The Difference between Daniel`s 70th Week and the Tribulation.

Douggg said:

The problem with interpretation and application is not with me, nolidad.

In Revelation 9:16-18, it is describing the armies of the kings of the east, given the size of the armies. In particular, tanks, and artillery of land based armies.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed,(1) by the fire, and (2)by the smoke, and (3) by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

It appears to me the four angels, their role is to influence the leaders of four Asian nations, which combined would have the manpower for that size of army.

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14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Noticewhat tgeh angels were loosed for?

The bible says to kill a third part of men!

the 200,000,000 do not kill anyone- but their horses seem to do so!

And show SCripture that says the angels were loosed to influence the Asian leaders!

I have never even seen a tank or APC or remore artillery do the kind of stuff these horses do! Even symbolically tanks don't so that nor artillery.

And while we are at it. If REv. 9 shows an attack from the again forces now allied together, Why does REv. 16 say that is when they cross the euphrates?

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

YOu know it is much easier to keep verses together in the same chapter!

REad Chapter 9 again- the bottomless pit is opened and out comes hideous beasts. But they bear similarities to each other! and the latter verses could simply be adding more features the earlier verses did not. That is common in Scripture!

These creatures also slay 1/3 of all mankind! Now let us assume that of the current7.5 billion alive on earth say 40% have been killed by this point.

That still leaves 4 billion people! So are there really going to be 1.33 billion peaople easat of the euphrates (Iraq) to say the meditteranean? C'mon man!

nolidad said:

Several problems.

1. It is the angels that are loosed who are still sitting at the river euphrates, that kill 1/3 of the men! Not the kings of the east!

2. YOur narrative of the sixth seal is unwarranted. It is opinion to try to shoehorn scripture to fit your ideas instead of letting your ideas conform to Scripture.

Nowhere does it even imply that the drying up of the Euphrates cause the kings of the east to change their mind in attacking the antichrist and decide to ally with him. It is clear that the antichrist is th eworld ruler after he deposed 3 of the ten rulers of the world and the other 76 give their allegiance to HIm

This event just makes it easier for the eastern hordes to gather at the valley of Jezreel to join their forces!

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YOu make an unwarrantred assumption on the kings of the east and these 200,000,000 and that those kings are coming to attack the antichrist.

YOu are imposing on Scripture things not there. The bible clearly says what the purpose of the four angels are are to loose the river and kill 1/3 of mankind! This passage does not even say there is an invading hoirde.

When it does mention the kings of the east in Chapter 16 they are gathering themselves to battle agains t the Lord! Everything else is assumption on your part.

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

The angles had one purpose to slay 1/3 of mankind! The bible says nothing else! anywhere!

As for the horsemen? Why not the horses/scorpions in the same chapter! They were loosed to wreak havoc with mankind! The Euphrates is not dried up to make way for the kings of the east till chapter 16! YOu are bouncing back and forth with no real warrant to do so!

YOU try to make this fit Daniel 11 and yet forget that Daniel 11 is talking of one man who is a king. So when do all the other events of chapter 11 take place for this same king of verse 36-the end????

nolidad said:

YOu make an unwarrantred assumption on the kings of the east and these 200,000,000 and that those kings are coming to attack the antichrist.

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I think you need to check the population of China.

YOu are imposing on Scripture things not there. The bible clearly says what the purpose of the four angels are are to loose the river and kill 1/3 of mankind! This passage does not even say there is an invading hoirde.

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I show you right in the text of Revelation 9:16-19, that a third of mankind is killed by the 200,000,000 army, represented as horsemen - which is going to include all kind of war machines - figuratively the horses - right in the text, and you still argue against it?

Revelation 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

It is not by the mouths of the four angels. It is from the war machinery of the 200,000,000 strong army.

nolidad said:

I have never even seen a tank or APC or remore artillery do the kind of stuff these horses do! Even symbolically tanks don't so that nor artillery.

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no, you are wrong. I was in the artillery for 3 years, a M109 howitzer battalion. Back at the time, artillery had nuclear capability.

nolidad said:

As for the horsemen? Why not the horses/scorpions in the same chapter! They were loosed to wreak havoc with mankind! The Euphrates is not dried up to make way for the kings of the east till chapter 16! YOu are bouncing back and forth with no real warrant to do so!

