization of the Church in North America. With this juvenilization has come a growing spiritual apathyl. In an attempt to make up this deficit of knowledge and overcome apathy, many modern "Christians" have turned to a very sensual pursuit of God offered to them in the hyper-charismatic subculture of
Christianity. But this type of "Christianity" is moralistic, and unbiblical, and exhausting and its leaving many Christians badly bruised and very cynical ward the faith. Perhaps this is the imbalance that you're seeing.

I was talking to my girlfriend about it on the phone tonight. She grew up in Los Angeles and went to Catholic school before going to a state college. Even though we were on opposite coasts we had very similar experiences. She suggested what I might be trying to say is that things that were once personal are now public. Politics, sexual orientation, and religious views ... the things that we tempered in conversation are now thrust in everyones' faces. When someone said, "I'm a Christian," we took it at face value. Now, it's not uncommon for Christians to begin an inquisition of other Christians. My buddy, who only listens to Christian music, thinks the Catholics are going to Hell.

Christians Persecuting Other Christians

aiki · Sep 20, 2019

TraceMalin said:
I knew you were using it as a metaphor. I cannot relate to a straight line as a measure of balance.

This is what I mean by misunderstanding my metaphor. I'm not using it to describe the way in which you judge a life to be balanced or not, but as a description of the standard by which you do so, the criteria you use to determine the balance of a life. If it helps to think of my question in terms of a scale, that's fine. If the scale represents the criteria you use to assess a life as balanced or not, what constitutes that criteria, exactly? On what basis can you properly assert that someone's life is in balance (or not)?

TraceMalin said:
While this song is about a conversion from sinful behavior to Christianity that has made the narrator into a party-pooper, and perhaps a witness for Christ, driving his friends away, ending in a lonely fall back into the bottle rather than continued faith, it is possible to drive Christians away if you talk about Jesus too much and if your behavior when talking about Jesus is somehow a turn-off to other Christians. Some Christians can't help but preach to the choir until the choir needs to tune them out.

I don't take my spiritual truth from a pop song. Personally, I found the song kind of offensive. It preaches a message that is the exact opposite of what I find in Scripture. As far as the Bible is concerned, there can never be too much Jesus:

Colossians 1:6-7
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

That some "Christians" find a focus upon Jesus offensive, or tiring, or boring, says more about their relationship to him than about the appropriateness of such a focus. The Pharisees certainly had a "too much Jesus" attitude. So much so that they wanted Jesus dead. I'm not keen to emulate them in any degree.

I don't recommend preaching at fellow believers, but one can be preoccupied with Jesus without being preachy. I find, though, that the more superficial a person's experience and understanding of Jesus is, the less interest they have in him.

TraceMalin said:
Most of us have non-believing friends who tell us to shut up about God or Christ. If you become a Christian, you may lose some of your friends. But, we don't often consider that we can burn out our Christian friends too.

If my Christian friends tire of the topic of Jesus as my unsaved friends do, I think I have good grounds in this to wonder at the health and/or depth of the relationship to him my Christian friends claim to have.

TraceMalin said:
The more we talk about Jesus, the more likely we are to disagree. The more likely we are to disagree, the more likely we are to judge. The more likely we are to judge one another, the more likely Christians will walk away from us.

If Christians walk away from me because I am too occupied with Christ, so be it. My relationship with him is far, far more important to me than my relationship to so-called believers who find him tiresome.

As for judging, well, Christ himself commands his followers to "judge righteous judgment." We find him judging the Pharisees very frequently, and casting money-changers out of the temple of God, and commanding sinners to "go and sin no more." Jesus was a very "judgy" person. And so was Paul. Read his first letter to the Corinthian church.

The Church is full of false converts, "tares," Jesus called them, who are quick to find Jesus "too much." I don't see any reason why I ought to accommodate their apathy toward Christ just because they've taken to themselves the label of "Christian."

