Salvation Cannot be Lost

renniks · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
When do you believe (or the church you were raised in) a person is "sanctified"?

Well, they believed it was a second work of Grace, similar to the conversion experience. I tend to go with the lifelong process theory.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 18, 2019

I said this:
"The ONLY condition for eternal security is to be given eternal life. John 10:28. And the ONLY condition for receiving eternal life is to believe in Christ. John 5:24, 6;47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Please quote any Scripture that says so.

jerry kelso said:
When a person believes, they are changed forever:

1. born again. How can anyone UNdo that?
2. new creature. What verse says we revert back to old creature?
3. indwelling Holy Spirit. What verse teaches any NT believer can lose the Spirit? In fact, Eph 1:13,14 makes clear that "having believed", the believer is sealed with the Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption for God's possession (sealed believers).

Why can't you prove your opinion from Scripture; that losing salvation is a possibility.

Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 refute your opinion."

jerry kelso said:

freegrace,

1. Sorry, but works of obedient are requirements of God not our works to merit.

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Instead of more opinions, how come you never engage my points and answer my questions?

Eternal life is an eternal substance but the possession is not a guarantee and not a guarantee because we’ve received an eternal substance.

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Please explain this confusion. And while you're at it, explain WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life, and with verses.

John 10:28 is one verse and is not the complete context.

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News flash. It is a complete statement about the result of possessing eternal life.

Verse 27; My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.
The condition is that the sheep hears his voice and follows him.

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Error alert!! There is NO condition mentioned here. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO. You are misreading the verse.

Verse 25 were unbelievers because they believed not.
The sheep are believers and in that state will never lose their salvation.

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v.25 is irrelevant to v.27 and 28.

Your second sentence is NOT found in the Bible. Certainly v.28 makes NO statement about "in that state". That's only your additions (opinions) to Scripture.

You know what Revelation says about adding to Scripture.

No man can pluck out the Father’s hand because Christ secured his children.
This doesn’t mean that Christians can’t backslide, fall from grace to apostasy on their own accord of their own volition.

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Hold on a sec. Jesus said "no one can snatch them (believers) out of the Father's hand". OK, what does "no one" include? It means "no person".

Is a believer a person? Of course. So Jesus was including EVEN the believer him/herself about who CAN'T remove His sheep from His and His Father's hand.

5. John 5:24 is true in the state of grace.

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You are vainly trying to add your own opinions to Scripture.

John 5:24 is true, period. When a person believes, they HAVE eternal life. And Jesus included a future promise: they will not be judged (condemned).

Nothing about having to be in a "state of grace".

John 6:47 is true because it is God’s promise for those who are saved when one believes.

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Not only saved at that moment, but also given eternal life. Upon which, they shall never perish.

Christ does his part but we have to cooperate with him by living Holy. This is God’s requirement for us.

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If you believe that is a requirement for salvation, then you don't believe Scripture.

Be ye holy for I am Holy.

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Yes, I know the verse. Now, prove it refers to being holy for salvation, as you are insinuating.

6. 1 John 5:11,13; this shows that we can have assurance of salvation by being a Christian.

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No, the assurance comes from what Jesus said about having eternal life.

7. Christ has given us free will choice. The proof that Christians can sin shows that God will not force us to do do what we don’t want to do.

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Obviously. But that in NO WAY suggests or even hints that our free will choice can Undo what God has done for every believer. Why do you think such silly thoughts?

8. Born again? When a person changes masters is who he is servant to Romans 6:12.
It is us that that can depart from the faith not God 1 Timothy 4:1.

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I have no idea what you are trying to say in your first statement. And your second statement doesn't mean departing the faith results in loss of salvation.

If that were true, it is such an important concept that the Bible would have SAID SO CLEARLY. And no Arminian can find any such verse. As I love to point out.

9. New creature reverting back to the old creature James 5:19-20.

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I have to question your reading ability here, because there is NOTHING about reverting back to anything. It's simply a statement about saving a sinning believer from God's divine discipline of physical death.

10. Indwelling Holy Spirit .
Ephesians 1:13-14. The Holy Spirit seals but salvation is not complete till our inheritance is purchased which will be when we have passed our test at the end of our life.