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Regarding the general approach to end times bible prophecy,
all of end times bible prophecy has been presented to man in segments. Each segment only contains partial information. The segments may cover the entire 7 years, or maybe only half of the 7 years, or maybe prior to the 7 years and end of the 7 years.

Daniel 7:19-27 , for example, is a segment, covers the little horn, his beginning and his end. But it doesn't mention the abomination of desolation, for example.

Matthew 24:14-31 is another segment. But it doesn't say anything though about the vial judgements, for example.

Revelation 11:3-11:13 is also segment. About the two witnesses.

Revelation 12:6-17 is also a segment. Addressing specifically Israel and the Jews.

Those are just some examples. All of the end time bible prophecies have been presented that way to man - in segments.

Within each segments there appears to be chronologically driven order given. But then we have to figure out how that information fits in conjunction with the information in the other segments.

Douggg said:

I show you right in the text of Revelation 9:16-19, that a third of mankind is killed by the 200,000,000 army, represented as horsemen - which is going to include all kind of war machines - figuratively the horses - right in the text, and you still argue against it?

Revelation 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

It is not by the mouths of the four angels. It is from the war machinery of the 200,000,000 strong army.

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Maybe, maybe not! But there is nothing in the text that says this is an Asian army. you are simply adding that to teh text based on a misreading of Daniel 11 and then taking the events of teh trumpet judgment and adding it to the bowl judgment! All because Euphrates and the east are mentioned in the three! That is not exegesis but eisegesis.

But let us look at the passage again:

REv. 9:
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

These four angels have been bound at Euphrates. they had one purpose- to slay 1/3 of mankind!

Then immediately we go to verse 16:

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

The whole chapter talks about creatures released from he abyss- angels released to kill 1/3 of men. And a mysterious army that is described just like the abyss creatures.

YOu say that this is Asia attacking the Antichrist based on connecting Daniel 11 and REv 16 with this passage (once again you have a problem with this being a trumpet judgment and the kings of the east crossing Euphrates is a bowl judgment)

So let us look at Rev. 16 again :

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The bowl of rev. 16 is to prepare the way for the kings of the east- but you say it is the 6th trumpet that prepares the way.

Rev. 16 says the purpose of drying up the Euphrates is to gather the eastern armies together with the rest for the battle of the great day of God almighty. REv. 9 says nothing about drying up teh Euphrates- just that four angels that were bound there are set free to kill 1/3 of mankind!

But you say that The angels being loosed of rev. 9, and the drying u of the Euphrates in Rev. 16 are so that the armies of the east could attack the antichrist to connect it with Daniel 11.

You forget that by this time of Rev. 9 the anitchrist is World ruler- He already has suppressed the three kings and the other 7 have given them his allegiance and He rules the world.

YOu say in th emidst of the attack the eastern armies change their miind and decide to ally themselves with the antichrist.

You speak of modern army mobile vehicles. Well that would be a quick change of mind as the euphrates is only 490 miles from the Jordan and you have the antichrist sitting in Jerusalem at this time. That is less than a two day journey for an army that is unopposed! But once again that is you simply inserting things into the biblical narrative.

Douggg said:

Regarding the general approach to end times bible prophecy,
all of end times bible prophecy has been presented to man in segments. Each segment only contains partial information. The segments may cover the entire 7 years, or maybe only half of the 7 years, or maybe prior to the 7 years and end of the 7 years.

Daniel 7:19-27 , for example, is a segment, covers the little horn, his beginning and his end. But it doesn't mention the abomination of desolation, for example.

Matthew 24:14-31 is another segment. But it doesn't say anything though about the vial judgements, for example.

Revelation 11:3-11:13 is also segment. About the two witnesses.

Revelation 12:6-17 is also a segment. Addressing specifically Israel and the Jews.

Those are just some examples. All of the end time bible prophecies have been presented that way to man - in segments.

Within each segments there appears to be chronologically driven order given. But then we have to figure out how that information fits in conjunction with the information in the other segments.

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I understand that end times has to be seen in the segments presented.

I have taught eschatology for over 25 years both as a series in church, in bible Institute and a year long course in bible College!

