Ministry Mid-career Change

My church doesn't have an internship system, but it does require our ordinands to do a field placement every year. And each field placement is different, because it is designed around the learning needs of the student.

So, if the student has a social work degree and has experience in counselling, I'm probably not going to get them to do that kind of work, because that's not what they need to learn; I'm going to get them up the front, learning how to lead liturgy and preach, or learning how to plan a small group study, or some other thing that they don't know yet. If they only do what they're already good at, they won't learn the other skills and have the other experiences that they need.

That said, though, they might need to do some pastoral visiting to learn how their role is different in ministry as opposed to in social work. But that would be something to explore with the student. It's about giving them opportunities to learn what they haven't done before.

Like with any specialist wouldn't it then take 6 months to get in to see you?

Let's face it; a lot of ministry is being a gofer and doing everything. If you're not prepared to clean up the rubbish on the steps as a student, will you be prepared to do it when you're the minister?



I have heard some older people talk about the difficulty of going from being a professional to going back to being a student, but I don't think it's because their tasks are inappropriate; it's always going to be difficult to go back to a stage where you don't have the knowledge and skills yet.

ChicanaRose said:

I have seen seminary students act as a kind of gofers in the church, doing everything. I don't know if that is to teach humility, or as a result of shortage of people. But it can be humiliating for someone coming in mid-career--take the trash out, sweep the steps, etc. not using his full potentials... or maybe it's good for that person to learn humility, coming from a secular world where he used to be the boss (?)

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Last Sunday the pastor made an impassioned case for the glorification of any and all service in the church. He painted mopping up as equally important as preaching.

I remember when I had just finished my MBA and gotten my first job out of the service as a sales person. Instead of selling, they put me in the warehouse filling orders. I tried to do a good job at first, but soon I was incensed. What a waist of my education I thought. I pridefully thought I was above the work they were asking me to do and made it known. I stayed in the warehouse a lot longer as a result.

Two decades later I am much better at humbly working as if working for the Lord, no matter what the task. In truth, I would very much like to do other things. I would very much like to move up. And if I'm honest, I still sometimes get frustrated that the world has failed to recognize my brilliance. Then I repent to the Lord and ask forgiveness for my pridefulness and I go back to shoveling proverbial poo with a glad heart. I work to accept that God is doing a work in me and that I must not only humbly wait for his timing, I must learn to do the waiting well and with a glad heart, while working to prepare for the step up I wish to take in the future.

I guess I'm saying that I believe it takes a true servants heart, willing to do anything to serve to be effective in ministry. I wonder if that is true?

Paidiske said:

Let's face it; a lot of ministry is being a gofer and doing everything. If you're not prepared to clean up the rubbish on the steps as a student, will you be prepared to do it when you're the minister?

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All that study and no one tumbled why Jesus taught outside?

I love work that is intellectually challenging as well as work that very mindless. The type of work that I dislike the most is work that is super-boring and yet not mindless enough to be able to think of other more interesting things or go into a meditative state while doing it, i.e. being in the "zone". Vocational ministry is a mixture of both the wonderful and the crappy all at one time. Pastors of small congregations deal with it all, regardless of their strongest and weakest skills. You do the things you are both gifted and not gifted at doing because there is typically no one else to get it done.

I also volunteer in a wildlife center at my local zoo and help care for various types of animals, which I love, but it also involves a lot of more mundane tasks too. We have to keep everything everywhere in the center clean and disinfected (basically it's a hospital environment, but for animals), do lots of laundry, for both animals and humans (we wear scrubs), and wash many dishes, prepare diets, keep up with inventories, etc. Sometimes volunteers come in expecting it to just be always about working directly with the animals (or worse, playing with them), and then do not return when they find out it's actually a whole lot of physical labor mixed in.

carp614 said:

I guess I'm saying that I believe it takes a true servants heart, willing to do anything to serve to be effective in ministry. I wonder if that is true?

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"I shouldn't have to do this," might be the worst thought that can come into a minister's head.

Now, there do have to be boundaries. You have to guard your own down time and prayer time (ie. if it's my day off, I'll come if you're dying, but not if you're having a minor issue that can wait until tomorrow).

I think it's not just about being willing to do anything, but about being willing to put your whole self into what you do. If you try to hold back on that, sooner or later you're going to come undone, because ministry leaves no part of you untouched.

carp614 said:

Last Sunday the pastor made an impassioned case for the glorification of any and all service in the church. He painted mopping up as equally important as preaching.

I remember when I had just finished my MBA and gotten my first job out of the service as a sales person. Instead of selling, they put me in the warehouse filling orders. I tried to do a good job at first, but soon I was incensed. What a waist of my education I thought. I pridefully thought I was above the work they were asking me to do and made it known. I stayed in the warehouse a lot longer as a result.

Two decades later I am much better at humbly working as if working for the Lord, no matter what the task. In truth, I would very much like to do other things. I would very much like to move up. And if I'm honest, I still sometimes get frustrated that the world has failed to recognize my brilliance. Then I repent to the Lord and ask forgiveness for my pridefulness and I go back to shoveling proverbial poo with a glad heart. I work to accept that God is doing a work in me and that I must not only humbly wait for his timing, I must learn to do the waiting well and with a glad heart, while working to prepare for the step up I wish to take in the future.

I guess I'm saying that I believe it takes a true servants heart, willing to do anything to serve to be effective in ministry. I wonder if that is true?

