Our God The Consuming Fire

FineLinen said:

My friend the work of God is not based on chance. His plan in the Son of His love is not a giant heavenly gambling establishment of chance in any shape or form!

None of us are o.k. We must be fixed, and fixed we shall surely be!

I am come that you might have life and life more abundantly.

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Then you are just confirming what I just said. If the whole game is rigged, nothing we say or do matters. Shrug. Why pray for people? Why try and reach them with truth? If the whole thing is predetermined, might as well forget all that.

Since I mentioned the Long Version in my post #320, I can save you all a lot of time and effort by posting my conclusions after two years of research:

A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS



1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”



2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.



3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.



4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.



5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.



6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.



7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.



8. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.



9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the center or marginal reference column.



10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.



11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.



12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.



13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.



14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.



15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.



16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.



17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.



18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.



19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.



20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.



21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these four refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.



22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.



23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

FineLinen said:

There is no truth of our Heavenly Father that is uncomfortable for me, NONE. What is uncomfortable to me is the concepts of those who should know better of our gracious Father!

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And...another obvious deflection of my points.

Lazarus Short said:

Warnings about "Hell" -

In the OT, "Sheol" was translated as "Hell" about half the time. I took a close look and realized that when "Sheol" was tied to the real world by the context, it was rendered as "grave" or "pit." OTOH, if context allowed "Sheol" was rendered as "Hell." The KJV is not entirely consistent, however.

In the NT, "Hades" is translated as "Hell" about 90% of the time, and "Hades" is the best Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Sheol." "Hades," however, brings in a whole load of pagan mythology. Since the Greeks came down from areas to the north of what we now call Greece, it is interesting to compare Hades with other old forms of the word from various areas of old/pagan Europe:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Middle Dutch – helle

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic - halja

The original meaning of all these versions is "to hide, to cover," which would include "grave." Not so long ago, and maybe some people still do this, if you lacked a cellar or root cellar, you might keep, say, potatoes by "helling" them. You would dig down to below the local frost line, lay down a layer of straw, then a layer of spuds, another layer of straw, and then the dirt you had dug out. My father told me about the practice, and the inference is obvious.

Moving on in the NT, we come across "Gehenna," changed to "Hell," 100% of the time...but wait - Gehenna is a place in the real world. You can even visit the place today! I see no need to repurpose Jesus' warnings about ending up in Gehenna as ECT. If you strip away the bad theology and bad translation, Jesus was merely telling His hearers that it was better to enter life (be born) blind, crippled, whatever, than to have all your limbs and faculties, yet live so badly that you were executed for crimes and denied a decent burial, your carcass then being tossed in Gehenna for the fires (natural fires) and worms. Anything else is a Damnationist overreach.

Lastly, we get to "Tartarus," used once, and again, a pagan, mythology-loaded Greek word. Of course the KJV and other versions render it as "Hell," but that simply muddies what was meant. I don't care to rest any theology on the single use of a word, so I'll say no more about that.

Two years of digging in the KJV, the OED, Strong's and Young's Concordances, and various historical sources have convinced me that the whole Hell theology is the false one. Note that during that two years, I avoided Universalist books, so as not to be biased. After all that, I suppose someone is going to tell me I cherry-picked...but no, I looked at EVERY book, chapter and verse in the KJV, and a full treatment of my findings runs to 200+ pages. Do you really want the long version?

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None of your beliefs or word study have anything to do with what Jesus taught, but only attempts to downplay the word "hell " or eternal torment" or to morph it into something that Jesus didn't say.
The gospel of Jesus was given to humanity as a way to receive forgiveness for their sins and be saved from God's judgment and wrath, THAT was the good news.

Pedra said: ↑
None of your beliefs or word study have anything to do with what Jesus taught, but only attempts to downplay the word "hell " or eternal torment" or to morph it into something that Jesus didn't say.
The gospel of Jesus was given to humanity as a way to receive forgiveness for their sins and be saved from God's judgment and wrath, THAT was the good news.

Click to expand...

Lazarus Short said:

Communication Failure.

Good News that includes judgment, condemnation, damnation, wrath and ECT, as per Jonathan Edwards, is no good news at all. If most of humanity, living and dead, is going to Hell, where is the Good News???

