Where is the biblical proof for a private prayer language in tongues?

DamianWarS said:

let's stop right there... i think I've read enough. the fact that this is your first point suggests it is your strongest point but it lacks any real study.

to start James 1:25 "perfect" is masculine, not neuter, so whatever told you that is wrong. How do I know this? because "law" is masculine not neuter and adjectived (like perfect) agree with case, number and gender from its head noun. So whatever "law" is all adjectives describing it are the same. James 1:25 "law" is masculine in gender, singular in number and accusative in case... so James 1:25 "perfect" is the exact same.

your mistake perhaps is that they carry the same inflection. The root word is strongs 5046
"teleios" but in context James 1:25 says "teleion" which is the exact same in 1 Cor 13:10 (also "teleion") but the difference is 1 Cor 13:10 is neuter, singular, nominative. So what's that mean? does it mean it points to a head noun that is also neuter, singular, nominative? well have a fun time trying to find one... in actuality, it points to what's calls a substantive adjective meaning it is abstract and acts by itself (this is unique to neuter nominative adjectives without head nouns) So 1 Cor 13:10's "perfect" refers to something abstract and "the perfect" is a suitable way of translating it. As an abstract, it can point to anything fitting for an abstract but rather than just filling in the blank we should look for something that can be responsibly supported through scripture and if we are honest an eschatological event is the only thing that can be.

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First, I believe the Bible does not say anything different in the English vs. the Biblical Greek. So whatever it says in English, it was taken from the Biblical Greek. It's when people's interpretations upon what the Biblical Greek says is where we run into a problem. They favor a dead language they don't know over the English language (Which is a language they do know).

Second, nobody on the planet today truly knows Biblical Greek with 100% certainty like Paul did. It's a dead language. So we are making guesses at best. At the end of the day, we have to be faithful to the Word of God in what it says in our own language and not a language that is not our own that we never grew up with and it is no longer in operation today. Sure, there is Modern Greek, but it is not the same as Biblical Greek. We also cannot assume scholars are not biased to their religious views when they give us certain interpretations in various Lexicons, either. But we can read the Bible in English and know it in English because nobody can pull a fast one on us with the English language. We know English. But we really don't know Biblical Greek.

Three, the word "perfect" and the word "glass / mirror" are both used in James 1 and 1 Corinthians 13. Except James 1 defines it as the Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13 defines how love will last forever. The Bible helps us to love God in the proper way. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). All Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works (See: 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Four, the point about 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 (Which I believe is significant and clear to see for those who want to see it) is not the only point I presented for the defense of the cessation of the miraculous gifts. I have provided other points based on Scripture, as well. So it is not scant evidence as you claimed before whereby I am basing my belief upon here. It is a systematic biblical belief, my friend.

So far we have 1 Corinthians 14:2, 1 Corinthians 14:28, Romans 8:26, and 1 Corinthians 13:1 as a defense for a private prayer done in tongues behind closed doors (When nobody is looking).

First, Paul is criticizing the Corinthians for the misuse of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. So Paul is talking in critical or condemning tone in 1 Corinthians 14:2, and 1 Corinthians 14:28. Paul's whole point is to speak in tongues publicly with an interpreter, otherwise they were to keep silent. Paul never clearly tells the Corinthians to pray in tongues behind closed doors (When nobody is around).

Second, Paul says that tongues are not for those who believe, but they are for the unbeliever (1 Corinthians 14:22). To the Jews, foreign tongues was a sign of judgment. Think... Tower of Babel. Think... Jewish Exile.

Three, Paul says he will pray in the spirit, and he will pray with the understanding also. Paul here is saying that we should speak in tongues with an interpreter so as to gain understanding. Paul is saying that if we pray, we must pray in a way that brings clarity or understanding so as to build others up.

Four, think why does God not want a person to speak in tongues without an interpreter in the body of Christ or in church gatherings? It is because it does not edify the body by giving any kind of understanding to anyone. It is a lack of love. One would be just a noisy cymbal or clanging gong. They would just be making noise to their fellow listeners and they would not be building up the body. Jesus says love your neighbor as you would yourself. So if we love our neighbor, it should be reflected in the way we love ourselves, too. So if we love the body of Christ by not speaking in tongues without an interpreter, then we should do the same behind closed doors. But how can one do that unless there is an interpreter present?

Five, speaking words you do not know in private seems to fall in line with the condemnation of the words of Jesus that say, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." (Matthew 6:7). Many of the tongues speaking of today have words that are repeated over and over. They are vain repetitious words.

Romans 8:26 is talking about groanings that cannot be uttered. Meaning, they are feelings within you that cannot be placed into any kind of actual words. This would include tongues because they are the formulation of words of some kind (even though they are not recognizable). They are still words in some form that can be uttered (even if they are not intelligible words).