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This opinion cannot be supported from Scripture. But I challenge you to find any.

11. We can grieve the Holy Spirit despite being sealed. Nothing about eternal security in being sealed.

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Apparently you do not grasp what "guarantee" means then.
Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

v.14 tells us the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the day of redemption. 4:30 also says believers are sealed for the day of redemption.

What you seem to think it says is "day of judgment" or "day of condemnation", or some other such nonsense.

But there's more, to help you understand eternal security.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, (heard that before? Eph 1:14) and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We KNOW "what is to come" from Eph 1:14 and Eph 4:30. Don't we. Of course we do.d

But you just keep resisting the truth. Why?

12. 2 Corinthians 1:22 says nothing about eternal security in being sealed unconditionally across the board.

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Uh, "across the board"?? Why do you think you are so special as to be able to demand wording of your own opinions? You just flat out reject the obvious truth of Scripture.

13. I have already given you examples of those who were saved and lost their salvation but you refuse to believe the word.

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I certainly DON'T believe your word. And NONE of your so-called examples showed anything about losing salvation.

How about this: give me a verse and then exegete it so that I can see your actual thought process about what words mean to you.

You have refused to comment on the last post about I die daily and answer my question on the context.

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I've given you a thorough explanation of what that means.

You have no scripture for your position because you don’t understand context or how to reconcile the scriptures properly together in harmony.
Jerry Kelso

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Thanks for your own opinions. To which you are free to express.

But know this: your opinions are NOT supported by Scripture. Your opinions are an ADDITION to Scripture, of which Revelation warns against.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 18, 2019

I said:
"OK, go back to Rom 1:16,17 and show me where it says we have to live by faith from first to last in order to be saved."

renniks said:
17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

All you did was re-quote v.17. That is no answer. I challenged you to prove your opinion, and you failed.

v.17 doesn't say anything about "in order to be saved". Not even the concept of that.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 18, 2019

renniks said:
Oh good grief. That's some exegesis worthy of a cult. You spin like a top.

LOL. Thanks for your opinion.

Now that you've gotten that off your chest, I invite you to actually show some scholarship and unpack my ""worthy exegesis". Just throwing insults at someone without any substance is not worthy of serious discussion. Kinda like arguing with a child, of which I know you are not.

Just take the verse for what it says, to have no inheritance in the kingdom of God, is to not inherit the kingdom. I really can't take you serious anymore.

Well, go ahead and prove your opinion with substance.

All you seem to be able to do is throw insults. Where is the substance of your opinions.

Because all 3 passages have the same context, they are analogous. So the statements about the kingdom are equated.

So, instead of more insults, please try to prove your thesis.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 18, 2019

renniks said:
Well, they believed it was a second work of Grace, similar to the conversion experience. I tend to go with the lifelong process theory.

There is no such thing as a "second work of grace". God's grace isn't numbered anywhere in Scripture.

renniks · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
All you did was re-quote v.17. That is no answer. I challenged you to prove your opinion, and you failed.

v.17 doesn't say anything about "in order to be saved". Not even the concept of that.

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Who are the righteous?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 18, 2019

renniks said:
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Who are the righteous?

Believers, who are credited with the righteousness of Christ.

Now, please try to prove your opinion.

jerry kelso · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
No, that would be you.

The opposite is true. You haven't proved your opinion from Scripture.

Of course he is.

yes. yes. yes. yes. But none of this is the point. In spite of what you seem to think is the point.

Are you aware that other religions include a physical resurrection. So your comment isn't truthful.

So? Not even scholars understand what Paul was referring to by 'baptism for the dead'.

But, maybe you know more than biblical scholars. So, please, enlighten me on what that was about.

First, I just did. Second, I never give excuses. And my objections are based on truth, which I back up with Scripture.

freegrace,

1. If you agree the passage is about physical resurrection then where is the information about the war of the flesh against the spirit in that passage?
The fact is you can’t show it. You can try. I’m curious what kind of answer you come up with. Jerry Kelso

FreeGrace2 · Sep 18, 2019

jerry kelso said:
freegrace,

1. If you agree the passage is about physical resurrection then where is the information about the war of the flesh against the spirit in that passage?
The fact is you can’t show it.

Oh, get real.

You can try.