I would recommend to you "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
that is m y text I use in my classes and teaching. It is probably the best written in depth study of Eschatology ever written.

But let me ask you a question.

For what reason does Jesus return to earth?

nolidad said:

I would recommend to you "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
that is m y text I use in my classes and teaching. It is probably the best written in depth study of Eschatology ever written.

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Well, I would not. Most Jews I don't think, are receptive to picture one of their own being the Antichrist, so they have to package him as a gentile, and not a Jew.

nolidad said:

I would recommend to you "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
that is m y text I use in my classes and teaching. It is probably the best written in depth study of Eschatology ever written.

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Does the book promote the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War?




.

nolidad said:

I would recommend to you "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
that is m y text I use in my classes and teaching. It is probably the best written in depth study of Eschatology ever written.

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Does the book espouse a pretrib rapture, which was unknown by the overwhelming majority of the historical true Christian Church prior to the 19th century?

If so, how is it "the best written in depth study of Eschatology ever written"?

Douggg said:

Well, I would not. Most Jews I don't think, are receptive to picture one of their own being the Antichrist, so they have to package him as a gentile, and not a Jew.

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Your gifts are truly amazing! Not only did Jesus tell you who the 1/3 of mankind are that the 200,000,000 asians kill, now he has secretly told you what a born again believer would not be comfortable with , without even reading a page of His Book! That is truly truly amazing!!!!!

And what gleaned information do you rely on that causes you to conclude that most of the 18,000,000 Jews would not be comfortable believing that someone they do not believe in, couldn't be a Jew????

BABerean2 said:

Does the book promote the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War?

.

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Remind me again what this two people of God thing is that I am supposed to believe in????

If by that you mean th echurch is different from the believers in the old testament- well that is the bible.

jgr said:

Does the book espouse a pretrib rapture, which was unknown by the overwhelming majority of the historical true Christian Church prior to the 19th century?

If so, how is it "the best written in depth study of Eschatology ever written"?

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Well wit hyour sarcastic prejudcie setr aside- why don't you read it and find out? Or is that too much of a burden for you. To actually read a book before you comment on it.

And if you studied church history to know why amillenialism held sway over the church from the 4th century till the late 18th early 19th century you would not be making such uninformed comments.

nolidad said:

Well wit hyour sarcastic prejudcie setr aside- why don't you read it and find out? Or is that too much of a burden for you. To actually read a book before you comment on it.

And if you studied church history to know why amillenialism held sway over the church from the 4th century till the late 18th early 19th century you would not be making such uninformed comments.

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Can you provide the name of any saint between the first and fourth centuries who espoused a pretrib rapture?

Or do you agree that rapturism=modernism?

PS You should investigate something known as a "spell checker".

nolidad said:

Your gifts are truly amazing! Not only did Jesus tell you who the 1/3 of mankind are that the 200,000,000 asians kill, now he has secretly told you what a born again believer would not be comfortable with , without even reading a page of His Book! That is truly truly amazing!!!!!

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You are being sarcastic. And bearing false witness as well. Just stick to the subject matter.

And what gleaned information do you rely on that causes you to conclude that most of the 18,000,000 Jews would not be comfortable believing that someone they do not believe in, couldn't be a Jew????

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I am basing my opinion on that I have never heard a Jew who is a Christian say that the person who becomes the Antichrist will be a Jew.

Of nonbelieving Jews, I have had a lot of discussions with them on the topic. At the messiah truth virtual yeshiva site, I have made over 10,000 posts discussing with, arguing over, and learning about their views, since 2004, 15 years.

nolidad said:

Well you are making an interpretation- which is forbidden!

YOu are taking the events of the 6th vial- putting them chronologically as the events of the sixth bowl- adding opinions that the Word does not even imply anywhere and making conclusions. That is horrendous exegesis!

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Everyone is making interpretations, including you.

I have no idea of what you are talking about - the vials can also referred to as bowls, of God's wrath.

There are
7 seals
7 trumpets
7 vials (bowls)

nolidad said:

YOu have the 200,000,000 horsemen being an Asian horde marching west to Babylon or Jerusalem.