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One of the things our pastor looks for in leaders in the church is servanthood. Do they help out after service? Do they stay late and help clean the bathrooms? That is one of the most important qualities that he looks for. When I was asked to be a teacher, I was serving at the media counter, back then we had audio tapes, and people would check them out. I loved it. But the pastor saw my heart and wanted to promote from within. Later I had to finish trade school and started a family so I was unable to continue teaching. But it was a sweet time. Pastors would do well to follow his example and promote only people who are currently serving in the church. Many hire from without, you don't know if they are a cheat, or what. My friend had a realestate business, and while I was doing evangelism and teaching it, some people brought tracts to us. This realestate company purchased tracts for us, and they guy that actually did the purchasing went to our church and was a solid believer (at least we thought), he ended up embezzeling a few hundred thousand dollars, and fleeing the state. So that is a good lesson for me and I hope others here, you may think you know someone, but you don't. Their social media account is not who they are, we all try to beef up our social media to reflect our most admirable traits, what we don't post, is all the stuff we struggle with. But when you see a servant, there is instant trust. It's too much work for a criminal. They won't clean toilets for six months in humility to do a crime, they will find an easier one to do. Servanthood is a good sifter of personalities.

In order to hire from within, you have to have a pool of people with the gifts, skills and - crucially - availability. Again, a luxury a large church might have that a small church often doesn't.

Paidiske said:

In order to hire from within, you have to have a pool of people with the gifts, skills and - crucially - availability. Again, a luxury a large church might have that a small church often doesn't.

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I didn't have previous experience teaching when I was asked to get involved. He thought of doing a home fellowship or something, I said I wanted to teach evangelism. I was doing alot of evangelism, but I was not gifted with teaching a group of people a subject. I am still not a good teacher, but God used me for awhile while no one else was able to step up. God used deborah in the old testament when there was no male available to lead. And that is how I looked at my experience serving at a large church. But you are right, someone needs to be available.

gradyll said:

I didn't have previous experience teaching when I was asked to get involved. He thought of doing a home fellowship or something, I said I wanted to teach evangelism. I was doing alot of evangelism, but I was not gifted with teaching a group of people a subject. I am still not a good teacher, but God used me for awhile while no one else was able to step up. God used deborah in the old testament when there was no male available to lead. And that is how I looked at my experience serving at a large church.

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But what you had, apparently, was the ability to learn on the job, as it were.

If - for example - my church had the funds to hire an admin person, we would need to find someone either with the skills or the ability to learn the skills, preferably a gift for administration, and - again - the availability to reliably put in that many hours a week. It's actually the last bit that's often the hardest to find.

I'm not saying that hiring from within is bad, but saying that all churches "should" do it just doesn't relate to the reality many of us are working with.

Paidiske said:

But what you had, apparently, was the ability to learn on the job, as it were.

If - for example - my church had the funds to hire an admin person, we would need to find someone either with the skills or the ability to learn the skills, preferably a gift for administration, and - again - the availability to reliably put in that many hours a week. It's actually the last bit that's often the hardest to find.

I'm not saying that hiring from within is bad, but saying that all churches "should" do it just doesn't relate to the reality many of us are working with.

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yes you have a dynamic that many large churches don't have. Large churches have the ability to put on auditions of sorts and sort out people they don't want for example in a church choir. And they can also do that when hiring. A small church must rely on the Lord even more, that God will provide someone with those gifts at the appointed time. In that way a small church has to have more faith on a daily basis. But remember that some people are crooks. If you do hire a youth pastor for example, do a background check on them, make sure they are not a sex offender. Many churches don't do that and end up hiring a pervert or worse. A large church in our area had a scandal where a youth pastor was touching young kids innapropriately, another church had a high school youth leader in his 40's sleeping with the high school girls in the the youth group. So a background check is good, but praying for the right person is the best thing you can do, ask to see their social media accounts. I know that is sort of weird but for a youth worker, you can learn alot by seeing their social media. When FBI or police to an investigation the first thing they contact is instagram, facebook, snapchat. All those places, they all have clauses in their policy that allow them to give your information to local authorites. which I personally think is a good thing. But yeah no amount of preparation can make a wrong person right. If it's not God's will we need to be sensitive enough to Him that we can hear when He says "no" and "yes."

By law we have to do background checks not only on anyone we employ, but also on a range of our volunteers. I understand it's a lot more lax in America.

Paidiske said:

By law we have to do background checks not only on anyone we employ, but also on a range of our volunteers.

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I presume you hold off on parishioners or there would be no point of church just preaching to the choir.

timothyu said:

I presume you hold off on parishioners or there would be no point of church just preaching to the choir.

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?? I need to do regular background checks on parishioners in a range of roles (wardens, parish council members, anyone doing any child-related volunteering, and so on). I also need to do a fresh police check every so often (I think it's three years off the top of my head but would need to check).

Paidiske said:

?? I need to do regular background checks on parishioners in a range of roles (wardens, parish council members, anyone doing any child-related volunteering, and so on). I also need to do a fresh police check every so often (I think it's three years off the top of my head but would need to check).

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Yes I understand the need for those in a position of authourity but what of the common sinner you are trying to reach? Will they be eventually vetted too or are they good to go as is until the resurrection?

timothyu said:

Yes I understand the need for those in a position of authourity but what of the common sinner you are trying to reach? Will they be eventually vetted too or are they good to go as is until the resurrection?

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At the moment, as long as they don't want to get involved in anything involving children, the average parishioner doesn't need any background checks.

It is a very difficult balance but at the moment the government is asking us to do more to protect children, and given our absolutely disgusting failures in that regard we can hardly complain about that.

Paidiske said:

By law we have to do background checks not only on anyone we employ, but also on a range of our volunteers. I understand it's a lot more lax in America.

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check social media too. I know that sounds intrusive, but when you get hired for the government in a top secret category they check social media, you even have to have good credit. How much more important with our kids. (it's important to see what influences a youth pastor, if they post stuff about drinking, sex etc....they may not be a good fit or role model for youth, even if they pass a backround check)