Debunking Flat Earth

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Riddle me this, my friend: On May 22nd, 1960, at 3:11 PM local time, the largest earthquake in recorded history struck near Valdivia, Chile. The seismic waves released traveled south, through Antarctica, and then up north to Australia, where they were picked up by seismometers, at exactly the time they would be expected to register using the known distance between the two points on the globe earth model. On every flat earth model that has been presented, the distance is far greater, meaning that the tremors would take much longer to arrive and be much weaker than they actually were. Can you explain this?
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,261
8,057
✟326,642.00
Faith
Atheist
YNot one piece of property, building, structure or feature has any earth curvature allowance in its measurement.
Well, no. The curve is too small to be significant for the vast majority of construction projects, but some large structures, such as the Verazzano Narrows bridge, need to make minor adjustments:

Because of the height of the towers (693 ft or 211 m) and their distance from each other (4,260 ft or 1,298 m), the curvature of the Earth's surface had to be taken into account when designing the bridge. The towers are not parallel to each other, but are 1 5⁄8 in (41.275 mm) farther apart at their tops than at their bases...
Also, some specialised engineering projects have to account for Earth's curvature, for example, LIGO (Laser Interferometer Gravitational-wave Observatory) has arms 4 km (2.5 miles) long that contain vacuum tubes for the two-way passage of high precision laser beams, so they must be as straight as possible:

Beam Tube Installation
LIGO's arms are long enough that the curvature of the Earth itself was a complicating factor when installing the vacuum tubes. It wasn’t enough for LIGO’s civil engineers to smooth a level path and assemble each arm’s tubes in a straight line. To ensure a perfectly level beam path, the Earth’s curvature (more than a vertical meter over the length of each arm) was countered by GPS-assisted earth-moving and high-precision concrete work.

Curvature of the Earth: LIGO’s arms are long enough that the curvature of the Earth was a factor in their construction. Over the 4 km length of each arm, the Earth curves away by nearly a meter! Precision concrete pouring of the path upon which the beam-tube is installed was required to counteract this curvature.

The same is true of designs for large particle colliders, such as the Large Hadron Collider at CERN - a CERN team even published a design for an ILC (International Linear Collider) that explicitly follows the curve of the Earth: STUDY OF AN ILC MAIN LINAC THAT FOLLOWS THE EARTH CURVATURE.

The proposed 80-100 km long FCC (Future Circular Collider), intended to complement the LHC, will also need to make careful allowance for the Earth's curvature: Designing a 100km collider tunnel for CERN:

To make matters more complex from a visualisation and planning perspective, the curvature of the earth has to be taken into consideration in any future design path. This means that the “flattened” satellite imagery available across the diameter of any potential alignment for the FCC has to be compensated for in the virtual modelling. This curvature (3D) versus flattening (2D) effect accounts for a differential of up to 100m across the diameter of an 80-100km ring, and the alignment is further restricted by a maximum slope of 1-1.5% across the whole circumference for the complicated cryogenic and magnet installations to work effectively.

“It gets quite complicated because if we were to use sea level as our reference point this would imply horizontal. If it were the same distance above sea level around the ring then you would not be in the same plane because the machine would be following the earth’s curvature,” said Osborne. The best way to imagine it, he explained, is to think of the FCC as an enormous fixed disc that needs to be sunk in its entirety into the earth in order for it to be in the same plane.

With the effect of the earth’s curvature having considerably greater impact upon the necessary depth considerations for the larger FCC as compared to the 27km LHC, early calculations show that for an 80km ring, and to remain within slope parameters, the shafts might have to be at an average depth of 270m with a maximum overburden along the tunnels of up to 670m. This compares to an average shaft depth of 100m for the LCC, and a largest overburden of 170m.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,261
8,057
✟326,642.00
Faith
Atheist
Trivially wrong, yet again.

"One well documented exception is the Verrazano-Narrows bridge, whose design took into account that the bridge towers are 1 5/8 inch farther apart at the top than at the bottom. In this post, I will show how to compute this value.

