What makes Christianity convincing for you personally?

ChristopherHays said:

@David Cabrera I agree with you completely. Something fascinating happened in first century Palestine. The common rebuttal to this point would be that the Morman church grew at a faster rate than Christianity after the death of their respective founders (Joseph Smith & Jesus) Islam has also risen very quickly since the time of Muhammad, and has the largest following according to a recent census. There’s obviously allot of variables and I take those numbers with a grain of salt, but would you agree that it’s possible for false prophets (such as Muhammad, Joseph Smith etc.) to spark equally successful religions?

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Well, Mormonism started in a country that allows them to exist even when they were quite hostile toward them and they had the chance to go to Utah.

While Islam could triumph through Muhammed military actions.

Nevertheless, both groups did something that Christianity did first and both were influenced by Christianity too.

ChristopherHays said:

@Bible Highlighter I think you’re on to something with those Christian girls lol. I’ve never been able to create meaningful friendships with any atheists yet. Perhaps I haven’t met the right ones. As far as morality goes though, I think it’s subjective weather you’re a Christian or not. No matter what the moral issue is (abortion, war, slavery, capitol punishment, gay marriage) you will see bible believing Christians lining up on both sides of the issue. I would really like to have a universal right and wrong, but unfortunately we all have our own opinions and translations.

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It seems like that is common for some atheists. An atheist member of our college club hang out with a lot of Christian friends and when I asked him why he said that most atheists were jerks.

@ChristopherHays

Make a chart.

Put the religions of the world in one category, and the Bible in another.
You will discover that Biblical Christianity is more attacked than any other religion.
You will discover more evidences for the Bible than any other religion.

Jesus peace inside, Jesus footprint in creation, Jesus intervening in my life, The bible standing up to Historical scrutiny.

ChristopherHays said:

@ajcarey I really appreciate your response and the knowledge and time that went into it. I think you bring up the most interesting prophecies and probably rightly left out a few others. First of all it should go without saying that there has to be evidence that the prophecy was written before the events they predict. Despite the dates Christians assign the books, many of these prophecies have no manuscript evidence prior to the first century. Even if we assume they were written and unedited prior to the first century I think most biblical prophecies are pretty disappointing. When you read ‘so it was fulfilled’ in the New Testament and actually check the reference, most of them are clearly talking about something else in another place and time. The virgin birth prophecy for example is probably a mistranslation and isn’t talking about marry at all. The ‘out of Egypt’ prophecy doesn’t seem to apply or match the other gospel accounts. The suffering servant in Isaiah is really good and probably the best prophecy in the Bible. It’s not written as a prophecy though. It’s written in past tense as if it’s describing history. It mentions the offspring of the suffering servant and Jesus never had children. It also curiously says that the servant will be “given a place among the great.” Jesus’ place is above all others not among the other great humans. It says the servant will be “pierced and crushed.” Pierced sounds accurate but Jesus was never crushed. Isaiah also says “Jerusalem oh holy city, the uncircumcised and defiled will never enter you again” (52:1) and that prophecy didn’t come true unless you really jump through some hoops. Besides that the prophecy is pretty vague. It describes a person dying for the sins of Israel. It never says any details about Jesus, the servants divinity, the resurrection etc. it’s a great passage. Probably the best prophecy in the Bible, but it’s not without it’s difficulties. Is it possible that Jesus died and his disciples made the parallel to help them deal with their grief? There’s a reason prophecy is never brought up when Bill Craig, Dinesh Dsuza, Mike Licona, and the other great apologists present evidence for Christianity.

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We do know that the Septuagint was translated somewhere between the 1st and 3rd centuries BC.

When it comes to understanding prophecey and the way they it is applied, I would suggest it helps to have a good grounding in Jewish Rabbinical thought. The way in which it is recorded that Yeshua applied prophecies to himself, even while He was in the midst of being crucified is entirely appropriate and well understood by His opponents who understood completely what He was saying and were incensed that He identified Himself in this way. Not that He was the only one to do so, Jewish history from the time is littered with the carcasses of dead messiahs.

But that He then had the temerity to rise from the dead, put a completely different angle on things, one could say.

ChristopherHays said:

I went to church 3 times a week for the first 22 years of my life. Now at 23, I consider myself an atheist. However, I like to think I’m still open minded. I’d like to know what makes Christianity convincing to you?