You will hold onto your Damnationist views with a white-knuckle grip, but you know something? I was once a Damnationist, and rejected Universalism a time or two before I accepted it.

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Pedra said:

It is based upon free-will , they chose themselves.
You are writing your own beliefs into the Bible.
I didn't make up my own theories or beliefs about what is in the scripture --you are doing that.
Cease with your insulting name-calling.

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Lazarus Short said: ↑
Warnings about "Hell" -
In the OT, "Sheol" was translated as "Hell" about half the time. I took a close look and realized that when "Sheol" was tied to the real world by the context, it was rendered as "grave" or "pit." OTOH, if context allowed "Sheol" was rendered as "Hell." The KJV is not entirely consistent, however.

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Lazarus Short said:

Since I mentioned the Long Version in my post #320, I can save you all a lot of time and effort by posting my conclusions after two years of research:
A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS
1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

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I am withdrawing from this thread and will no longer respond to posts after this post..........
I recommend these other threads concerning "gehenna" and "lake of fire"..........
God bless................

Gehenna and the Lake of Fire in NT

Matthew 23:
1 Then Jesus spake to the multitudes, and to his disciples, 2saying, ‘On the seat of Moses sat down the scribes and the Pharisees;
15 ‘Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
because ye go round the sea and the dry to make one proselyte,
and whenever it may happen — ye are making him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
33 "Serpents! brood of vipers!
how ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna <1067>

Is gehenna and lake of fire the same thing?
Edit

1. *
   Yes
   4 vote(s)
   66.7%
2. No
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
3. They appear to be
   2 vote(s)
   33.3%
4. I don't know
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
5. Other
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

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And this other thread on the "LAKE OF FIRE"

Lake of Fire

Hello mkgal.

Let's look at the word "lake" used in the Bible.........

The Greek word for LAKE<3041>, as shown in Revelation, is used in 2 chapters of Luke [5 verses] and 3 chapters of Revelation [5 verses]
This site shows the word used in various Bible versions,
=======================
................

Pedra said:

None of your beliefs or word study have anything to do with what Jesus taught, but only attempts to downplay the word "hell " or eternal torment" or to morph it into something that Jesus didn't say.
The gospel of Jesus was given to humanity as a way to receive forgiveness for their sins and be saved from God's judgment and wrath, THAT was the good news.

Click to expand...

Communication Failure.

Good News that includes judgment, condemnation, damnation, wrath and ECT, as per Jonathan Edwards, is no good news at all. If most of humanity, living and dead, is going to Hell, where is the Good News???

You will hold onto your Damnationist views with a white-knuckle grip, but you know something? I was once a Damnationist, and rejected Universalism a time or two before I accepted it.

Lazarus Short said:

Communication Failure.

Good News that includes judgment, condemnation, damnation, wrath and ECT, as per Jonathan Edwards, is no good news at all. If most of humanity, living and dead, is going to Hell, where is the Good News???

You will hold onto your Damnationist views with a white-knuckle grip, but you know something? I was once a Damnationist, and rejected Universalism a time or two before I accepted it.

Click to expand...

It is based upon free-will , they chose themselves.
You are writing your own beliefs into the Bible.
I didn't make up my own theories or beliefs about what is in the scripture --you are doing that.
Cease with your insulting name-calling.

Pedra said:

It is based upon free-will , they chose themselves.
You are writing your own beliefs into the Bible.
I didn't make up my own theories or beliefs about what is in the scripture --you are doing that.
Cease with your insulting name-calling.

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My dear Pedra, in my Condensation of Conclusions, I provided multiple references from the Bible in support of each point. Did you look at them?

Your theology limits God's Sovereign Will...mine does not.

My research points toward Hell theology as being written into the Bible, but you don't seem able to see that.

No, you did not make up your own theories, just accepted what you were given, or so it seems to me. I could be wrong...

If I use the term "Damnationism," I am pointing to a system of belief, and it is not meant as an insult. I used to be a Damnationist, as I said.

But tell me something...If you see a possibility that Hell and the damnation of most of humanity to ECT is NOT true, why do you not be a good Berean and check it out?

Lazarus Short said:

My dear Pedra, in my Condensation of Conclusions, I provided multiple references from the Bible in support of each point. Did you look at them?

Your theology limits God's Sovereign Will...mine does not.

My research points toward Hell theology as being written into the Bible, but you don't seem able to see that.

