Does Gods plan for our lives ever include sin?

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

Lost something there in the story.

Playing video games is not a sin. Putting video games before God is.

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Perhaps playing video games is a sin - especially many of the ones available today.
Just spending time with the games (and money?) could be a way the enemy would like us all to ignore God at the time, instead of doing at the time what God has told us to do.

Neostarwcc said:

This is a serious question although the answer sounds like a "duh! Of course not!" But let me explain If it wasnt for sin I never would have met my wife back in 2014 (curiously 3-4 months after I had accepted Christ). I never would have made so many friendships including Christian ones. I literally have over 20 active online friends that I talk to regularly and I continue to meet new friends each day. Thanks to God I will NEVER be alone EVER again!

God used sin to help me forgive my dad who used me as his punching and verbal abusing punching bag for over 95% of my life. That sin also eventually lead me to Christ.

So why can't Gods ultimate plan for my life Include sinning against him? If hes included sin into all of my hopes, dreams, hobbies, and ambitions? It is literally impossible for me to STOP living in sin without completely rejecting every part of my life that makes me happy and becoming a robot. Sin mind you that God gave to me!

Nobody gave it to me but God. God simply created me this way. So why cant Gods plan for our lives include sin? Especially people like me who know nothing else? It's literally eaten me from the inside and is ALL around my core being.

You might say if God gave these talents to me than they cant be sins. But, they are.

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All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I think it is a Bible verse. One should not boast of sin.

Obese people have a higher risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease. My uncle managed an auto parts company in Indiana. He was a Korean War veteran. He used to like to watch Indiana University basketball. He liked to eat thick steaks in restaurants. He turned 65 and moved to Florida with his wife to retire. In his first year there he was playing tennis and dropped dead of heart attack on the tennis court. Gluttony was a great deal of fun, but it cut short a man’s life. I never heard him brag about all sin had provided for him.

Two high school couples were on a double date Saturday night in an affluent DC suburb. They were seniors. The drinking age was 18. They were drinking. The driver was intoxicated. He lost control of the vehicle. There was an auto accident that night. A high school senior did not make it to graduation.

Wrong turns do not always lead to paradise.

Neostarwcc said:

This is a serious question although the answer sounds like a "duh! Of course not!" But let me explain If it wasnt for sin I never would have met my wife back in 2014 (curiously 3-4 months after I had accepted Christ). I never would have made so many friendships including Christian ones. I literally have over 20 active online friends that I talk to regularly and I continue to meet new friends each day. Thanks to God I will NEVER be alone EVER again!

God used sin to help me forgive my dad who used me as his punching and verbal abusing punching bag for over 95% of my life. That sin also eventually lead me to Christ.

So why can't Gods ultimate plan for my life Include sinning against him? If hes included sin into all of my hopes, dreams, hobbies, and ambitions? It is literally impossible for me to STOP living in sin without completely rejecting every part of my life that makes me happy and becoming a robot. Sin mind you that God gave to me!

Nobody gave it to me but God. God simply created me this way. So why cant Gods plan for our lives include sin? Especially people like me who know nothing else? It's literally eaten me from the inside and is ALL around my core being.

You might say if God gave these talents to me than they cant be sins. But, they are.

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As many have pointed out, God is not the Author or Designer of sin. Sin and evil, by their nature, attempt to destroy the good that God brings into existence. And, as others have pointed out, God can and does use sin to redeem the good that God has created (the cross being the obvious example).

All that being said, I do find it near impossible to believe that God didn't know the sinful situation we have brought into creation would happen. Surely God did. For reasons I assume are beyond us, God decided to create a world that would turn out like this. God was not caught by surprise. God knew before the creation that the Son would come and die. That's a humbling thought. But it also strengthens my faith that God is sovereign, especially over sin.

renniks said:

He is a Calvinist. And he is right that sin doesn't surprise God, but not that it is his plan... God does not will your sinning.

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Good Day, Renniks

Lets stretch the question based on that answer.... could God stop us from sinning?

What is your take on Jer 19:9.. could God make them?

And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them

Just to be correct he would consider himself a 7 pointer and very Edwarian in his views. Edwards was the greatest theological mind the America ever produced so Piper is in good company.

In Him,
Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Renniks

Lets stretch the question based on that answer.... could God stop us from sinning?