Really. Get real.

I’m curious what kind of answer you come up with. Jerry Kelso

Be curious no longer.

Why would there be info about the war between flesh against the Spirit in that passage?

Why do you think there should be? Why can't Paul speak about future physical resurrection without included something that you think should be?

Your question implies you are smarter than Paul and are criticising him for not including something that isn't there.

jerry kelso · Sep 18, 2019

jerry kelso said:
The ONLY condition for eternal security is to be given eternal life. John 10:28. And the ONLY condition for receiving eternal life is to believe in Christ. John 5:24, 6;47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Please quote any Scripture that says so.

When a person believes, they are changed forever:

1. born again. How can anyone UNdo that?
2. new creature. What verse says we revert back to old creature?
3. indwelling Holy Spirit. What verse teaches any NT believer can lose the Spirit? In fact, Eph 1:13,14 makes clear that "having believed", the believer is sealed with the Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption for God's possession (sealed believers).

Why can't you prove your opinion from Scripture; that losing salvation is a possibility.

Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 refute your opinion.

freegrace,

1. Sorry, but works of obedient are requirements of God not our works to merit.

2. Romans 4:1-5 talks about justification of grace without works.
Christ work on the cross was all his own.
Doing good works to merit eternal life is the kind of work that will not save you.
Just because the Jews were of the same bloodline of Jesus earthly life and because of being God’s chosen nation cannot give you eternal life.

3. Justification by works in the act of salvation is faith without works is dead in James 2:17-26.
One has free will choice and can make a cognitive choice to serve God when the Holy Spirit has illuminated their need for the Savior to forgive them of their sins.
Paul said to believe in your heart and confess I your heart that Jesus died, was buried and rose again.
Believing and confessing are requirements of obedience.
Justification by works is the fruit that you have believed and confessed your sins. God knows the heart and when God knows the heart is wanting to choose God and has faith believing then only God can stamp the approval that a person is saved and only he can apply the blood to the person and wash away his sins.

This is the proper perspective on the difference of Justification by grace and Justification of Works.
Your salvation by works accusation because of cooperation is debunked by the scripture and is your keeping of the word “works” in your definition and context alone so you can claim to be right.

4. Eternal life is an eternal substance but the possession is not a guarantee and not a guarantee because we’ve received an eternal substance.
John 10:28 is one verse and is not the complete context.
Verse 27; My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.
The condition is that the sheep hears his voice and follows him.
Verse 25 were unbelievers because they believed not.
The sheep are believers and in that state will never lose their salvation.
No man can pluck out the Father’s hand
because Christ secured his children.
This doesn’t mean that Christians can’t backslide, fall from grace to apostasy on their own accord of their own volition.
Also, Jesus is speaking to Israel who has an unconditional covenant to all be saved to receive the land and the Kingdom of Heaven reign. Receiving the unconditional covenant is conditioned by the nation receiving salvation Roman 11:29; the gifts and callings are without repentance. This is the covenant that will happen in the future Romans 11:25-29.

5. John 5:24 is true in the state of grace.
John 6:47 is true because it is God’s promise for those who are saved when one believes. Christ does his part but we have to cooperate with him by living Holy. This is God’s requirement for us.
Be ye holy for I am Holy.

6. 1 John 5:11,13; this shows that we can have assurance of salvation by being a Christian.

7. Christ has given us free will choice. The proof that Christians can sin shows that God will not force us to do do what we don’t want to do.

8. Born again? When a person changes masters is who he is servant to Romans 6:12.
It is us that that can depart from the faith not God 1 Timothy 4:1.

9. New creature reverting back to the old creature James 5:19-20.
James is talking to Christians that err from the truth and one conversation him he has converted the sinner from the error of his way and shall save a soul from death and shall hide a multitude of sins.

10. Indwelling Holy Spirit .
Ephesians 1:13-14. The Holy Spirit seals but salvation is not complete till our inheritance is purchased which will be when we have passed our test at the end of our life.

11. We can grieve the Holy Spirit despite being sealed. Nothing about eternal security in being sealed.

12. 2 Corinthians 1:22 says nothing about eternal security in being sealed unconditionally across the board.