TraceMalin said:
Take this message board for example. People can come here when they want to talk about Jesus or ask for prayers. If you need to step away for any reason, you can. While Jesus may always be with you and on your mind. Stepping away from other Christians allows for a personal healing time with Christ without the drama of other people.

I am very much in support of "alone time" with Christ. The more, the better, I think. And certainly, the "drama of other people" can be draining, requiring that I make some space and time to "refuel" with God. Amen. But here you aren't talking about taking time away from Christ, but from other believers.

TraceMalin said:
It was probably a bad example. I feel the presence of Christ all the time. I talk to God constantly through an internal dialogue. Sometimes, I just don't want to talk about it. I bet I'm not alone.

Okay. And I don't think you should always feel compelled to talk about what's going on between you and God. But if others wish to do so, I don't think I ought to stifle or criticize their attempts to do so. On what basis is any one of us the Final Arbiter of how much talk of Jesus is objectively too much?

TraceMalin said:
But, we each have our own ways of expressing that.

Right. But you seem to be contradicting yourself now. If you think each of us have our own way of expressing the experience we have of God, how do you look at the next believer and say, "You're overdoing it with the Jesus stuff. You ought to knock it off." They are just expressing their life with God in their own way, right?

TraceMalin said:
"Father, it's been 8 years since my last confession." I'm sure that person is still a Christian.

Oh? On what grounds? "By their fruit you shall know them," Jesus said. Paul wrote of the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" that characterizes the life of every genuine born-again follower of Jesus. How is an eight-year lapse in confession of one's sin to God not indicative of a lack of genuine spiritual regeneration and of an actual relationship with Him?

TraceMalin said:
While Christianity in North America is under attack, I think most individual Christians are persecuted and bullied by other Christians.

Yes, I think you're right. I think also, however, that some of what some professing Christians might call bullying and persecution, is actually an objection to what Jesus and the writers of the New Testament all did in condemning false belief and teaching and hypocritical, carnal, worldly thinking and living within the Church. The "tares" in the Church hate being called out on their spiritual superficiality and carnal preoccupations. What better way for them to stifle criticism than to level the charge of bullying at their critics?

TraceMalin said:
Paul is definitely not an example of a guy who is trying to juggle church, wife, kids, career, and a retirement plan. I think, like Jesus, he knew he might be on a special mission.

Matthew 6:31-32
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things.
33 But seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

TraceMalin said:
Politics, sexual orientation, and religious views ... the things that we tempered in conversation are now thrust in everyones' faces. When someone said, "I'm a Christian," we took it at face value. Now, it's not uncommon for Christians to begin an inquisition of other Christians. My buddy, who only listens to Christian music, thinks the Catholics are going to Hell.

I guess I don't run in the sorts of circles you do. I've never had Christians thrust upon me, unsolicited, their views on politics, or sexual orientation, or religion. Maybe its a Canadian thing.

What do you make of how often criticisms are leveled at fellow believers by Paul, Peter and John in their New Testament writings? They speak to all of the things you've mentioned, commanding that believers follow a certain line in regards to each. Were they bullying? Were they persecuting fellow believers?

I think there is certainly a place for following Paul's example, urging those who call themselves Christians to test whether, in fact, they are or not.

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified?

Jesus said that not everyone who calls him "Lord" will enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 7:21) Is it not wise, then, to be sure that one is not in this category? Doing so, though, would require that one be able to say, "This is genuine faith and that is not."

timothyu · Sep 20, 2019

To be overbearing, is to be judgemental of others.

Sal Robinson · Sep 20, 2019

Brother, wow! What an amazing post.

“the things learned first are retained the most”, such an awesome thing, I wil remember it..

I love that term “the simplicity of salvation” which seems to summarise your whole outlook….really great stuff man, I couldn’t agree more…I feel we need to make it more easily comprehensive, more easy and natural to absorb

I really loved this post

That there is just beautiful writing “A shepherd could return the fields or a soldier to his cohort forever changed and at peace in his heart”, up there with the best of dickens, Fitzgerald or twain….

Are We Too Smart for Our Own Good?

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