The Christian Right is Helping Drive Liberals Away From Religion

Sparagmos

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Actually most evangelical churches focus on homosexuality and not so much on other sexual sins. I've seen a morally inconsistent pattern emerge among many evangelical Christians over the years and that is many of these Christians are divorced and remarried (once or twice or more) or many of the Christian men (including pastors) within the evangelical churches are addicted to inappropriate contentography.

We have these Christians judging and condemning homosexuals when their own lives and churches are plagued with other sexual sins like lust, fornication and adultery. And ironically enough, the majority of these Christians politically support and defend a twice divorced adulterer (in his third marriage to his former mistress) and well known womanizer as their prized and beloved President.

If these Christians want to cast stones at homosexuals, then they had better be prepared for some pushback and reminders of their own sins. Those who live in glass houses should not thrown stones.
Yes, I think you’re right.
 
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NotreDame

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Orthodoxy has been since the beginning, passed down by the apostles, and history is on our side. We are correct. Your new age stuff is not.

Nothing you just said demonstrates you and your doctrinal beliefs are "correct." The fact you can trace the origin of your doctrinal beliefs to 70 C.E. does not demonstrate those doctrinal beliefs are correct. Alleging to have traced those doctrinal beliefs to the apostles, a dubious claim indeed but assuming you can, that is also not convincing. The veracity of your doctrinal beliefs is not demonstrated by alleging the source of those doctrinal beliefs to be the apostles. A belief originating with the apostles is not correct because the belief originated with the apostles. A belief is not true because of the person who is the source of the belief. Humans are flawed, they make mistakes, and are renown for espousing mistaken beliefs. Quite possibly, all you may have is a very old incorrect belief, an incorrect belief dating back to 70 C.E.

There are contemporary Christians today who can trace their beliefs to the very early Christian church era and, doctrinally, there is nothing to support their wacky beliefs. But according to you, their beliefs are correct because of their age and lineage, two things which absolutely have nothing to do with the veracity of their beliefs.

Current day flat earth Christians and geocentric Christians invoke scripture for their beliefs the earth is flat and at the center of the solar system. They have the benefit of tracing those beliefs back to the era of the early Christian church, or further back. Yet, those beliefs are not doctrinally sound because of age, history, or source.

Neither is "new age stuff" mistaken because it is "new" or relatively "new." That logic is ponderous. Based on this reasoning, some Christians and denominations adopting a heliocentric view, and also of the belief the earth was spherical as opposed to flat, were wrong because the heliocentric view was "new age stuff" when compared to the geocentric and flat earth belief.

You have said absolutely nothing that sensibly or rationally establishes your doctrinal beliefs are correct and those doctrinal beliefs on the subjects matter you referenced are incorrect. Nothing.
 
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carp614

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Actually most evangelical churches focus on homosexuality and not so much on other sexual sins. I've seen a morally inconsistent pattern emerge among many evangelical Christians over the years and that is many of these Christians are divorced and remarried (once or twice or more) or many of the Christian men (including pastors) within the evangelical churches are addicted to inappropriate contentography.

We have these Christians judging and condemning homosexuals when their own lives and churches are plagued with other sexual sins like lust, fornication and adultery. And ironically enough, the majority of these Christians politically support and defend a twice divorced adulterer (in his third marriage to his former mistress) and well known womanizer as their prized and beloved President.

If these Christians want to cast stones at homosexuals, then they had better be prepared for some pushback and reminders of their own sins. Those who live in glass houses should not thrown stones.

I put to you that it is not the church that is focusing on homosexuality, but society. The churches whose preaching I consume are responding to the world, not the other way around.

And your point on moral inconsistency suggests a failure to understand the absolutely universal nature of sin. No one on earth is sinless. So anyone and everyone who preaches the gospel is a foul hypocrite. Their inherent hypocrisy does nothing to diminish the truth and the power of the Gospel if you start from the idea that sin is totally pervasive. One must of course distinguish between sin being dealt appropriately by a Christian and unrepentant sin. Surely a drunken preacher should not be listened to, but a recovering alcoholic who has real sobriety and real repentance only enhances the Gospel.

Calling sin a sin is not casting stones. I am continually amazed by this sentiment. Every single time I have been able to nail down the details of these scenarios with an individual, it comes to light that the person felt convicted by the message and chose to characterize it as the preacher's fault. The preacher says Homosexuality is a sin, the person feels offended and looks for ways to tell the story so that the preachers moral authority to call sin a sin is damaged. "Well he is divorced/smokes/had an affair/sneezed during the sermon..." They then leave the church and tell everyone they were made to feel unwelcome having been treated with love and kindness by everyone they came into contact with including the pastor. Their conscience was what made them uncomfortable, the Holy Spirit is what grieved them of their own sin, and they chose to point at someone else sin rather than deal with their own. The laziest, easiest way to ignore your own unrepentant sin is to point out someone elses. In today's world, this has practically become a cultural prerequisite for discussing opposition to any particular point of view.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Calling sin a sin is not casting stones.