1 Corinthians 13:1 is not describing how believers can speak in an angelic language. Paul is speaking metaphorically. He is using exaggeration. For he says in the same chapter that if we understand all knowledge and all mysteries, etc.; Surely no believer can understand all mysteries and have all knowledge. Only God has full knowledge of everything. Paul is building up his point that he want to make in 1 Corinthians 14. He is trying to say that we cannot be unloving by speaking in tongues without an interpreter because such a thing does not edify the body.

Der Alter said:

This is all unsupported opinion. I have been a witness to divine healing following prayer. In one case the Drs said the person would not live through the night. The person lived 2 more years. In another case x-ray showed a broken bone one day, 2 days later no broken bone.

While this is true believers can still benefit.

That there is abuse/misuse does not change the benefits of the gift.
I have seen instances of "tongues" which appeared to me to be less than genuine where the person was repeating syllables e.g. La la la la. And instances where it appeared genuine it had the cadence and pattern of a language.
I was in a revival in Louisville Ky once where Paul Yong Gi Cho was to preach. During the hymns prior to the message a man stood up and began speaking loudly. It did not have the rhythm or cadence of a language. When there is a service in progress I don't think God is going to interrupt Himself and inspire someone to stand up and speak in tongues.
But none of that is my concern. God will separate the wheat from the chaff.

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Again, this thread is not the validation of your experiences. This thread topic is about biblical support for a private prayer language in tongues done behind closed doors when nobody's looking.

Saint JOHN said:

Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST worship [him] in spirit and in truth....new test command ( if you love me keep my commandments...)

ie...
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is
unfruitful.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

IN the CHURCH (public) it only a demo to prove you are what you say (true Christian )..(as long as there is an interpreter) otherwise only private use (closet )
mark 16v16 + etc
undefillable God given language....read Acts when they REALLY received the Holy Spirit they spoke in tounges as the spirit gave utterance etc....same today..!!

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Well, these verses cannot be read in a vacuum. There is the context. Paul says to pray in the spirit and to pray with the understanding also. Paul is condemning the idea that a believer can pray without an interpreter or without the understanding. Paul's whole point is clarity of information and understanding for edification. Paul says tongues are for the unbeliever and not for the believer (1 Corinthians 14:22). When Paul says I pray in the spirit, and I pray with the understanding, he is telling them that they need an interpreter. Verse 2 is a condemnation of speaking in tongues without an interpreter. That is what he is saying in verse 2. He says that if they speak in tongues, only God can understand them, and no man understands him because they are just speaking mysteries that is not benefiting the body of Christ to their edification (Keep reading on into verses 3-4). The whole chapter lays it out of how Paul is condemning of how a believer cannot speak in tongues without an interpreter. He is not endorsing the use of private prayer in tongues as an alternative. He is criticizing their misuse of tongues and says that tongues are for the unbeliever.

If tongues are for the unbeliever, that pretty much rules out any idea that we can pray in tongues behind closed doors (when nobody is present).

Ricky M said:

Lemmee take one more shot (knowing I'm wasting my time)....

You recently dismissed tongues because Paul said they edify the speaker as opposed to the church. Funny thing that while Paul called them the least of the gifts, it is still the only one he wished we would all do (which pretty much on it's own renders your whole premise wrong). You are right, we are to think of others first... which is why, as the only gift that edifies the user, it is the least. Yet Paul still says things like the aforementioned 'I wish you would all do it', 'I thank God I speak in tongues more than any of you', and most tellingly his admonition "DO NOT FORBID SPEAKING IN TONGUES". That verse all by itself is all the proof you need to show your belief is wrong, since your belief is to strictly forbid them. You believe that in DIRECT opposition to scripture because it doesn't support your agenda.

So, not only have I shown here that you are wrong about them not existing, I have shown that I (and others) are right in saying that you are indeed promoting an agenda in violation of scripture, and not interested in discerning the truth.

And now watch, you're going to prove again that you don't care to even consider it.

Which is why I'll go back to my original premise, which is answering your question is a waste of time.

God bless you with understanding and discernment. But I'm outta here.

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This was command was said to the Corinthian church and or for believers during that time period, and it was not a command for believers of all time. If you were to do a study on God's Commands in the New Testament (like I have done), you would be able to recognize that there are commands that were only given to certain individuals and or commands given to that particular church only. Even Jesus gave a command for a man to offer an animal sacrifice after he reconciled first with his brother. But that does not mean we still offer animal sacrifices, though. That command by Jesus only applied during the time of the Old Covenant (Which was before the cross).

Ricky M said:

Lemmee take one more shot (knowing I'm wasting my time)....