The calculations here are straightforward. My intent is to show that there are some structures that must take the Earth's curvature into account. There are two other examples that I know of: Stanford Linear Accelerator (Source), and Fermilab's neutrino communication experiments (Source). "

Effect of Earth's Curvature on Suspension Bridge Dimensions
Oops! Gazumped again...
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,273
6,963
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟373,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It's still hard for me to believe anyone would be so invested in something as preposterous as the concept of a flat planet Earth. What would anyone gain from such a silly and ridiculous notion? Is it just that some people are attracted to non-conformity? They do what makes them happy and the rest of the world can go to the hot place. (Like my niece, when she was in college, had 2 nose rings, an eyebrow ring, and spiky hair, half pink and half green.) Are these folks seeking a persistent adolescent thrill to be different and rebellious?
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,261
8,057
✟326,642.00
Faith
Atheist
It's still hard for me to believe anyone would be so invested in something as preposterous as the concept of a flat planet Earth. What would anyone gain from such a silly and ridiculous notion? Is it just that some people are attracted to non-conformity? They do what makes them happy and the rest of the world can go to the hot place. (Like my niece, when she was in college, had 2 nose rings, an eyebrow ring, and spiky hair, half pink and half green.) Are these folks seeking a persistent adolescent thrill to be different and rebellious?
A popular explanation for conspiracy theorists is that they like to feel they're part of an elite with 'special' knowledge, that they're too smart to be hoodwinked like the rest of the 'sheeple'.

Kind of ironic, really ;)
 
Upvote 0

fwGod

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2005
1,404
532
✟65,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Look. Jesus didn't talk about a globe. Neither did Moses. Therefore, the earth is flat. Nuf said.....
Jesus didn't talk about a flat earth. The Psalms talk about a globe, sphere.

Isaiah 40:22 God sits above the circle of the earth.
The word rendered 'circle' (חוּג chûg) denotes "a circle, sphere, or arch".

The corners of Isaiah 11 refer to the four cardinal directions.

But, if "the corners of the earth" were intended to be literal, then the earth is cubicle. But other scriptures contradict that literal reading.

Genesis 1:14 "let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens that separate the day from the night. And for seasons, days, and years."
The separation of day and night cannot be illustrated by the flat earth model. Set up a flat representation and put it on a table in a dark room. Then have a source of light shining on it. And see that the flat surface is fully lit.

But it can be illustrated by a spherical object in a dark room hanging from a wire.. then a source of light shining at it. The light shines on one side. Then just walk around to the other still dark side.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Lost4words
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,711
3,761
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟242,764.00
Faith
Atheist
Look, I really don't want to defend the biblical flat earth view. But you should be aware that the texts are at best ambiguous and do allow both interpretations... even tending towards the "flat" version.
Jesus didn't talk about a flat earth.
Jesus did't talk about a flat earth. Jesus didn't talk about a globe either. So?

The Psalms talk about a globe, sphere.

Isaiah 40:22 God sits above the circle of the earth.
The word rendered 'circle' (חוּג chûg) denotes "a circle, sphere, or arch".
Not sure what Psalm you are talking about... Isaiah isn't in the Psalms.
But don't you think it is a little preposterous to claim that "verse X talks about a globe", when you then detail that the "word rendered circle" denotes "a circle"?

The problem with the Isaiah verse is exactly that it can be used for both ideas, and without the option of asking the author which shape he meant, it is not possible to decide in either way.

The corners of Isaiah 11 refer to the four cardinal directions.
That is indeed the most likely interpretation... but doesn't offer any distinction between globe or flat. On a flat plane, there are four cardinal directions, aren't there?

But, if "the corners of the earth" were intended to be literal, then the earth is cubicle. But other scriptures contradict that literal reading.
No. If you wanted to apply this verse literally to a three dimensional shape, the earth would be a tetrahedron, because the verse clearly mentiones the four corners of the earth. A cube would have eight corners. Just saying. ;)

Genesis 1:14 "let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens that separate the day from the night. And for seasons, days, and years."
The separation of day and night cannot be illustrated by the flat earth model. Set up a flat representation and put it on a table in a dark room. Then have a source of light shining on it. And see that the flat surface is fully lit.

