Are We Too Smart for Our Own Good?

TraceMalin · Sep 18, 2019

Pedra said:
Still....you've been to the wrong ones. Listen good bible believing churches are hard to find, the type that is all man's religious traditions are the majority. There are small biblically based churches out there , few and far between but none the less Seek and ye shall find.

That's my entire point. It shouldn't be hard. "Bible-believing* is in the ear of the believer. The big picture is what unites us, but I get your drift.

miamited · Sep 18, 2019

Sabertooth said:
Though I can accept "Do this" and "Don't do that" from God's Word, "This is why we do this and not that" carries me a lot farther.

Hi sabertooth,

Sooo, 'because God says not to' doesn't qualify as a 'why'?

Personally, I believe that God is actually looking to fill His kingdom with those who agree and support His authority to know what is best for us. Whether we fully understand all of the ramifications and justifications thereof, God asks us to love Him, and Jesus explains to us that such love that we should have for God, is that we obey Him. Jesus said that if we love him we will keep his commands. He didn't say that when we understand all the reasons for 'why' there are such commands, then we should keep them.

So, I find that this seemingly unquenchable thirst to know all that there is to know, or even to seek much beyond just believing and trusting in what God asks of us, leads more of us to the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, than to the cross. After all, God seemed to think that it was sufficient just to tell Adam and Eve that eating of the fruit would bring death, without having to spend a book full of explanations as to 'why' eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would bring death.

Those are some of my thoughts on our feeling like we need to understand more than God's word tells us in explanation of things. God wants us to trust Him, despite our individual abilities to understand a lot of the 'why' we should trust Him. The born again believer trusts God because he/she does understand that God loves us and no matter what He tells us, He has our best interests at heart.

My encouragement is that if you really can accept God's word just saying "Do this" and "Don't do that", that's really all God is looking for, and in most cases, is all that God gives us.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Pedra · Sep 18, 2019

TraceMalin said:
That's my entire point. It shouldn't be hard. "Bible-believing* is in the ear of the believer. The big picture is what unites us, but I get your drift.

Well, it's not in the ear of the believer, it's a literal thing. There are many churches that do not teach the full counsel of God. There are many churches that don't believe the Bible is the God-breathed word of God. There are many churches/ denoms that decide only on what parts of the Bible they will believe & what they will dismiss - that is not a bible believing church by my definition of it.

TraceMalin · Sep 18, 2019

miamited said:
Hi sabertooth,

Sooo, 'because God says not to' doesn't qualify as a 'why'?

Personally, I believe that God is actually looking to fill His kingdom with those who agree and support His authority to know what is best for us. Whether we fully understand all of the ramifications and justifications thereof, God asks us to love Him, and Jesus explains to us that such love that we should have for God, is that we obey Him. Jesus said that if we love him we will keep his commands. He didn't say that when we understand all the reasons for 'why' there are such commands, then we should keep them.

So, I find that this seemingly unquenchable thirst to know all that there is to know, or even to seek much beyond just believing and trusting in what God asks of us, leads more of us to the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, than to the cross. After all, God seemed to think that it was sufficient just to tell Adam and Eve that eating of the fruit would bring death, without having to spend a book full of explanations as to 'why' eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would bring death.

Those are some of my thoughts on our feeling like we need to understand more than God's word tells us in explanation of things. God wants us to trust Him, despite our individual abilities to understand a lot of the 'why' we should trust Him. The born again believer trusts God because he/she does understand that God loves us and no matter what He tells us, He has our best interests at heart.

My encouragement is that if you really can accept God's word just saying "Do this" and "Don't do that", that's really all God is looking for, and in most cases, is all that God gives us.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Nice, Ted! By the way, if you live in Miami, I once lived on Segovia Street in Coral Gables.

Sabertooth · Sep 18, 2019

miamited said:
Sooo, 'because God says not to' doesn't qualify as a 'why'?

It is the first level of obedience. Even the Pharisees got that. If we understand His Heart on a matter, we can better obey the Spirit of the Law WHILE still fulfilling the Letter.