No, you did not make up your own theories, just accepted what you were given, or so it seems to me. I could be wrong...

If I use the term "Damnationism," I am pointing to a system of belief, and it is not meant as an insult. I used to be a Damnationist, as I said.

But tell me something...If you see a possibility that Hell and the damnation of most of humanity to ECT is NOT true, why do you not be a good Berean and check it out?

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I'm done here, kicking the dust off my sandals.

Pedra said:

I'm done here, kicking the dust off my sandals.

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Me too...........

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

5522. choos from the base of 5494;
a heap (as poured out), i.e. rubbish; loose dirt:--dust.
G5522 χοῦς (chous) occurs 2 times in 2 verses

Mark 6:11
And who soever should not be receiving ye, nor should be hearing ye, going out thence, shake off! the dust<coun <5522> underneath thine feet into a testimony to-them.
Amen I am saying unto ye, it shall be more tolerable to-Sodom or/and Gomorrah in a day of judgment than that City". [#5522 used in Revelation 18:19]

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
Jerusalem 70AD

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust<coun<5522> upon their heads and cried-out lamenting and mourning saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, in which are-rich all those having ships in the sea out of her preciousness!
That in one hour She was desolated.
===================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:6 “Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

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While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children..................
The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ;

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Ezekiel 20:38 “I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Hosea 5:2
The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.

=========================
And as a final note before I depart this thread:

Eph 4:14
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Jas 1:6
But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

I've said about as much as I care to say in this thread, as well.

Lazarus Short said:

Since I mentioned the Long Version in my post #320, I can save you all a lot of time and effort by posting my conclusions after two years of research:

Click to expand...

There are many who have studied the doctrine of hell in just as much - if not more - detail and over longer periods of time than you have who have come to the opposite conclusion concerning eternal conscious torment in hell. Their studies have confirmed that indeed the doctrine of ECT is entirely biblical, taught frequently by Christ in the Gospels, and by those apostles whose writings constitute the New Testament. How is it they have come to such different conclusions? Are you smarter than they? More spiritual? Better versed in all the various language and cultural factors pertinent to the matter? I doubt it. Very much.

It is not determinative of the correctness of your perspective how much time you've spent pouring over this issue. Time and effort aren't necessarily valid arguments in favour of your point of view. A man whose beginning premises/presuppostions are faulty will arrive at correspondingly faulty conclusions, no matter how hard or long his study.

Lazarus Short said:

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

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There is no mention of galaxies, or tectonic plates, or black holes, or quantum singularities, either. Are all of these things, therefore, not of God's creation? There are, in fact, a great many things never mentioned in the Creation account that exist nonetheless. Ought we to discount them as fiction? That would be a distinctly irrational thing to do, yet, this is exactly what you're trying to do with the biblical doctrine of Hell. Your thinking above is a giant non sequitur. It doesn't follow that because Hell is not mentioned in the Creation account that it therefore does not exist any more than Jupiter does not exist because it was not mentioned in the Creation account.

Lazarus Short said:

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

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You're assuming that Hell does not fall under the definition of "good." But from whose definition of "good" are you working? Is the prison that confines criminals considered to be a good thing by the criminals? No. Does this mean prisons are evil, that they are not good? No. Is the brain surgeon who must drill holes in the heads of his patients, and cut out portions of their skulls, and slice away pieces of their brain tissue, doing evil? Did the surgeon not do good by his surgical efforts? Yes, he did good, though he shed the blood of his patients and badly damaged their heads. Was it evil for the Allies to violently assault the German troops, killing many of them, in order to halt their domination of Europe and their wholesale slaughter of Jews, gypsies, and the disabled? Did they not do good in protecting the World from Hitler's genocidal tyranny? Yes, they did good, though many died cruelly in doing so. In the same way, God's holy, just, perfect wrath, meted out in hell upon the unrepentant, unbelieving wicked, who have spurned His love and grace, despised the Saviour, and lived in life-long rebellion to Him, sinning continually 'til their decease, is also good.