But it can be illustrated by a spherical object in a dark room hanging from a wire.. then a source of light shining at it. The light shines on one side. Then just walk around to the other still dark side.
Flat Earthers have presented various, more or less valid, propositions for a spread of light over a flat earth. The rationality of these ideas is debatable... but then in turn you also have to consider that the Genesis story has "day and night" existing before the creation of the "lights".

.

So my point is just that: you cannot derive a concise cosmological model of the earth or the solar system from the bible alone. You can find expressions in it that may be used to support both flat and globe views.
But none of these expressions are meant to explain, teach or support either model. At best, they might give us a hint at the way the authors saw the world. And in that case, the option that they did indeed hold to a planar, geocentric view is more likely than a globular, heliocentric.

That's nothing bad. It only becomes a problem when you assume that the Bible must, always and in every case, be "true".
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,230
5,625
Erewhon
Visit site
✟932,033.00
Faith
Atheist
Scripture is vastly misinterpreted and misunderstood
The only thing that one can conclude, given an omniscient author, is that God meant for scripture to be misinterpreted and misunderstood.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟268,799.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
When painting, and you mix blue and yellow pigments together, you will achieve Green.

And when attempting to make sense scripture one always seems to come up with an interpretation that matches ones own pre-existing views.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lost4words
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,580
15,738
Colorado
✟432,680.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
It's still hard for me to believe anyone would be so invested in something as preposterous as the concept of a flat planet Earth.....
I dont think they are. "Flat earth" is just one of the great pre internet proto trolling exercises that got new 'legs' in the internet age.
 
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,273
6,963
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟373,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I dont think they are. "Flat earth" is just one of the great pre internet proto trolling exercises that got new 'legs' in the internet age.

I agree. It's just having some fun with farce. Kinda like furries or the Doo Dah Parade.
 
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,711
3,761
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟242,764.00
Faith
Atheist
I dont think they are. "Flat earth" is just one of the great pre internet proto trolling exercises that got new 'legs' in the internet age.
For some, even many... perhaps.
But for others... no, I think they are quite sincere. But the internet plays a major role.

There have always been people with a dire lack of understanding, but an overabundance of imagination. Before the advent of the internet, they didn't have a lot of options to spread their ideas.
But now, when all it takes to have the whole would see how much of a genius you are is a cell phone... every crackpot can post their nonsense all over the net.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,261
8,057
✟326,642.00
Faith
Atheist
The only thing that one can conclude, given an omniscient author, is that God meant for scripture to be misinterpreted and misunderstood.
To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke - "Two possibilities exist. Either He meant for scripture to be misinterpreted and misunderstood, or He did not. Both are equally damning".
 
Upvote 0

bhillyard

Newbie
Mar 1, 2010
122
65
U.K.
✟283,779.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
I went looking for the correction for a spherical earth in the British Ordnance Survey grid but found this instead:
US road grid corrections because of the Earth’s curvature.
Interesting - especially the bit at the end from the author's father, a farmer, about the sizes of his pieces of land. No farmer I know would allow anyone to get away with getting his land boundaries wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke - "Two possibilities exist. Either He meant for scripture to be misinterpreted and misunderstood, or He did not. Both are equally damning".

I'm always baffled by these basic notions about the bible from intelligent people. 'It's this - or it's that' or 'no, it's this other thing'. Few people seem to actually read it to find out what is actually true about it. It's not even difficult.
 
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,711
3,761
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟242,764.00
Faith
Atheist
I'm always baffled by these basic notions about the bible from intelligent people. 'It's this - or it's that' or 'no, it's this other thing'. Few people seem to actually read it to find out what is actually true about it. It's not even difficult.
In the case of the quote, it offers two complementary options. There is no room for a further one.

If you aren't going for Zen, your objection is invalid here.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the case of the quote, it offers two complementary options. There is no room for a further one.

If you aren't going for Zen, your objection is invalid here.

That notion is so dumb, I’m not sure if it’s worth trying to explain why.
 
Upvote 0