You recently dismissed tongues because Paul said they edify the speaker as opposed to the church. Funny thing that while Paul called them the least of the gifts, it is still the only one he wished we would all do (which pretty much on it's own renders your whole premise wrong). You are right, we are to think of others first... which is why, as the only gift that edifies the user, it is the least. Yet Paul still says things like the aforementioned 'I wish you would all do it', 'I thank God I speak in tongues more than any of you', and most tellingly his admonition "DO NOT FORBID SPEAKING IN TONGUES". That verse all by itself is all the proof you need to show your belief is wrong, since your belief is to strictly forbid them. You believe that in DIRECT opposition to scripture because it doesn't support your agenda.

So, not only have I shown here that you are wrong about them not existing, I have shown that I (and others) are right in saying that you are indeed promoting an agenda in violation of scripture, and not interested in discerning the truth.

And now watch, you're going to prove again that you don't care to even consider it.

Which is why I'll go back to my original premise, which is answering your question is a waste of time.

God bless you with understanding and discernment. But I'm outta here.

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So do you want to understand why I believe the command that says, "forbid not to speak with tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:39) given to the Corinthians and the believers during that time does not apply anymore?

Here are several points in Scripture in defense of the ceasing of the miraculous gifts:

#1. Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

#2. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.

#3. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).

#4. Believers were built upon the foundation of the apostles. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is built upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9). This shows the temporary nature of one of the gifts because the gift of apostleship is a foundation that was already laid already with the saints being built upon such a foundation.

#5. Jesus suggested that there would be the kind of believer who would not see, and yet they would believe anyways. For Jesus said, "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29). This suggests that there would be believers who would not need miracles in order to believe. Jesus showed proof that the miracle of His resurrection was real to Thomas in the fact that he had him feel his side, etc. He wanted to physically have proof in order to believe. But Jesus said there will be those who will not see and yet they will believe. Jesus says they are more blessed because of this. It suggests that believers will not need of the continued operation of the working miracles of God in their life in order to continually believe. In other words, there will be a time when believers will walk by faith, and not by sight.

Der Alter said:

If I have violated a rule report me. If you are not a moderator do not lecture me. Everything in my post was a direct response to your post.

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Moving on from talking to you until you come back on topic to the thread OP.
May the Lord's blessings be upon you.

Der Alter said:

Don't criticize me for doing what you yourself were doing.

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My thread, means it is my rules on what I want to discuss.
For I can easily rename the thread title to include the related topic of discussion (that I talked about). Besides, the Cessation of the miraculous gifts relates to the topic of the thread as a biblical basis as to answer the question. I asked people to answer with the Bible. Your topic is unrelated to the OP because you are not using the Bible to answer the topic (Which is something I specifically mentioned as a part of my question).

Update:

Now, God was talking to my heart at lunch on what I had written. I do want to apologize to you for making points that were outside Scripture in my defense for Cessationism. I went back and edited out of my posts that listed the various points that mention outside experience from the Bible. So my apologies to you on that one, friend.

Blessings to you in the Lord Jesus Christ today.

DamianWarS said:

who do you think made the English? people who know and understand the Greek. if greek is unknownable then we wouldn't have any translations. But if you want to use the English then this is fine, 1 Cor 13:10 uses "the perfect" with no head noun and this happens to have the same effect as I mention the greek shows that it becomes abstract. Where James explicitly has a head noun (in English) so "perfect" does not act alone and it describes it's head noun which is "law". the same word is used other times describing other things (again in English) such as a "perfect man", "perfect tabernacle", or "perfect love" to name a few. So what did you do? put them all in a hat and pick one out?

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I don't want to get into an endless Greek and English argument. That is not the point of this thread. But in the English, it is clear that the "perfect" is referred to the Law of Liberty (i.e. NT Law). This New Testament Law is referred to closely in relation to God's Word (Scripture) in relation to it being a mirror that we look into. 1 Corinthians 13 also mentions a mirror or glass and it also mentions the word "perfect." Paul's point is love in 1 Corinthians 13. Love will always remain. Just as God's Word will always remain. Love is also tied to God's commandments (John 14:15). Surely this is not all some kind of coincidence. It all ties together. But somehow you don't want the pieces of the puzzle to fit because it goes against your belief.

perfect and glass/mirror are both used but differently. in James, it's used to show something that's already here and perfect which is the law/word but in Corinthians, it's used to describe something that has yet to come which is perfect. So they are not talking about the same thing.

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The "perfect" that is yet to come is referring to the Word of God (the perfect law of liberty) being completed with the close of the canon of Scripture (with Revelation).

You said:

it is clear these are your main points. why bury your strongest points? they are weak at best and your denial of being able to understand Greek is disturbing and speaks to an ingrained bias you refuse to let go. We cannot have this discussion if you refuse to speak at the same level, you are welcome to bury your head in the sand but I'm not doing it with you.

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My point stands all on it's own. It really does not need any defending. But you also need to address my other points in Scripture, as well (Instead of focusing on just this one particular point alone).