13. I have already given you examples of those who were saved and lost their salvation but you refuse to believe the word.
You have refused to comment on the last post about I die daily and answer my question on the context.
You have no scripture for your position because you don’t understand context or how to reconcile the scriptures properly together in harmony.
Jerry Kelso[/QUOTE]

freegrace,

1. You don’t address or rebut about the justification by grace and justification by works. Care to take a stab at it? Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
It is clear that Paul had Rom 8:13 in mind in that verse.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Paul understood the fact that each believer has a choice; to live according to the flesh (human sinful nature) or or according to the Spirit (new, born again nature).

This is how he described the struggle:

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

freegrace,

1. You say that you agree with 1 Corinthians 15 is about physical resurrection and yet you believe the context is about the struggle between the flesh and the spirit. Where is that found in 1 Corinthians 15 in the first 31 verses? Jerry Kelso

renniks · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
LOL. Thanks for your opinion.

Now that you've gotten that off your chest, I invite you to actually show some scholarship and unpack my ""worthy exegesis". Just throwing insults at someone without any substance is not worthy of serious discussion. Kinda like arguing with a child, of which I know you are not.

Well, go ahead and prove your opinion with substance.

All you seem to be able to do is throw insults. Where is the substance of your opinions.

Because all 3 passages have the same context, they are analogous. So the statements about the kingdom are equated.

So, instead of more insults, please try to prove your thesis.

You haven't proven anything though. All you have stated is your opinion, by throwing out three verses that all clearly mean one doesn't go to heaven without belief and you claim that one of them means something different with for absolutely no reason.

renniks · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
There is no such thing as a "second work of grace". God's grace isn't numbered anywhere in Scripture.

Depends whether you believe in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, as has often happened at various times in various churches and such as happened at Pentecost is meant to happen to every Christian.

1. I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. -Joel 2:28

2. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. -Acts 2:4

3. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. -Acts 2:38

As I said, I tend towards it being a process, but I'm not about to limit what the Spirit may choose to do for anyone.
Here are some verses speaking about the progressive nature of our Christian lives as it relates to sanctification.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 12:1, 2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

renniks · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Believers, who are credited with the righteousness of Christ.

Now, please try to prove your opinion.

17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[f]

What don't you understand about faith being from first to last and the necessity to continue living by faith?
It's right there, clear as day, I don't know how you could fail to see that faith must continue for one to be considered among the righteous.

Phil W · Sep 18, 2019

renniks said:
There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake. Ecc. 7:20

Making a mistake on the balance in your check book is a whole lot different that satisfying a fleshly lust at the expense of self or others.

Yes, we walk in the Spirit. Yes, I pray that everything I say and do is filtered through the Spirit.
But belief that you do not sin is itself a sin of pride.

Or, a glorification of God's will being done on earth today, and a testimony of Jesus' conquest of sin.

Phil W · Sep 18, 2019

jerry kelso said:
philw,
1. Do you believe that you are not sure of salvation till judgement?
The wording you used seemed to imply that.
If you do then you are wrong according to scripture. This was the reason for showing 1 John 5:13.

Today, I do believe I will inherit eternal life.
I believe I will never be tempted above what I can bear. (1 Cor 10:13)
But to say what I will believe in a year or two is not mine to declare.

2. The argument between Calvinists and Arminians is Unconditional and Conditional Eternal Security.
You believe in the extreme of Calvinist for you believe you can’t sin at all for no reason.

Though not at all familiar with what those doctrines encapsulate, I believe that AS LONG AS I BELIEVE that I am reborn of God's seed I cannot bear evil fruit.
What I believe in a year or two...?

3. I have not changed any position for the word has not changed. The faithful will get to Heaven.

Bingo.
The faithful will get to heaven.
Do folks ever lose their faith?

4. The law had atonements for sin and we have forgiveness through the blood of Jesus.
David was still a believer in spite of sinning.
The Jews in Ezekiel 18 believed God was unequal in accepting the wicked repenting but would not save them if they didn’t repent.
They were mad that God would not remember their righteousness anymore if they did not repent because they were his chosen people. The righteousness of the law was those that do them shall live in them.
God is no respect of persons and can only punish sin whether in the new or the old covenant.
James was speaking to Christians in James 5:19-20 when he said if a brethren errors from the truth and one converts him converts the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul and hide a multitude of sins.
You don’t believe this?

