Why does hell exist?
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Hey F.L. may I take this opportunity to plug a new book, a great easy read, with a foreword by Thomas Talbot. By Santo Calarco, the brother who's taught me the most about narrative interpretation. You can pick up an e-copy for under a dollar (I suggest a donation to his ministry): Restoration Life Ministries - Restoration Life Ministries | Santo Calarco
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I think you should get yourself some new teachers. The word translated "signify" occurs 6 times in the NT. Here are the other 5. It never means metaphor.
John 12:33
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.
John 18:32
(32) That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
Acts of the apostles 11:28
(28) And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Acts of the apostles 25:27
(27) For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.
John 18:32
(32) That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
Acts of the apostles 11:28
(28) And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Acts of the apostles 25:27
(27) For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.
"If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense." Some folks try to make almost everything figurative to make scripture support their assumptions/presuppositions e.g. see "signify," above.
Indeed the mind boggles. "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
Pie in the sky by and by fantasy not directly supported by scripture. Anyone can make scripture say almost anything they want it to by quoting bits an pieces of scripture out-of-context, as you have done here.
Here is an example, in Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 the Bible says "there is no God."
"If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
Nice pipe dream anybody can live like the devil but in the end God will save everybody, no matter what. I prefer reading what scripture actually says.
Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:16-17
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Do you think God forgot what He said in vs. 11 when He inspired John to write vs. 17?Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:16-17
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Please note vs. 17 is spoken to the churches not the dogs, sorcerers etc. outside the city.
"If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
The people cannot make themselves clean.
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Vs. 17 which you quoted part of was written to the churches not the dogs , sorcerers etc. outside the city.And FYI I am quoting the scripture literally.
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drich0150
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Hell exists because not everyone wants to serve God in heaven.
Hell is forever. Satan will be punished there for ever. Satan is not the God of hell. It would seem in the church we picked up some greek mythology and made it apart of the bible. But if you read the bible. Hell is not satan's realm. Hell is a for ever punishment for a forever being like Him.
Those of us who do not wish to serve God will in turn be sent to hell. So how can a loving God send someone to hell? If you hated God and you hated his people what would be worse than to live forever as a slave to the God you hate and his people.
I personally would rather go to muslim hell than serve a god like allah. that thing is a monster. I do not want to serve a monster.
For some the God of the bible is the same kind of monster and will not want to be a slave to this monster.
So we are sent to forever hell, but according to the bible and Jesus we will be consumed by the fire. like if you put a stick in a regular fire, yes it will burn a while but soon the fire will eat up the stick.
like wise the fires of hel burn in a different way to consume souls/people who do not want to be with God.
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If God wants a fire to burn and not consume what is in it, the fire will not burn up what is in it.. See e.g. Exodus 3:2 and Daniel 3:26-27.
…..Lots of folks hold the false belief that the concept of hell was taken from the Greeks. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
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I can't believe you are totally missing the point Drich. It is very obvious my question is why God made an awful place where most people who ever lived suffer the excruciating pain of being in a fire forever. What is so hard to understand about the context here?
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Au Contraire:
"When I'm lifted up": hardly a direct plain way of saying 'I'm a gonna get crucified'.
'Signifying by the spirit' - we're not told how Agabus did this, but it's obvious that he didn't say 'There will be a great dearth throughout the world'.
Strongs says - 4591 sémainó: to give a sign, from sema - sign, mark. But that's not the whole story, look at the next definition, no.4592, same word:
Strong's Greek: 4592. σημεῖον (sémeion) -- a sign
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom (1 Cor 1:22).
Plus a whole lot of others. It's about signs, as in 'Lord give me a sign this guy's worth it!'
Look up the discipline of semiology, study of signs.
How is it a plain sense to read Rev 20:14 that 2 of 4 horsemen were thrown into a lake of fire, presumably leaving the balance of 2 other horsemen and 2 riderless horses drifting across the high plains. Sorry, but that's a spastic interpretation.
Everyone's already inside the city except for the impure. Verse 22:14 makes it clear that the impure can come in if they wash their robes (do his commandments in the KJV). Hence the word "For" at the start of 22:15, connecting the right to enter with the folks to whom it is conditionally granted.
22:14!!!
Yes, but it doesn't help your argument, "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (22:17). These are not words of limitation, it is an open invitation. It's the definite article 'the one' who wishes. The vile can remain vile 'LET HIM' in 22:11, not 'He must' remain. There's still choice, free will, and the inducement of the gift of life.
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The equivalent of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"
Wrong again. But it certainly meant death.
Great dearth that came to pass is certainly not a metaphor.
Don't need to I have sufficient resources in my library. 4591 and 4952 different numbers means different words.