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Every Old Testament prophecy that predicts world events right up to the Day of Pentecost has been fulfilled exactly to the finest detail. If we compare the prophecies with world history, we see that prophecies given hundreds of years before the events, have come totally true, and the historical records prove it. Every prophecy concerning Jesus came true in the finest detail, and the amazing thing is that the prophets who gave the prophecies hundreds of years before had no idea about them other than that God, through inspiration told them what was going to happen. This is what proves the Bible to be the word of God and absolutely true.

And if the Bible is proved totally true in every detail, then faith in Christ, really does bring salvation to the person who believes.

ChristopherHays said:

I went to church 3 times a week for the first 22 years of my life. Now at 23, I consider myself an atheist. However, I like to think I’m still open minded. I’d like to know what makes Christianity convincing to you?

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I didn't see it as a religion. I was exposed since I was about 4 or 5. I've always seen the gospel as truth. I got water baptized when I didn't understand anything of what was going on, but I eventually got saved at around 8.

I did some years as a prodigal son, but then I rededicated my life and renewed the salvation that I had at a young age. Since then I've enjoyed my life a lot better then that stint of waywardness.

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit witnesses to us that we are children of God. Until a person has such an encounter, it is more a religion than a heart felt motivated way of life.

ChristopherHays said:

I went to church 3 times a week for the first 22 years of my life. Now at 23, I consider myself an atheist. However, I like to think I’m still open minded. I’d like to know what makes Christianity convincing to you?

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For me any world view has to work, first of all, and it has to make some kind of sense, at least internally, and to compare favourably with other worldviews in terms of outcomes. I don't think there is any real option but to continually revisit both the fundamental ideas of Christianity until you feel you have a solid, personal understanding of them, and compare that with your own experiences, what you see as being the outcomes of different ways of thinking, and how well they match up with your own judgements about what is good and effective, and what isn't. Some ways of thinking about life, the universe and everything favour definitions as an end in themselves, others involve a process of measurement against what actually happens when you live them out. I don't think there are any simple answers or shortcuts in deciding which you find to be most convincing.

ChristopherHays said:

@Oscarr which prophecy is your favorite example? Is there one you would reference as the most convincing? Or is it just all of them collectively?

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I don't find them convincing so much as fascinating.

This one I like though from Matthew 27: From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Then from John 19: Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Two seperate, arguably independent authors (certainly they wrote seperately and had different sources) each record Yeshua quoting a Psalm, and don't even reference it as a prophecy.

In in a typically Jewish way at the time, The Psalms were so well known that a person would only need to quote the first and last part of a particular one and everyone would know what they were saying. So the people standing around him, hearing his voice would have heard:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from saving me,

so far from my cries of anguish?

My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,

by night, but I find no rest.

Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;

you are the one Israel praises.

In you our ancestors put their trust;

they trusted and you delivered them.

To you they cried out and were saved;

in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

But I am a worm and not a man,

scorned by everyone, despised by the people.

All who see me mock me;

they hurl insults, shaking their heads.

“He trusts in the Lord,” they say,

“let the Lord rescue him.

Let him deliver him,

since he delights in him.”

Yet you brought me out of the womb;

you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.

From birth I was cast on you;

from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

Do not be far from me,

for trouble is near

and there is no one to help.

Many bulls surround me;

strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

Roaring lions that tear their prey

open their mouths wide against me.

I am poured out like water,

and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted within me.

My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;

you lay me in the dust of death.

Dogs surround me,

a pack of villains encircles me;

they pierce e my hands and my feet.

All my bones are on display;

people stare and gloat over me.

They divide my clothes among them

and cast lots for my garment.

But you, Lord, do not be far from me.

You are my strength; come quickly to help me.

Deliver me from the sword,

my precious life from the power of the dogs.

Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;

save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

I will declare your name to my people;

in the assembly I will praise you.

You who fear the Lord, praise him!

All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!

Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

For he has not despised or scorned

the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him

but has listened to his cry for help.

From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;

before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.

The poor will eat and be satisfied;

those who seek the Lord will praise him—

may your hearts live forever!

All the ends of the earth

will remember and turn to the Lord,

and all the families of the nations

will bow down before him,

for dominion belongs to the Lord

and he rules over the nations.