What is your take on Jer 19:9.. could God make them?

And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them

Just to be correct he would consider himself a 7 pointer and very Edwarian in his views. Edwards was the greatest theological mind the America ever produced so Piper is in good company.

In Him,
Bill

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Bill, let me ask you a question, why was God bringing disaster on his people in the first place?
"I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. 4 For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned incense in it to gods that neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

The question whether God could stop us from sinning totally misses the point. Calvinism is at it's core, merely God moving all the pieces on the board, in other worlds, total control, down to what thoughts enter your head and what sins you choose. Or as the Westminster confession has it God ordains everything that happens.
And that is simply not the picture God paints of himself in the Bible. He says this sin his people committed, never even entered his mind, so how can one say he ordained it to happen? God was simply allowing his people to reap what they had sewn. He didn't cause them to sin in the first place and he didn't cause their sin in any case.

renniks said:

Bill, let me ask you a question, why was God bringing disaster on his people in the first place?
"I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. 4 For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned incense in it to gods that neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

The question whether God could stop us from sinning totally misses the point. Calvinism is at it's core, merely God moving all the pieces on the board, in other worlds, total control, down to what thoughts enter your head and what sins you choose. Or as the Westminster confession has it God ordains everything that happens.
And that is simply not the picture God paints of himself in the Bible. He says this sin his people committed, never even entered his mind, so how can one say he ordained it to happen? God was simply allowing his people to reap what they had sewn. He didn't cause them to sin in the first place and he didn't cause their sin in any case.

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Good Day,

Easy question Because His Holiness and justice demanded that he do so.


Now do you really expect me to believe that it surprised God?

Now answer my 2 please..

Yes all the historical confessions of the once delivered faith to the saints have that type of language, drawn from the correct exegesis of the scripture.


In Him,

Bill

Good day,

If God could stop us and he does not... what do we make of that?

BBAS 64 said:

Now answer my 2 please..

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Could God stop us from sinning? He could as far as having the power, but apparently he can't both stop us from sinning and have a world where some people freely follow him.
If he unilaterally enforces his will, this world would no longer be the testing ground it's designed to be

BBAS 64 said:

Now do you really expect me to believe that it surprised God?

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No, but it's clear that he did not will it or condone it, or cause it. He is not the author of sin.

BBAS 64 said:

Easy question Because His Holiness and justice demanded that he do so.

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Why? Because of sin! You can't have it both ways, he can't punish people for sin and cause their sin in the first place. That would be the opposite of Justice.

renniks said:

Could God stop us from sinning? He could as far as having the power, but apparently he can't both stop us from sinning and have a world where some people freely follow him.
If he unilaterally enforces his will, this world would no longer be the testing ground it's designed to be

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Good day, Renniks

Your presuppositions are effecting your ability to answer.. lets break it down.

He has the power he is God.
You presume freedom as you define it, and your subjunctive "freedom" may be in error.
You Presume "the world was designed to be a "testing" ground"

So what is you biblical basis for such presups?

The Scripture is clear: He can and his has...

Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her

In Him,

Bill

renniks said:

Why? Because of sin! You can't have it both ways, he can't punish people for sin and cause their sin in the first place. That would be the opposite of Justice.

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Good day, Renniks

We just disagree on what Justice means... and the function of primary and secondary causes.

Which nation did God use to judge his people and then judge them for their pridefulness? He did so to serve his purpose, he can do that he is God.

In Him,

Bill

renniks said:

No, but it's clear that he did not will it or condone it, or cause it. He is not the author of sin.

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Good day,

Recommend Edwards on the Authour of sin question:

Is God the Author of Sin? Jonathan Edwards' Answer

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good day, Renniks

Your presuppositions are effecting your ability to answer.. lets break it down.

He has the power he is God.
You presume freedom as you define it, and your subjunctive "freedom" may be in error.
You Presume "the world was designed to be a "testing" ground"

So what is you biblical basis for such presups?

The Scripture is clear: He can and his has...

Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her

In Him,

Bill

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So, in one instance, God stops someone from sinning and that is proof that he could stop all and still have the world as we know it? Sure, God stops people from sinning everyday, I'm sure, but we are talking big picture here. And what are the reasons he stops some and not others? According to him, you have a choice whether to sin or not.

