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Presbyterian Continuist

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Do you mean to say the Word of faith movement to which I belong, doesn't accept God's word which speaks about His eternal plan & purpose?

Note: I've never read anything about who Calvin is or any of his propositions.

May I know why you see God's eternal plan & purpose as calvinism rather than God's holy Writ?
I took the time to read right through Calvin's Institutes of Religion, and I have a set of his Old and New Testament commentaries. I don't see anything unorthodox in them - nothing that is any different from standard Christian faith and practice.

I think that Calvin has been slandered by his opponents to make it appear that his doctrine is unorthodox. His emphasis is faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, and anyone who takes hold of the salvation promises of God and confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, is genuinely saved and part of the elect. He himself says that election and predestination are mysteries which we cannot explain with our finite minds.

All this nonsense about God deliberately creating souls to be destined for an eternity in hell, is not found in any of Calvin's writing. It is based on lies attributed to him by those who were his opponents.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Where in the New Testament does it say that God promises automatic material prosperity for every believer? Also, where in the book of Acts does it show any examples of the Apostles using the money given through their ministry for their own increase in wealth? Paul gathered money from the Gentle believers, but it was for the support of the believers in Jerusalem who were suffering financial loss because of their faith and a famine that was happening at the time.
Do you want to see God's eternal unchanging plan & purpose to prosper Abraham even though he feared death & lied about his relationship with Sarah?

Is he the father of believers?
 
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Do you want to see God's eternal unchanging plan & purpose to prosper Abraham even though he feared death & lied about his relationship with Sarah?

Is he the father of believers?
Show me clear Scripture from the New Testament that God promised automatic material prosperity based on faith. Abraham became wealthy through hard work and good investment, not by telling people to give him money so they can be prosperous too.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Show me clear Scripture from the New Testament that God promised automatic material prosperity based on faith. Abraham became wealthy through hard work and good investment, not by telling people to give him money so they can be prosperous too.
Did Abraham receive immense wealth from the king of Egypt and Gerar?
 
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Did Abraham receive immense wealth from the king of Egypt and Gerar?
No. The Scripture doesn't say that. Also, when he defeated the king who kidnapped Lot, and got the treasures back for the other kings in the valley, they offered him a substantial reward and he refused it.

You don't seem to be able to come up with any of the New Testament proof that I asked for, because there actually ain't any!
 
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Si_monfaith

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Is that really what you're wanting for me to help you to do? And shouldn't the questioner make a direct statement about what they believe about anything?


Oh is that what any of us have a possibility to do with you?? Aren't we right in assessing you've already made up your mind about EVERYTHING???

make a direct statement about what they believe about anything?

I believe in Word of faith.

assessing

I like to assess posts positively with faith.
 
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I believe in Word of faith.
I like to assess posts positively with faith.
Depends on what one has as the foundation of their faith.
As for me, my faith is in what God actually says in the Bible, in good, clear King James English! :)
 
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Si_monfaith

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No. The Scripture doesn't say that. Also, when he defeated the king who kidnapped Lot, and got the treasures back for the other kings in the valley, they offered him a substantial reward and he refused it.

You don't seem to be able to come up with any of the New Testament proof that I asked for, because there actually ain't any!
Does faith continue from Abraham?

Would you like to consider Genesis 20:14+Deuteronomy 6:10-12 for instance?
 
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Si_monfaith

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No. The Scripture doesn't say that. Also, when he defeated the king who kidnapped Lot, and got the treasures back for the other kings in the valley, they offered him a substantial reward and he refused it.

You don't seem to be able to come up with any of the New Testament proof that I asked for, because there actually ain't any!
You don't seem to be able to come up with any of the New Testament proof

Are we eligible for God's promises in the old testament through Christ's death & resurrection?
 
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True Word of Faith believers settle their faith on what God has said and promised in the Bible. They know that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. So when the Word of God is preached as exposition of Scripture, then that builds faith in the listeners. It is the same when one reads the Bible and sees the promises of God for himself.