Lazarus Short said:

3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

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The Creation is not a hierarchy in the sense in which you seem to mean it here, but a monarchy. God rules supreme over all, the undisputed Sovereign of Everything. No, He is not fighting with Satan as though with an equal who might overcome Him. Satan is a created being, just as we are, and as such just as contingent, just as dependent upon God, for his existence. Hell, then, is not some base of operations for the devil, his kingdom from which he rules, symbolic of the devil's vying with God for human souls. Hell, the "Lake of Fire," is the place God has made for the devil's eventual eternal punishment and for the punishment of those who die enemies of God, unrepentant and unbelieving. But, regardless, one does not have to hold to the dualistic view you describe above in order to hold to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in Hell.

Lazarus Short said:

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

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Are you equivocating with terms, here? What "evil" do you mean? Natural "evil"? That is, the destruction caused by natural events like storms, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes and such? These are not "evil" in a moral sense and ought not to be lumped in with such evil. God is certainly the Ultimate Cause of natural evil, but He is not the Ultimate Cause of moral evil. If God is the Source of moral evil, then He is not good. And if God is not good - and maximally so - then He is not God. To assert as you have, then, that God "made evil" is to make God something other than God.

Is the wood carver who fashions a knife to carve wood, making the blade of the knife long, and hard and sharp, responsible for the use of the knife, stolen by a thief, to kill someone? No. He intended the knife to be used to carve wood, not kill people. In making a knife to carve wood, He could not avoid making a knife that could also kill a person, but His purpose for the knife was never for it to be put to such use. How, then, is he responsible for the evil way the knife has been used? Well, he isn't. The thief is responsible, not the wood carver.

In the same way, God made us with the capacity to love Him. This necessitated giving us free will; for love cannot be coerced, it must be freely given. But giving us the freedom to choose to love Him necessitates giving us the freedom not to love Him. And when we choose not to love Him, we use the "carving knife" of our free agency to an evil purpose. But that is entirely on us, not God. He is no more responsible for our evil conduct than the wood carver is responsible for the evil way his carving knife was used.

Even though I hold firmly to the ECT doctrine, I have never thought the devil was the source of moral evil. That is our "claim to fame" - or infamy, actually.

Lazarus Short said:

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

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Not sure what this has to do with whether or not Hell is an actual place of eternal punishment awaiting the unrepentant, unbelieving wicked...

Lazarus Short said:

7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

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"Simple death" is the most severe punishment? I think not. Those who are tortured, or dying of some excruciating illness, long for "simple death." Death is, for some, a blessed relief, a welcome end to pain and suffering. So, no, the "most severe" punishment is not "simple death." Certainly, God knows this, which is why, in part, Hell awaits the unrepentant, unbelieving wicked after death.

Imagine Hitler, or Stalin, or Jeffrey Dahmer, thinking, "No matter what I do, no matter how evil I am, my end is exactly the same as the very best, most saintly, person who ever lived. The worst God will do to me is kill me - the very same thing He does to even the most Christ-loving person." Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? That death is supposed to be the worst possible punishment for Hitler, but something else for Mother Theresa. This seems grossly irrational to me, actually (as well as unbiblical).

Whatever the case with the Law of Moses, the preaching of Christ warned of ECT quite a lot. I've posted some of his warnings about Hell and the wrath of God in earlier posts.

Lazarus Short said:

9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the center or marginal reference column.

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Now you are grossly equivocating with terms. "Hell" (at least, in the KJV) may mean "Sheol," "Hades," "Gehenna," or even "Tartarus." However, only "Sheol" (Heb.) or "Hades" (Gk.) refer to the grave, or "place of the dead," and only "Tarturus" refers to the pit or abyss (which is solely for holding fallen angels). References to Hell using the word "Gehenna," however, do not refer merely to the grave but to a place of torment:

Mark 9:43
43 It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go to Gehenna into the fire that shall never be quenched.

Luke 12:5
Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna.

Lazarus Short said:

11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

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Nope. The Bible is pretty clear, I think, about the immortality of the human soul:

Revelation 6:9-10
Luke 20:37-38
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
Luke 16:22-23
2 Corinthians 5:6-8

And so on.

Lazarus Short said:

12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

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Faulty reasoning. See my response to conclusion #2.

Lazarus Short said:

13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

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Hell (Gehenna, the Lake of Fire) is not intended as a place to work off one's debt to God. Hell is for the unrepentant and unbelieving enemies of God, not merely for those who find themselves in debt to Him. It is not a place of remediation but of punishment, where the perfect, holy, just wrath of God is meted out upon the wicked. What, then, does the Year of Jubilee have to do with it? Nothing, as far as I can see.