If that had been the totality of the church's response to homosexuality, then you'd have a point.

I am continually amazed by this sentiment. Every single time I have been able to nail down the details of these scenarios with an individual, it comes to light that the person felt convicted by the message and chose to characterize it as the preacher's fault. The preacher says Homosexuality is a sin, the person feels offended and looks for ways to tell the story so that the preachers moral authority to call sin a sin is damaged. "Well he is divorced/smokes/had an affair/sneezed during the sermon..." They then leave the church and tell everyone they were made to feel unwelcome having been treated with love and kindness by everyone they came into contact with including the pastor. Their conscience was what made them uncomfortable, the Holy Spirit is what grieved them of their own sin, and they chose to point at someone else sin rather than deal with their own. The laziest, easiest way to ignore your own unrepentant sin is to point out someone elses. In today's world, this has practically become a cultural prerequisite for discussing opposition to any particular point of view.

I have zero temptation regarding homosexuality. A preacher could call for fire and brimstone against every homosexual and I would have absolutely zero pangs of guilt or conviction; it's just not something that I deal with. My conscience is completely clear.

Yet, I have heard many Christians - some pastors, some media figures, some ordinary individuals - use language about homosexuals that I find abhorrent - language that has, at times, been so ignorant, so hateful, so dishonest, so hypocritical, so unbalanced that at this point in my life, I would walk out in the middle of a service if I heard it preached from the pulpit. And I've been hearing it for decades. You're well within your rights to blame it all on guilty consciences, but you're wrong and people can generally see through that. It's possible to label something as sinful while appreciating the struggles associated with it and without being a jerk, yet many Christians seem to not be interested in that approach, preferring instead the warm fuzzies that come with angry self-righteousness.
 
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timothyu

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Are not most of these churches that dwell on a couple of 'sins' while ignoring others, politically motivated? Do they not focus on these 'sins' while blatantly ignoring what sin actually is, in order to promote a political agenda claiming to represent God, when in fact they represent that which opposes God, the will of man?
 
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GACfan

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If that had been the totality of the church's response to homosexuality, then you'd have a point.

I have zero temptation regarding homosexuality. A preacher could call for fire and brimstone against every homosexual and I would have absolutely zero pangs of guilt or conviction; it's just not something that I deal with. My conscience is completely clear.

Yet, I have heard many Christians - some pastors, some media figures, some ordinary individuals - use language about homosexuals that I find abhorrent - language that has, at times, been so ignorant, so hateful, so dishonest, so hypocritical, so unbalanced that at this point in my life, I would walk out in the middle of a service if I heard it preached from the pulpit. And I've been hearing it for decades. You're well within your rights to blame it all on guilty consciences, but you're wrong and people can generally see through that. It's possible to label something as sinful while appreciating the struggles associated with it and without being a jerk, yet many Christians seem to not be interested in that approach, preferring instead the warm fuzzies that come with angry self-righteousness.

Well said. If you've noticed, there's a very distinct pattern among many evangelical conservatives when it concerns homosexuality and that is to firmly condemn homosexuals without question, but on the other hand, we hear "Who among us is without sin?" and some angry pushback against judging other people when it concerns other sexual sins like lust, adultery, and fornication.
 
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carp614

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If that had been the totality of the church's response to homosexuality, then you'd have a point.



I have zero temptation regarding homosexuality. A preacher could call for fire and brimstone against every homosexual and I would have absolutely zero pangs of guilt or conviction; it's just not something that I deal with. My conscience is completely clear.

Yet, I have heard many Christians - some pastors, some media figures, some ordinary individuals - use language about homosexuals that I find abhorrent - language that has, at times, been so ignorant, so hateful, so dishonest, so hypocritical, so unbalanced that at this point in my life, I would walk out in the middle of a service if I heard it preached from the pulpit. And I've been hearing it for decades. You're well within your rights to blame it all on guilty consciences, but you're wrong and people can generally see through that. It's possible to label something as sinful while appreciating the struggles associated with it and without being a jerk, yet many Christians seem to not be interested in that approach, preferring instead the warm fuzzies that come with angry self-righteousness.

Pick any scenario or example you like. Replace the word homosexuality with any other sin you care to and the logic stands. That said, disliking self righteousness is almost as universal as sin is, so I find myself in full agreement with you there.

My point is that the church is not doing the driving away work, culture is. You said if you heard a preacher say something like that you would walk out. That's good and I share your attitude about it. I'm simply pointing out that I have never had to actually walk out because the leader of the church, the pastors I have heard, never say those sorts of things. My guess is you have never had to walk out either. Because the kinds of statements we are talking about don't come from the authentic church leadership on the right, who are for the most part loving, kind, and Christlike. They come from regular people who are ignorant of the true meaning of the Gospel and have their own hang ups and hurts coming out.

Similarly, vilifying conservative Christianity or blaming people leaving the church on the religious right is a red herring. If the mere existence of hypocrites and self righteous people is sufficient reason for a person to walk away from the Gospel, then they have failed to grasp the message of the Gospel and the requirements of Discipleship to begin with.