There is another species of WOF people who base their faith on faith. Their attitude is, "If I believe it, then it is true". Their faith is in their own opinions, which they believe. For example, if some having that type of faith believes that the world is flat, then it is true for them, because they believe it - whether it is objectively true or not.

There are those who believe that if they give sums of money to a prosperity preacher, they will become prosperous themselves. They believe it, so it is true for them, and if they don't become prosperous, then they conclude they don't have enough faith, so they try to believe even harder and try to will, by their faith, that they will be able to overcome their unbelief and their prosperity will come. Some go all their lives with that vain hope and die in poverty because they have given away all their money to some preacher who has bought several acres of expensive land, built a large mansion and acquired a fleet of motor vehicles on the proceeds. It is not faith that the preacher exercises, it is cunning, deceit and manipulation to acquire his wealth on the backs of those whom he has deceived.
 
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Are we eligible for God's promises in the old testament through Christ's death & resurrection?
Yes. But you are still avoiding giving any clear New Testament Scriptures to prove your point. I can't exercise faith in what you are saying because you cannot give me any New Testament Scriptures to settle my faith on.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Yes. But you are still avoiding giving any clear New Testament Scriptures to prove your point. I can't exercise faith in what you are saying because you cannot give me any New Testament Scriptures to settle my faith on.

2Corinthians1:20:"For in him every one of God’s promises is a “Yes.” For this reason it is through him that we say the “Amen,” to the glory of God".
 
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Bobber

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Prosperity theology was unknown in the early church of the First Century.

I'd say it all depends on what one means by prosperity teaching. Jesus spoke of the 100 Fold return. Mark 10:30. It's also found 7 other places in scripture. Yes I know many have different understandings of what that means BUT one can't just say they don't believe in it. Does it need to be rightly defined? Yes. But I've seen preachers strongly assert the Bible doesn't teach such a thing....and yet it's clearly in the words of Jesus! The better response would be the Bible teaches it but it's meaning is A, B and C based on other verses of scripture.
 
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Bobber

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I believe in seed faith, but the harvest comes from the particular type of seed sown. If I sow seeds of kindness and gentleness, then I will reap a harvest of kindness and gentleness from others.

And to me I consider that's prosperity but I consider prosperity to be the moving into the blessings of God and a return of kindness and gentleness from others is your soul being prosperous.

But in a conference, the Holy Spirit asked me to contribute my lunch money to the offering. It was only $10, but it was my lunch money, and so I gave, but wondered how I was going to have any lunch. I would probably have to get all spiritual and fast!

Ha...well that you might have to fast that might be prosperity as well. God might be moving one into more of the blessed state of being in good shape if they're somewhat overweight....Ha, not saying you are mind you. :)

What happened was that I was offered two lunches. When I got to work I found that my salary had increased $12,000 per year, and a month later, as a speaker in another conference, my share of the love offering for speakers was around $300! So, I sowed $10, and reaped pressed down and running over!

So you are believing in prosperity God's way even involves financial things. You qualify what it means however which is good.

But I don't believe a preacher manipulating people into giving to his ministry and his personal wealth by promising prosperity through it.

Of course I do believe some preachers might have a wrong spirit but listeners need to have discernment. I think one can wrongly assert one is "manipulating" people. I don't think just because one says the words God will bless you for supporting their ministry absolutely means it's without truth. The well known verse of scripture where Paul stated, "that God will meet your needs according to his riches in glory" really was spoken to those who would support his ministry,

"Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." Phil 4: 15,19

Of course I want to be careful. I don't want to leave the impression that anyone who says give to me and God will bless you should be taken seriously....but....we need discernment. One should first KNOW in one's spirit from the Spirit of God that a certain ministry is worthy of support. There's being led by the Spirit not just being led by what a man says.

The principle that Jesus taught was that we give generously for sure, but not to expect any kind of repayment.

Ah not sure I totally agree with that. The overall revelation of God including the Old Testament we can see examples and scriptural principles of give and expect a return.
Elijah speaking to the widow woman told her to give her last bit of food and she was inspired to believe,

"For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘The jar of flour will not be used up and the jug of oil will not run dry until the day the Lord sends rain on the land.’” 1 Kings 17: 7-16

The trouble with prosperity preachers who manipulate good people out of their money with the promise of prosperity, they are the only ones who receive the jackpot!! Just like the guys at the top of the pyramid of pyramid marketing, while the ones down at the bottom get nothing for their investment.