And while they are marching to make war with the antichrist, at the midpoint of the trib (the time,times and 1/2 time let us know it is halfway through the 70th week), They kill at least 1.5 billion people on the way from Asia to the Middle east, and then change their mind and decide to ally with Antichrist while he is busy rising from the dead and trying to commit all out genocide against Christians and Jews! all the while the viasl judgments are coming and the sixth vial which according to you has become the sixth trumpet are getting ready to happen.

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No, not at the midpoint. But near the end of the 7 years. Delete the part you made, I highlighted in brown.

One of the major problems you have in discussing the end times, is that you don't distinguish the person in his different roles. The person is no longer in the role of being the Antichrist near the end of the 7 years, but the beast.

nolidad said:

Golly Gee!

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Golly
Origin

late 18th century: euphemism for God.

Gee
Origin

mid 19th century: perhaps an abbreviation of Jesus.

Dispensational discourse?

nolidad said:

I spent 25 years teaching end times theology

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Matthew 15:14
...if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

jgr said:

Can you provide the name of any saint between the first and fourth centuries who espoused a pretrib rapture?

Or do you agree that rapturism=modernism?

PS You should investigate something known as a "spell checker".

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The Apostle Paul!

Douggg said:

You are being sarcastic. And bearing false witness as well. Just stick to the subject matter.

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Yes I was being sarcastic! No I wasn't bearing false witness! I do - you were th eone who ame up with these Nostradamus type predictions of who the 200,000,000 will kill and the fact that youc ould trash an authors book without even reading it!

Douggg said:

Everyone is making interpretations, including you.

I have no idea of what you are talking about - the vials can also referred to as bowls, of God's wrath.

There are
7 seals
7 trumpets
7 vials (bowls)

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YTes I know vials and bowls are the same.

When I interpret something I usually try to let people know I am making opinion and not declaring something teh Bible does not say.

Douggg said:

No, not at the midpoint. But near the end of the 7 years. Delete the part you made, I highlighted in brown.

One of the major problems you have in discussing the end times, is that you don't distinguish the person in his different roles. The person is no longer in the role of being the Antichrist near the end of the 7 years, but the beast.

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Same person doing different things and all the titles refer to Him! antichrist, beast, man of sin, man of lawlessness, the abomination who makes desolate etc.. I don't care what new title you want to give him- they all belong to HIm and the Bible clearly shows what He does! At the midpoint after HIs resurrection, and the "false Prophet" causing the image to speak- He wages all out war against Israel and Christians!

Well you say the 200,000,000 mentioned at REv. 9 (which is the midpoint) is the asian horde and at teh sounding of the 6th trumpet you have them killing one third of mankind! So what so they do in between? go back home and return again as the sixth seal says? I don't know, it is hard following your stuff!

nolidad said:

Same person doing different things and all the titles refer to Him! antichrist, beast, man of sin, man of lawlessness, the abomination who makes desolate etc..

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That's like calling President Obama, as Senator Obama when he is no longer Senator, but President. Nobody does that. But it is similar to you calling the person the Antichrist when he has later become the beast.

If you want to refer to the person in the universal sense - just refer to him as "the person". But if you are talking about at a certain point right before and during the 7 years, use the correct role term for the person for that time.

When he is the beast, say beast; when he is the Antichrist, say Antichrist; when he is the little horn, say little horn; when he is the revealed man of sin, say the revealed man of sin.

nolidad said:

Well you say the 200,000,000 mentioned at REv. 9 (which is the midpoint) is the asian horde and at teh sounding of the 6th trumpet you have them killing one third of mankind! So what so they do in between?

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The entire world will be following the beast, buying into his claim of being God; until the trumpet and vial judgements begin falling on the world, creating food and energy shortages, getting worse as the Great Tribulation advances. And the beast appearing incapable of stopping the judgements.

Which at the height of the Great Tribulation, the beast will be funneling the dwindling supplies to his base Kingdom of the ten EU leaders. The other three alliances of the world will have no choice but to attack
the beast residing in Jerusalem, bringing all nations into the middle east, a prelude to the Great Battle of the Lord God Almighty.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Look at my chart, I show the riders, and the black horse reflecting food shortages of Revelation 6:5. Just follow right down through the chart from upper left to lower right. It shows all of the horses at the right places. If you click on the chart it will zoom it in.

nolidad said:

The Apostle Paul!

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But no one after him agreed with him?