Culture is driving people away from he church, not the religious right.
 
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Paulos23

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Culture is driving people away from he church, not the religious right.

Funny, I would say it was the other way around. Calling someone sinful for who they are is not a good way to bring them to church. Nor is a church attractive when it casts judgements on people.

I always felt one went to church not to be blamed but to be forgiven. Not to be righteous, but to be helped. The more I see of the right wing in churches, condemning people, the more I see people leaving.

It is no suprise that people leave when you are treating them or the ones they care about as dirt.
 
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timothyu

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and some angry pushback against judging other people when it concerns other sexual sins like lust, adultery, and fornication.
Well for now they do have to cover their own butts and indiscretions. But someday the homosexuals may overtake their club and the rules may get reversed.
 
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timothyu

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Funny, I would say it was the other way around. Calling someone sinful for who they are is not a good way to bring them to church. Nor is a church attractive when it casts judgements on people.
But that was the whole purpose of Jesus saying the will of man is not the will of God so repent/change. The church is supposed to teach the difference between Kingdom and world of man, not condone will of man over will of God. Of course as noted, individuals should not be picked out. All should be condemned for being self serving.
 
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Paulos23

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But that was the whole purpose of Jesus saying the will of man is not the will of God so repent/change.
But why does it have to be forced on others? Why does it have put into laws?

Why does the right wing Christianity have to be the standard everyone is forced to follow, when it is not followed by the leaders of that movement?

Why can't it be a personal thing and not a political deal?
 
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timothyu

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But why does it have to be forced on others? Why does it have put into laws?
As I said, what Jesus said applies to ALL. What these faux Christians are doing (being part of the ALL) is drawing attention away from themselves by pointing out others. Their motive is not servitude but to be served.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But why does it have to be forced on others? Why does it have put into laws?

Why does the right wing Christianity have to be the standard everyone is forced to follow, when it is not followed by the leaders of that movement?

Why can't it be a personal thing and not a political deal?
As multitudes have seen, men are often misleading. (i.e. false teachers, etc)

Find the TRUTH.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Pick any scenario or example you like. Replace the word homosexuality with any other sin you care to and the logic stands.

The logic may stand, but the real-life manifestation of those sentiments does not. With perhaps one or two exceptions (e.g. abortion), conservative American Christianity has not doggedly attacked other sins the way it has attacked homosexuality.

My point is that the church is not doing the driving away work, culture is.

I understand your point; I just don't agree with it.

I'm simply pointing out that I have never had to actually walk out because the leader of the church, the pastors I have heard, never say those sorts of things. My guess is you have never had to walk out either. Because the kinds of statements we are talking about don't come from the authentic church leadership on the right, who are for the most part loving, kind, and Christlike. They come from regular people who are ignorant of the true meaning of the Gospel and have their own hang ups and hurts coming out.

You're right - I haven't had to walk out. But that's because as my tolerance for such things has diminished, my ability to sniff them out ahead of time and avoid them altogether has improved. Some of that is due to learning certain "tells" about a church's culture; some of that is just technology - most everybody has online sermons these days so you don't even have to guess about how they do things.

I wold argue that your lack of experience with these preachers is due more to your own selectivity than their non-existence.

Culture is driving people away from he church, not the religious right.

Why can't it be both?
 
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Paulos23

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As I said, what Jesus said applies to ALL. What these faux Christians are doing (being part of the ALL) is drawing attention away from themselves by pointing out others. Their motive is not servitude but to be served.
That is great, but that is not the message people are getting out here. The right wing has the bullhorn, and is not giving a good image of Christianity.

And I fear it is causing the political divide to widen.
 
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timothyu

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That is great, but that is not the message people are getting out here. The right wing has the bullhorn, and is not giving a good image of Christianity.

And I fear it is causing the political divide to widen.


Where are the promoters of the Christian left. In that case then who declared the right exclusive rights to Christianity. Has this become a matter of tradition like Christianity itself?

The point is neither side represent the will of God They are the will of man.They don't rrepresent the governance of God, they represent the governance of man. So even considering them Christian is a moot point.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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That is great, but that is not the message people are getting out here. The right wing has the bullhorn, and is not giving a good image of Christianity.

And I fear it is causing the political divide to widen.
That is great - the people seeking truth, trusting the Father, must learn not to go by the "image of Christianity" in the world,
and must learn to separate themselves from the worldly counterfeits and heresy and idolatry.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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I find the Conservatives right to be stingy
I can relate to that. I thought of this as I read your post: “The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians: who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.” - Brennan Manning
The atheists I know have more morals ,than Conservative Christian I know. And many of the problems Conservative Christians.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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Do you not wish to be part of the body of Christ because many of its members support Trump?
I find it hard to believe anyone in the body of Christ would have voted for Trump. If you're trying to claim the Conservative Christian right is the body of Christ.And don't give the best of two evil nonsense. Hillary wasn't the only one running against Trump.
 
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