I'm sure there are some what you call "prosperity preachers" who will have to give account to God. Keep in mind there are let's call them traditional type of preachers, minsters, Reverends, while they don't preach as it were "prosperity" it might be deemed that they too have been unjustly living off the sheep by having nice homes, good cars, and abundance of all bills paid, good vacations while a poor member of their church is struggling with having the basic essentials of life. My point is God will weigh the motives of EVERYONE'S heart not just a few. It can be easy to point to Prosperity preachers and show much disdain but well....there can be others things one might need to consider as well.
 
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hhodgson

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Does it appear as "some truth" & not whole truth only because it's just a little hard to find sometimes?

Hi Si_ I'll leave it as I originally said it. None of us have the whole truth, right?


Word of Faith.gif
 
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I'd say it all depends on what one means by prosperity teaching. Jesus spoke of the 100 Fold return. Mark 10:30. It's also found 7 other places in scripture. Yes I know many have different understandings of what that means BUT one can't just say they don't believe in it. Does it need to be rightly defined? Yes. But I've seen preachers strongly assert the Bible doesn't teach such a thing....and yet it's clearly in the words of Jesus! The better response would be the Bible teaches it but it's meaning is A, B and C based on other verses of scripture.
It all comes under the principle of sowing and reaping. We reap what we sow. But the type of prosperity teaching that we find where if people give their money to a ministry on request with the promise of financial wealth and material prosperity, is foreign to the New Testament. Nowhere in the New Testament are we promised guaranteed material and financial prosperity. And certainly not receiving offerings from ordinary people to build a great mansion and have a fleet of motor cars for oneself. That is sheer covetousness and misappropriating the Lord's money for selfish undulgence.

George Mueller in the 19th Century received millions of pounds in his lifetime, and he kept nothing for himself. He either used it to finance his orphanages, or gave it away to people in need. Oral Roberts when he died, owned a standard motor car and a small condominium. Smith Wigglesworth lived in an ordinary three bedroom bungalow in Bradford in England. But these men prospered spiritually in the Lord with the Lord blessing their ministries and bringing thousands to Christ through their work. This is what John meant when he said that believers should prosper as their soul prospers. The prosperity that is supported in the New Testament is where a believer has all his or her needs met, and is never forsaken by the Lord, and his children don't have to go out begging for their next meal.

I will bet your bottom dollar that if Jesus through the Holy Spirit told these wealthy and asset-rich prosperity preachers to sell all their possessions and come follow Him, they would make every excuse to avoid it, and find "proof" Scriptures to show that they don't have to do it.
 
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Si_monfaith

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And to me I consider that's prosperity but I consider prosperity to be the moving into the blessings of God and a return of kindness and gentleness from others is your soul being prosperous.



Ha...well that you might have to fast that might be prosperity as well. God might be moving one into more of the blessed state of being in good shape if they're somewhat overweight....Ha, not saying you are mind you. :)



So you are believing in prosperity God's way even involves financial things. You qualify what it means however which is good.



Of course I do believe some preachers might have a wrong spirit but listeners need to have discernment. I think one can wrongly assert one is "manipulating" people. I don't think just because one says the words God will bless you for supporting their ministry absolutely means it's without truth. The well known verse of scripture where Paul stated, "that God will meet your needs according to his riches in glory" really was spoken to those who would support his ministry,

"Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." Phil 4: 15,19

Of course I want to be careful. I don't want to leave the impression that anyone who says give to me and God will bless you should be taken seriously....but....we need discernment. One should first KNOW in one's spirit from the Spirit of God that a certain ministry is worthy of support. There's being led by the Spirit not just being led by what a man says.