Jesus said,
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20 NKJV

Halbhh · Sep 18, 2019

TraceMalin said:
I like it. I think God wants us free of the burden of trying to seek what we already found.

Definitely when we find Him, nothing else compares. Nothing in this world ever comes close to that love, once we open our heart to God as Christ said through the 'greatest commandment'.

Endeavourer · Sep 18, 2019

A number of you have commented on the "do this/do that" aspect of Bible believing and churches' teachings on them.

In my experience, any church, pastor or book which makes a 250 page doctrine out of three verses, complete with about 100 ways you are sinning if you aren't implementing their 250 pages, should be assumed to be Pharisaical teachers full of vain doctrines.

A great area of offense in this regard are marriage books. I consider the worst to be Love & Respect, and books by Michael and Debbie Pearle, Martha Peace and Gary Thomas. These books not only make 250 page doctrines out of three verses, but cut them out from the rest of the Bible as if they are their own Bible and none of the rest of Scripture's counsel applies to them.

For example: any book that says sex is a man's need and a wife's duty and she should provide it as often as asked because it only takes a few minutes of the wife's time (for real, they say that) apparently has cut Song of Solomon out of their Bible, as well as the relationship model Christ provides between Him and his church.

Example #2: any book that believes wives are not to follow the verses in Proverbs about an angry man but instead "respect" his abusive behaviors unconditionally.

Example #3: any book that says husbands are to love their wives, but leave out the verse about "esteeming other better than self" and all the verses others like it.

I could go on and on.

I've really been enjoying this thread. Great stuff!

TraceMalin · Sep 18, 2019

Endeavourer said:
A number of you have commented on the "do this/do that" aspect of Bible believing and churches' teachings on them.

In my experience, any church, pastor or book which makes a 250 page doctrine out of three verses, complete with about 100 ways you are sinning if you aren't implementing their 250 pages, should be assumed to be Pharisaical teachers full of vain doctrines.

A great area of offense in this regard are marriage books. I consider the worst to be Love & Respect, and books by Michael and Debbie Pearle, Martha Peace and Gary Thomas. These books not only make 250 page doctrines out of three verses, but cut them out from the rest of the Bible as if they are their own Bible and none of the rest of Scripture's counsel applies to them.

For example: any book that says sex is a man's need and a wife's duty and she should provide it as often as asked because it only takes a few minutes of the wife's time (for real, they say that) apparently has cut Song of Solomon out of their Bible, as well as the relationship model Christ provides between Him and his church.

Example #2: any book that believes wives are not to follow the verses in Proverbs about an angry man but instead "respect" his abusive behaviors unconditionally.

Example #3: any book that says husbands are to love their wives, but leave out the verse about "esteeming other better than self" and all the verses others like it.

I could go on and on.

I've really been enjoying this thread. Great stuff!

Bingo! Then your spouse reads it and endlessly tries to fix what wasn't broken.

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

TraceMalin said:
Much of the New Testament is directed toward leadership.

Yes and routinely taken advantage of by those seeking worldly power.

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

fhansen said:
We over-complicate it all.

Is that not also a way of saying sit down and do as you are told?

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

Kaon said:
We still use combustion for transport...

Summer neighbour had a cow that was hit by lightning. Ignited the methane inside and propelled the cow over a fence. So combustion is a natural form of transport in nature... but it didn't turn out well for the cow or it's rocket hind quarters.

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

TraceMalin said:
Then your spouse reads it and endlessly tries to fix what wasn't broken.

Wasn't that part of their marriage vows?

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

eleos1954 said:
The Word of God is written for everyone ... yes a small child can basically understand it ... yet ... in it's entirety it has immense depth.

The immense depth is that we are backwards to God's will and the Kingdom. But a child already knows that and easily sees the hypocrisies until it is 'trained' out of them.

carp614 · Sep 18, 2019

I wish I could contribute something more meaningful to the discussion, but alas, I simply cannot get these deep metaphysical concepts to go into my brain. I try to interact with these ideas, but quickly find myself lost in the morass of the high minded. I could never have succeeded in seminary.