Yes, I do believe it.

5. Peter was hypocritical because he ate with the gentiles then withdrew and separated from them because he was afraid of the secular Jews. Yes he sinned because he knew better and Paul’s point was not being justified by the works of the law and said Peter was not actually acting righteous! which is being unrighteousness which is sin.
It didn’t mean he was going to Hell. Even under the law all sins were not death penalty sins.

Hypocritical IF living as a Gentile...and free of the Mosaic Law
Not hypocritical if living as a Jew...and still abiding by the Law...but not necessarily FOR salvation.
"Thousands" in Jerusalem were.

6. A person doesn’t lose their salvation till they reject living for Christ and change back to living for the devil.
Romans 6 bears this out.

Correct.
Endure till the end!!

7. Jesus never fails, it is man that fails even Christians.
We have free will choice and obviously you don’t believe that or you believe you choose what God wants all the time because you are so in tune with God.
Even Wesley’s sinless perfection didn’t believe that you didn’t have the possibility to sin.

If a Christian "fails", he isn't a Christian anymore...is he?
Presently, I use my freewill to please only God.
In a year or two I hope I am still of the same mind.

8. What is a bunch of baloney is your refusal to rightly divide the word.
9. Gods promises are true if you believe in faith and follow through by doing them.

"IF".

10. Have you done everything God has ever asked you to do without fail since becoming a Christian?
Have you ever been in a situation that you offended someone?
Have you ever told a half truth? Have you ever failed to have faith?
Have you ever displeased God in any way?
Have you ever jumped the gun and judged someone wrongly before you got to know them?
Have you ever got upset with someone unfairly?
I ask these in real life experiences and not according to your doctrine. Jerry Kelso

Yes, without fail.
Failure would have admitted/manifested a separation from God.
It would have admitted/manifested I wasn't (re)born of Gods seed and was really of the devil's seed.

We are only Christians "IF" we obey God.

Phil W · Sep 18, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I was bought with a precious price, the preciousness of Jesus, and remain on His Side.

Amen, and praise be to the Lord.

Which side would you choose if not His ?

There is only one "other side"...the devil's side.

Phil W · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you not understand that people are guilty of many different sins? And yet you think that "one turn from sin" covers all the rest?
That is worse than naive.

If one "turns from" service to sin, it includes all disobedience(s) to God.
You can't quit murdering, committing adultery, stealing, and lying, but still occasionally pollute yourself with drugs.

You got a verse that supports your opinion here?
You got a verse that says any of this?

It's common sense!
If a man "turns from" ALL sin, but after two years in Christ remembers he once stole something fifteen years ago, isn't his repentance from sin still valid?

(These are answers to Post #387)...(for a reference check)

Phil W · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
My conclusion is based solidly supported by Scripture.
Jesus SAID that whoever believes POSSESSES (has) eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47.
The Beloved disciple said the same thing in 1 John 5:11 and 13.
Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (which MEANS those who have believed) shall never perish in John 10:28.
So my conclusions are biblical. Unlike yours.
In fact, none of the verses you've cited prove your opinions and claims.
Again, which verse SAYS THIS??? You don't have any such verse.
No, the OSAS doctrine is based solely on what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.
Since John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11 and 13 make it clear that one who believes POSSESES (has) eternal life. This clearly means that they possess eternal life WHEN they first believe.
It is on that basis that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Period.

Your salvation is contingent on belief.
To conclude that a man that quit sinning for a year, month or day was ever a believer is ludicrous.
Where was his faith in the escapes God provided from temptation? (1 Cor 10:13)
Where was his love for his neighbor?
Those walking in the flesh...instead of in the Spirit are NOT OF GOD. (1 Cor 6:9, James 4:4)

Phil W · Sep 18, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I wish you could realize that what Jesus said in John 10:28 means that by giving eternal life to the believer WHEN they believe means eternal security.

Your argument is with Jesus. He is the One who clearly taught eternal security, whether you like it or not.

I suggest you get over it and begin to like what Jesus taught.

"Your" heaven will be full of "one day" believers?
Like Ananias and Sapphira, Judas Iscariot, and Simon of Samaria?

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