Point of information Strong's has been shown to have about 15,000 errors or ommissions.
G4591 σημαίνω sēmainō
From σῆμα sēma (a mark; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.
G4592 σημεῖον sēmeion
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally: - miracle, sign, token, wonder.
What is this? No metaphor here.From σῆμα sēma (a mark; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.
G4592 σημεῖον sēmeion
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally: - miracle, sign, token, wonder.
Spastic reply,. It is only one horseman, the entity "hell" is not one of the 4 horsemen. No person knows for certain what does/does not happen in the hereafter.
The horse men make war against God's people. What kind of metaphor is that?
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I guess God got amnesia when He inspired vs. 17 He must have forgot what He inspired in vs. 11 He didn't say everyone was going to wash their robes etc. and be saved. God said "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.": Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Nonsense God already rejected the unjust and filthy in vs. 11 which you are still ignoring.
If there is free will for the unjust and and filthy, vs. 11, then the righteous, vs. 11 also have free will and can refuse to enter.
Why would God say "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:" if He was going to invite the "dogs, and sorcerers etc," vs. 15, into the city a few seconds later. Nonsensical.
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Ok Der Alter, have it your own way. I feel like Gandalf in the scene in Lord of the RIngs battling the dragon all the way down through the 18th layer of hell.
I'm convinced in the spiritual interpretation which yields grace and life. You're most welcome to keep your carnal chili megadeath version.
Peace and blessings, out.
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"In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says the LORD your Redeemer."
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You'll have to use film references that I am familiar with. LOTR is not my cup of tea.
As I have said repeatedly anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting verses out-of-context and using the SPAM-Fig copout; spiritual, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative.
"If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] VII. On Modesty Chap. XIX.
In short, this Apocalypse, in its later passages, has assigned “the infamous and fornicators,” as well as “the cowardly, and unbelieving, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters,” who have been guilty of any such crime while professing the faith, to “the lake of fire,” (Rev_21:8) without any conditional condemnation. For it will not appear to savour of (a bearing upon) heathens, since it has (just) pronounced with regard to believers, “They who shall have conquered shall have this inheritance; and I will be to them a God, and they to me for sons;” and so has subjoined: “But to the cowardly, and unbelieving, and infamous, and fornicators, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, (shall be) a share in the lake of fire and sulphur, which (lake) is the second death.” Thus, too, again “Blessed they who act according to the precepts, that they may have power over the tree of life and over the gates, for entering into the holy city. Dogs, sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, out!”
In short, this Apocalypse, in its later passages, has assigned “the infamous and fornicators,” as well as “the cowardly, and unbelieving, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters,” who have been guilty of any such crime while professing the faith, to “the lake of fire,” (Rev_21:8) without any conditional condemnation. For it will not appear to savour of (a bearing upon) heathens, since it has (just) pronounced with regard to believers, “They who shall have conquered shall have this inheritance; and I will be to them a God, and they to me for sons;” and so has subjoined: “But to the cowardly, and unbelieving, and infamous, and fornicators, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, (shall be) a share in the lake of fire and sulphur, which (lake) is the second death.” Thus, too, again “Blessed they who act according to the precepts, that they may have power over the tree of life and over the gates, for entering into the holy city. Dogs, sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, out!”
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Tyler52
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"So you believe God tortured and killed His own son so He could forgive mankind? Sorry, wrong deity. That would be an evil psycho god, say like satan. Tell me, if I kill your mum, and my friend does the time for it, would you feel justice was served?"
I'm done with you, you have blasphemed God! If Christ wasn't a sin sacrifice then he died for nothing and we are all under the law! You preach a false gospel!
I'm done with you, you have blasphemed God! If Christ wasn't a sin sacrifice then he died for nothing and we are all under the law! You preach a false gospel!
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Only in your mind. God is not subject to some higher law that requires Him to kill His son in order to spare mankind. Or, for that matter, to roast anyone who doesn't love Him for it.
As the suffering servant Christ bore the sins of Israel. He is the new Moses leading an exodus from the prison of sin, the way of grace and truth. And he is the Paschal Lamb sacrificed to mark that freedom from the power of death... plus a whole lot more. But one thing he ain't, is a vicious malignant torturing psycho-killer.
If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; For so you will heap coals of fire on his head, And the LORD will reward you. (Pro 25:21-22)
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Vin plan=
God hates the wicked - is angry with them every day. His wrath abides upon them.
Our Father=
"In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says the LORD your Redeemer."
God hates the wicked - is angry with them every day. His wrath abides upon them.
Our Father=
"In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says the LORD your Redeemer."
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