Speaking strictly for myself, I say yes I have been entirely too smart for my own good. Too "smart" to believe I needed the Lord. Too smart to comprehend how badly I need God's grace, mercy, and guidance. Too well educated to believe in fairy tales. Too knowledgeable about the secular things of this world to believe. What intellect I possess as largely been an obstacle to my faith until recently. Knowing enhanced my natural stubborness and pridefulness and made it very difficult to let go, to submit. Only pain changed my attitude.

To the extent that this applies to others I would say it's true more broadly. I'm sure I'm not the only one with these kinds of experiences.

Kaon · Sep 18, 2019

timothyu said:
Summer neighbour had a cow that was hit by lightning. Ignited the methane inside and propelled the cow over a fence. So combustion is a natural form of transport in nature... but it didn't turn out well for the cow or it's rocket hind quarters.

It's natural, but so is plasma and superatomic structure. We had enough elegant knowledge of classical E&M from the 1950s to be able to produce pure, clean forms of travel/energy consumption/weaponry/medicine/etc.

His student · Sep 18, 2019

TraceMalin said:
I enjoyed the wisdom and simplicity of the Greek philosophers. These were the elite of their time. Yet, they were not at a Kantian level. The Greeks were the ones to whom Paul brought Christ. Paul was the Ph.D. of his time. Jesus, on the other hand, spoke to the poorly educated. His own disciples were often confused by his teachings and parables which seem obvious to us today. Yet, God chose these fishermen, tax collectors, and others to teach the message of salvation instead of the most learned temple priests, judges, or rabbis. Their words were easily understood by shepherds, laborers, craftsmen, soldiers, mothers, and others who didn't study the Tanakh in a formal way.

I enjoy watching the progression and current regression of philosophical thought over time. It wasn't one of my majors in college but it was one of my favorite pursuits.

But I'm not sure such studies would have served me or you well without the basic gospel truth of salvation by grace to anchor us and keep us from drifting too far off course.

I really enjoy discussing theology. But I find that many people have drifted pretty far off course from the basic salvation by grace through faith gospel.

That is why I always try to bring things back eventually to the basic "what must I do to be saved" question posed by the Philippian jailer and to the answer he received as my theological anchor.

I do that when discussing theology with those I consider my fellow believers and I do the same thing when discussing theology with one of the cults on my front porch.

I.e. - what does this or that teaching or way of looking at a certain scripture do to tht basic gospel?

I always try to leave an intramural discussion or a discussion with a cult member with that basic question.

Of course we don't always end up at the same place. But at least I've done my best to challenge any further intellectual pursuits with the basics of salvation by grace through faith.

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

carp614 said:
Knowing enhanced my natural stubborness and pridefulness and made it very difficult to let go, to submit.

Always difficult to get past what the world has taught you since birth in order to see the world and man for what we are... backwards. Christianity doesn't help either considering it has been hiding how it rejected the Kingdom for the world of man also. Not much believable out there so seeing past it is a great first step when seeking truth.

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

Kaon said:
. We had enough elegant knowledge of classical E&M from the 1950s to be able to produce pure, clean forms of travel/energy consumption/weaponry/medicine/etc.

Or as the Moody Blues once said... 'thinking is the best way to travel'. (but that was a decade later)

timothyu · Sep 18, 2019

His student said:
But I'm not sure such studies would have served me or you well without the basic gospel truth of salvation by grace to anchor us and keep us from drifting too far off course.

What is logical to God and the Kingdom is illogical to man and the world of his making.

fhansen · Sep 18, 2019

timothyu said:
Is that not also a way of saying sit down and do as you are told?

Well, that is what revelation is all about, yes. Or sit down and I'll tell you how things are in this universe. In any case man needs to know-and people have and receive many different opinions using Scripture as the sole source of revelation. Even highly-credentialed biblical scholars can disagree completely on Scriptural interpretations.

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