As far as this world being a testing ground, where to begin? 1 Peter 1:7 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

Deuteronomy 8:2"You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Wait, Hold up! According to Calvinist theology, God put whatever is in your heart there, and not only that, he did it irresistibly.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day, Renniks

We just disagree on what Justice means... and the function of primary and secondary causes.

Which nation did God use to judge his people and then judge them for their pridefulness? He did so to serve his purpose, he can do that he is God.

In Him,

Bill

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God did use wicked nations to judge his people, and he also judged the wicked nations. Again, because his people sinned in the first place, not because that was what he wanted them to do. In fact, Jesus said he longed to take Israel under his wing, but they refused.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Matthew 23:37

Hosea 6:6 reads, “For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.”
What God desires from his people he often does not get. To pretend otherwise renders a large part of scripture into nonsense.

renniks said:

God did use wicked nations to judge his people, and he also judged the wicked nations. Again, because his people sinned in the first place, not because that was what he wanted them to do. In fact, Jesus said he longed to take Israel under his wing, but they refused.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Matthew 23:37

Hosea 6:6 reads, “For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.”
What God desires from his people he often does not get. To pretend otherwise renders a large part of scripture into nonsense.

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Good Day,

My time is short tonight... but just to clarify Scripture that you mis quoted even though you pasted it.

He did not long for Israel he wanted the children of Jerusalem, not even Jerusalem proper but her children... Not sure how that is even germane.

In the New covenant they will all know God he writes his law on their hearts and causes them to walk in His ways.... he gets what he wants God wins!

You present a God that is eternally frustrated and has hopes and dreams, not plans and purposes... No thank you... Nonsense with in your presupposition yes, but according to the text not so much.

In Him,

Bill

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

You present a God that is eternally frustrated and has hopes and dreams, not plans and purposes... No thank you... Nonsense with in your presupposition yes, but according to the text not so much.

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God's spends a lot of the Bible showing and telling us about his frustration with his people. Sure he will win, but you have to ignore half of scripture to pretend he always gets his way.
Acts 7:51
You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you!
All through the Bible you see God's conditional promises to people, and his reaction to their rebellion. It just doesn't fit your tidy systematic theology.

Neostarwcc said:

This is a serious question although the answer sounds like a "duh! Of course not!" But let me explain If it wasnt for sin I never would have met my wife back in 2014 (curiously 3-4 months after I had accepted Christ). I never would have made so many friendships including Christian ones. I literally have over 20 active online friends that I talk to regularly and I continue to meet new friends each day. Thanks to God I will NEVER be alone EVER again!

God used sin to help me forgive my dad who used me as his punching and verbal abusing punching bag for over 95% of my life. That sin also eventually lead me to Christ.

So why can't Gods ultimate plan for my life Include sinning against him? If hes included sin into all of my hopes, dreams, hobbies, and ambitions? It is literally impossible for me to STOP living in sin without completely rejecting every part of my life that makes me happy and becoming a robot. Sin mind you that God gave to me!

Nobody gave it to me but God. God simply created me this way. So why cant Gods plan for our lives include sin? Especially people like me who know nothing else? It's literally eaten me from the inside and is ALL around my core being.

You might say if God gave these talents to me than they cant be sins. But, they are.

Click to expand...

The bible says:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one".

God's perfect plan for all people is to have a life with a little sin as possible. Sure sin occurs, and as another poster said, all things work together for the good of those who love God.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

But it is not God's plan for there to be sin in peoples lives.

Where I think people get it wrong however, is to become Pharisaical, and class every tiny thing as a sin. To the degree they have no life at all. Where as the bible tells us:

Ecc 7:16-18 Be not overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself? Be not overly wicked, neither be a fool. Why should you die before your time? It is good that you should take hold of this, and from that withhold not your hand, for the one who fears God shall come out from both of them.

This verse would suggest there is a measure of sin that God allows. As an example it may be watching a movie with magic in it, technically magic is a sin, but a movie may not be. It may be playing a computer game with mild violence, technically violence is a sin, but playing a game may not be.

It is not getting so hung up on the technicality of the word, that we destroy our lives. The key is "the one who fears God shall come out from both of them". As we fear and respect God, he clearly shows us what is sin, and what is not.

If sin never produced favorable results, no-one would do it.

PaulCyp1 said:

If sin never produced favorable results, no-one would do it.

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But for who, the sinner or those affected by the sin?