Ah not sure I totally agree with that. The overall revelation of God including the Old Testament we can see examples and scriptural principles of give and expect a return.
Elijah speaking to the widow woman told her to give her last bit of food and she was inspired to believe,

"For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘The jar of flour will not be used up and the jug of oil will not run dry until the day the Lord sends rain on the land.’” 1 Kings 17: 7-16



I'm sure there are some what you call "prosperity preachers" who will have to give account to God. Keep in mind there are let's call them traditional type of preachers, minsters, Reverends, while they don't preach as it were "prosperity" it might be deemed that they too have been unjustly living off the sheep by having nice homes, good cars, and abundance of all bills paid, good vacations while a poor member of their church is struggling with having the basic essentials of life. My point is God will weigh the motives of EVERYONE'S heart not just a few. It can be easy to point to Prosperity preachers and show much disdain but well....there can be others things one might need to consider as well.

One should first KNOW in one's spirit from the Spirit of God that a certain ministry is worthy of support
Does God support a person because "he" is worthy or because "Christ" lived a worthy life till His death?
 
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And to me I consider that's prosperity but I consider prosperity to be the moving into the blessings of God and a return of kindness and gentleness from others is your soul being prosperous.



Ha...well that you might have to fast that might be prosperity as well. God might be moving one into more of the blessed state of being in good shape if they're somewhat overweight....Ha, not saying you are mind you. :)



So you are believing in prosperity God's way even involves financial things. You qualify what it means however which is good.



Of course I do believe some preachers might have a wrong spirit but listeners need to have discernment. I think one can wrongly assert one is "manipulating" people. I don't think just because one says the words God will bless you for supporting their ministry absolutely means it's without truth. The well known verse of scripture where Paul stated, "that God will meet your needs according to his riches in glory" really was spoken to those who would support his ministry,

"Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." Phil 4: 15,19

Of course I want to be careful. I don't want to leave the impression that anyone who says give to me and God will bless you should be taken seriously....but....we need discernment. One should first KNOW in one's spirit from the Spirit of God that a certain ministry is worthy of support. There's being led by the Spirit not just being led by what a man says.



Ah not sure I totally agree with that. The overall revelation of God including the Old Testament we can see examples and scriptural principles of give and expect a return.
Elijah speaking to the widow woman told her to give her last bit of food and she was inspired to believe,

"For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘The jar of flour will not be used up and the jug of oil will not run dry until the day the Lord sends rain on the land.’” 1 Kings 17: 7-16



I'm sure there are some what you call "prosperity preachers" who will have to give account to God. Keep in mind there are let's call them traditional type of preachers, minsters, Reverends, while they don't preach as it were "prosperity" it might be deemed that they too have been unjustly living off the sheep by having nice homes, good cars, and abundance of all bills paid, good vacations while a poor member of their church is struggling with having the basic essentials of life. My point is God will weigh the motives of EVERYONE'S heart not just a few. It can be easy to point to Prosperity preachers and show much disdain but well....there can be others things one might need to consider as well.
I think that we are basically on the same page here. I believe that a preacher or pastor should have a reasonable home to live in, be able to pay his bills, and have a motor car that he spends more time in it than under it. I don't believe that poverty is a sign of spirituality as some who take vows of poverty and survive by begging instead of going out and getting a job, even at Maccers slinging burgers for a living. There are extremes.

I think that people who work hard for their wages and hardly are able to pay their bills, rent, motor car maintenance, would seriously question a preacher who is always asking for money for his ministry, when it is obvious that he has spent millions of dollars on a large mansion, fleet of motor vehicles, expensive holidays, etc. They would be questioning whether they are giving their hard earned money to the Lord, or just lining the pockets of the preacher.

But, there are churches that pay their pastors well below a reasonable living wage. I think that is wrong as well. The Scripture says that a labourer is worthy of his hie. If a church expect quality ministry from its pastor, it should pay him a living wage just like any other employer. If a church cannot afford the living wage, then they shouldn't be employing that pastor.

So there are extremes, and you are right - that we have to give an account to the Lord concerning the stewardship of what He gives us.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Hi Si_ I'll leave it as I originally said it. None of us have the whole truth, right?



little hard to find sometimes


Do we find truth or is it given to us by His sovereign eternal unchanging plan (Mathew 11: 25,26-At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do)?
 
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