All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;

all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—

those who cannot keep themselves alive.

Posterity will serve him;

future generations will be told about the Lord.

They will proclaim his righteousness,

declaring to a people yet unborn:

He has done it!

Psalm 22

ChristopherHays said:

@ajcarey I really appreciate your response and the knowledge and time that went into it. I think you bring up the most interesting prophecies and probably rightly left out a few others. First of all it should go without saying that there has to be evidence that the prophecy was written before the events they predict. Despite the dates Christians assign the books, many of these prophecies have no manuscript evidence prior to the first century. Even if we assume they were written and unedited prior to the first century I think most biblical prophecies are pretty disappointing. When you read ‘so it was fulfilled’ in the New Testament and actually check the reference, most of them are clearly talking about something else in another place and time. The virgin birth prophecy for example is probably a mistranslation and isn’t talking about marry at all. The ‘out of Egypt’ prophecy doesn’t seem to apply or match the other gospel accounts. The suffering servant in Isaiah is really good and probably the best prophecy in the Bible. It’s not written as a prophecy though. It’s written in past tense as if it’s describing history. It mentions the offspring of the suffering servant and Jesus never had children. It also curiously says that the servant will be “given a place among the great.” Jesus’ place is above all others not among the other great humans. It says the servant will be “pierced and crushed.” Pierced sounds accurate but Jesus was never crushed. Isaiah also says “Jerusalem oh holy city, the uncircumcised and defiled will never enter you again” (52:1) and that prophecy didn’t come true unless you really jump through some hoops. Besides that the prophecy is pretty vague. It describes a person dying for the sins of Israel. It never says any details about Jesus, the servants divinity, the resurrection etc. it’s a great passage. Probably the best prophecy in the Bible, but it’s not without it’s difficulties. Is it possible that Jesus died and his disciples made the parallel to help them deal with their grief? There’s a reason prophecy is never brought up when Bill Craig, Dinesh Dsuza, Mike Licona, and the other great apologists present evidence for Christianity.

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Christopher, Isaiah 52:1 was a conditional promise as it was said to Jerusalem in Isaiah 54:14 that in righteousness it would be established. It is foolish to take Bible promise and assume it will be fulfilled apart from the conditions on which it was made. It is what many professing Christians do also and is the source of much bad doctrine in Christendom.

I think you're listening to a lot of people with agendas and taking their word on their statements with a lot less scrutiny than you are scrutinizing the Bible with. I suspect, actually I am sure (because the Bible tells me so and it is true), that you have reasons that you don't want the Bible to be true. Would you be honest enough to admit that you don't want to live and think the way the Bible commands and that this might be blinding your eyes in these matters?

ChristopherHays said:

@Oscarr which prophecy is your favorite example? Is there one you would reference as the most convincing? Or is it just all of them collectively?

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I think all of them collectively.
Isaiah 53 is a good one, because it describes the crucifixion of Jesus very accurately right down to the last detail, and yet crucifixion was not even thought of in Isaiah's time. Also, it was common practice for the leg bones of crucified people to be broken to hasten death, and it happened to the two thieves crucified with Jesus, but because Jesus was dead already, they did not break His legs, yet hundreds of years previously, Isaiah said that not one bone in the Messiah's body would be broken. How did he know that, unless the Holy Spirit told him?

What makes Christianity convincing for you personally? Personally I have found that you and I, and everyone born into this world are in a dilemma and that is by design. Hebrews 11: 1-6.
The proof is in the pudding.

ChristopherHays said:

@Anguspure I think you’re right that most of the messianic prophecies firmly date back to before the events. It’s the more detailed, more impressive prophecies like Alexander the Great and the destruction of tire that really have questionable manuscript evidence.
As you say though, many people were claiming to be the fulfillment of prophecy. I’m not convinced the words attributed to Jesus are entirely accurate, but even so it’s not surprising that a first century Jew might claim to be the messiah. It all depends on the validity of the resurrection just as Paul says. I’m afraid the resurrection demands more faith than the evidence supports though, but that’s just my opinion.

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Yup. That certainly is the crux of the matter....so to speak.