Also, the Year of Jubilee is quite unrelated to what Paul explains in Romans 6. In Romans 6, Paul is speaking of a born-again believer's spiritual union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. He is describing the born-again believer's identity in Christ which has nothing to do with the system of indentured servitude and debt-repayment of OT Israel.

Lazarus Short said:

14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

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God's Spirit is not within each of us. His Spirit indwells only the spiritually regenerate, born-again person. God has imparted the "breath" of life to each of us, but this does not make us divine in any way. A painting has the brush strokes of the artist upon it, giving the painting it's form, and color, and texture, but no one would say that the painting, therefore, is the artist, or that to damage the painting would be to harm or diminish the artist who painted it. If one burns an artist's painting, does a blister form on the artist, does he collapse into ash? No. In the same way, God is not what He has made. His stamp is upon us, but not His divine essence. And so, when God punishes His creatures in Hell for their wickedness, He does not harm or diminish Himself.

Lazarus Short said:

15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

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Where does Scripture ever say that Hell is both hot and cold? It doesn't. Scripture also never says that Hell is "bright with fire." Can a massive bonfire make the night into day? No. Gigantic though it might be, night remains. Is this confusion? Is it strange to say one can have the light of a fire in the middle of the darkness of night? No. Both can be at once in the same place. Where, then, the confusion?

Who cares what Mary K. Baxter says? Who made her an authority on hell? What but her own say-so authorizes her to add to or adjust the Bible's descriptions of Hell?

To go to Hell, one's physical body must have died, yes, but one's immortal soul is what passes on either to "Abraham's Bosom (aka paradise) or to the fiery torments suffered by the Rich Man in Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. What is confusing about this? Scripture clearly indicates a spiritual existence following the decease of one's material form. See above.

Who cares about the fantasies of Dante? It is the word of God that matters. And it clearly describes and warns of eternal conscious torment in Hell. (See my earlier posts.)

Lazarus Short said:

16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

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Nope. Your first Scripture reference denies your claim here:

Psalms 1:5-6
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.

We hear echoes of the Psalmist's words in Christ's own:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 25:41-46

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I don't have time to go through the remainder of your points but I think it's pretty clear from what I have responded to here that your conclusions are all quite awry, both scripturally and logically.

Pedra said: ↑
I'm done here, kicking the dust off my sandals.

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Me too...........
Mark 6:11And who soever should not be receiving ye, nor should be hearing ye, going out thence, shake off! the dust<coun <5522> underneath thine feet into a testimony to-them.
Amen I am saying unto ye, it shall be more tolerable to-Sodom or/and Gomorrah in a day of judgment

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Lazarus Short said:

I've said about as much as I care to say in this thread, as well.

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No sense in beating a dead horse......

aiki said:

taught frequently by Christ in the Gospels

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Jesus was teaching about the impending judgement that was going to come upon ancient Jerusalem (back in the first century) - He wasn't speaking of "where you all are going after you die". His focus was on their life then.....not what happens after they die. "Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

In case you're interested, I just started a new thread with that as a topic (and I don't wish to derail Fine Linen's thread here).

Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

People in this thread may wish to brush up on the SOP rules and what is considered "goading" and "flaming". How we rate posts is a part of that (choosing "like"...."agree"...."informative"....etc).

mkgal1 said:

Jesus was teaching about the impending judgement that was going to come upon ancient Jerusalem (back in the first century) -
In case you're interested, I just started a new thread with that as a topic (and I don't wish to derail Fine Linen's thread here).
Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

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On my way!.........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
Jerusalem 70AD

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust<coun<5522> upon their heads and cried-out lamenting and mourning saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, in which are-rich all those having ships in the sea out of her preciousness!
That in one hour She was desolated.
===================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children..................
The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength.
At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ;

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal
At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes.

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and they shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
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Ezekiel 20:38 “I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Hosea 5:2
The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.
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BEST VIEWED FULL SCREEN

Hebrews 6:4.....Hebrews 6:6

impossible - if they shall fall away -to renew them again -unto
repentance

Hebrews 6:8
cursing - whose end it
to be burned
/Matthew 25:41

Then verse 9 switches to referring to another group of people.

But, beloved...better things of you...

Hebrews 6:9