Furthermore, you are right, the evidence is subjective and circumstantial largely depending upon the anecdotal testimony of people (although I do find it hard to believe that a person would hold to a fabricated story on the threat of a drawn out and painful death as almost all of the Apostles did).

So the question becomes whether or not we trust the testimony. That is a very personal decision made on the grounds of the orientation of our heart and who we are prepared to trust.

What makes Christianity convincing for you personally?

God's own Holy Spirit.

It is He Who convicts, and wins, hearts, souls, and minds.

HE convinced me, Christopher.

Anguspure said:

Yup. That certainly is the crux of the matter....so to speak.

Furthermore, you are right, the evidence is subjective and circumstantial largely depending upon the anecdotal testimony of people (although I do find it hard to believe that a person would hold to a fabricated story on the threat of a drawn out and painful death as almost all of the Apostles did).

So the question becomes whether or not we trust the testimony. That is a very personal decision made on the grounds of the orientation of our heart and who we are prepared to trust.

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The prophecy about Tyre were very detailed, and the historical record that describes what happened when Alexander defeated that city, shows that it happened exactly as was prophesied right down to the last detail.

I don't know whether you are implying that the resurrection of Jesus was fabricated or not, seeing that you mentioned the Apostles choosing death rather than denying that Jesus really did rise from the dead.

If the story was fabricated, then anyone could have come forward to deny it.
These are the people who knew that Jesus had really risen from the dead:
The soldiers guarding the tomb
The women coming and finding the stone rolled away (the question is, who rolled that stone away?)
The chief priests knew that it had happened, because they paid the soldiers large sums of money to say that the disciples stole the body.
500 people, still alive when Luke wrote his gospel, knew that Jesus had risen, because He appeared to them.

If the disciples had stolen His body, one of them would have confessed it and shown where the body was, and the whole of Christianity would have fallen to pieces right there. The chief priests would have loved to have been able to produce the body of Jesus, but they couldn't, and so that frustrated them greatly. In actual fact the chief priests knew that Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God, that is why they were severely threatened by Him. This is why they lied to Pilate and the people. They, Pilate, and Herod knew beyond doubt that Jesus was totally innocent, but they allowed Jesus to be murdered anyway.

So, this is why all the Apostles, except John accepted painful death rather than deny Jesus as the Son of God, their Lord and their Saviour, because they knew beyond doubt that He rose from the dead.

I always had an intrinsic sense that life and all that supports it had to emanate from something outside of creation itself. But it wasn’t until someone finally came along and helped me put it all together.

Romans 10:14

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Oscarr said:

The prophecy about Tyre were very detailed, and the historical record that describes what happened when Alexander defeated that city, shows that it happened exactly as was prophesied right down to the last detail.

I don't know whether you are implying that the resurrection of Jesus was fabricated or not, seeing that you mentioned the Apostles choosing death rather than denying that Jesus really did rise from the dead.

If the story was fabricated, then anyone could have come forward to deny it.
These are the people who knew that Jesus had really risen from the dead:
The soldiers guarding the tomb
The women coming and finding the stone rolled away (the question is, who rolled that stone away?)
The chief priests knew that it had happened, because they paid the soldiers large sums of money to say that the disciples stole the body.
500 people, still alive when Luke wrote his gospel, knew that Jesus had risen, because He appeared to them.

If the disciples had stolen His body, one of them would have confessed it and shown where the body was, and the whole of Christianity would have fallen to pieces right there. The chief priests would have loved to have been able to produce the body of Jesus, but they couldn't, and so that frustrated them greatly. In actual fact the chief priests knew that Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God, that is why they were severely threatened by Him. This is why they lied to Pilate and the people. They, Pilate, and Herod knew beyond doubt that Jesus was totally innocent, but they allowed Jesus to be murdered anyway.

So, this is why all the Apostles, except John accepted painful death rather than deny Jesus as the Son of God, their Lord and their Saviour, because they knew beyond doubt that He rose from the dead.

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You miss my point. The anecdotal evidence is indeed convincing, particularly the recorded testimony of the women.
My point is that whatever can be said about the other evidence, nobody holds to a story they know perfectly well is fabricated on pain of death. Or at least if it could be said that one or 2 lunatics might, certainly not the majority or all of them, which is what we consistently observe with the Apostles, they were all murdered (except John) for proclaiming the resurrection of Yeshua.