Are there dispensationalists who believe Paul's gospel is the same as the one preached in Matt-John?

Guojing

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I have met people who call themselves dispensationalists but they insist that Paul's gospel is exactly the same message as what was preached by the 12, when Jesus was in the flesh.

May I check with the rest of you whether such a claim is possible? I have always thought one of the key distinguishing feature of a dispy is being Pauline, and recognizing the distinction between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace.

But are there more types of dispy than that?
 

thomas15

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I attended a local church for a while years back. This particular assembly had as their statement of faith all of the items that one would expect from a pre-mil, pre-trib dispensationalist assembly. All of the standard doctrinal points with one addition, they use only 1 particular translation of the Bible in the English language.

It is a good assembly and I like going there. Great preaching of the Word and there is a real burden for the lost. This is a minor criticism but the use of 1 particular English translation by these folks really dominates their thinking as one of the staff members, knowing that I use some of the modern translations in my personal Bible study, laughed at me when I told him that I consider myself a dispensationalist.

My point here is that some fine Christians, born again and Biblically literate sometimes take small points of doctrine and make it an acid test for the faith. This isn't just dispensationalists as I have a friend that is reformed covenant theology pastor and he and his denomination do the same thing with respect to the 5 points of Calvinism. All 5 or nothing.

Not sure this is helpful to the OP but human nature being what it is we all like to win define the rules and win the game.
 
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Danoh

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I have met people who call themselves dispensationalists but they insist that Paul's gospel is exactly the same message as what was preached by the 12, when Jesus was in the flesh.

May I check with the rest of you whether such a claim is possible? I have always thought one of the key distinguishing feature of a dispy is being Pauline, and recognizing the distinction between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace.

But are there more types of dispy than that?

As with any school of thought in general, so within Christianity in particular - one is bound to run across different understandings within a same school.

As with Reformed and it's various offshoots, Dispensationalism is no different.

Most who hold to Dispensationalism hold an Acts 2 Dispensationalism, also known as Traditional or Classic Dispensationalism.

Such hold that Peter and Paul preached the same gospel.

This is because Acts 2 Dispensationalism never fully broke from the practice of mixing as one and the same various of those things that differ between Israel and the Body.

Then there is Acts 9 Dispensationalism aka Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - we hold that Peter and Paul did not preach the same gospel.

Peter and the Eleven had preached Israel's gospel - that Jesus Christ had been Israel's promised Messiah and King. This belief along with obeying Moses is all that is required in Matthew thru Early Acts - both before and after Christ's Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

In contrast, Paul preached - among the Gentiles - that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification.

Paul refers to this as "But now the righteousness of God without the law is made manifest..." for this began to be preached after God temporarily turned from His Prophesied plan and purpose for Israel AS A NATION.

Then you have Acts 28 Dispensationalism, which holds that Peter and Paul had preached a same gospel but only until Acts 28, when, per Acts 28 Dispensationalism, God temporarily turned from Israel and began the Body of Christ, with its' own gospel through Paul.

Mid-Acts is itself now divided between the above Mid-Acts Dispensationalism and another Mid-Acts that holds Paul had preached three gospels - two in Acts, one after.

Their views are clearly a mix or "hybrid" of Acts 9 and Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

Hope that helps...

2 Tim. 2:15-18.
 
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Dan Perez

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As with any school of thought in general, so within Christianity in particular - one is bound to run across different understandings within a same school.

As with Reformed and it's various offshoots, Dispensationalism is no different.

Most who hold to Dispensationalism hold an Acts 2 Dispensationalism, also known as Traditional or Classic Dispensationalism.

Such hold that Peter and Paul preached the same gospel.

This is because Acts 2 Dispensationalism never fully broke from the practice of mixing as one and the same various of those things that differ between Israel and the Body.

Then there is Acts 9 Dispensationalism aka Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - we hold that Peter and Paul did not preach the same gospel.

Peter and the Eleven had preached Israel's gospel - that Jesus Christ had been Israel's promised Messiah and King. This belief along with obeying Moses is all that is required in Matthew thru Early Acts - both before and after Christ's Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

In contrast, Paul preached - among the Gentiles - that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification.

Paul refers to this as "But now the righteousness of God without the law is made manifest..." for this began to be preached after God temporarily turned from His Prophesied plan and purpose for Israel AS A NATION.

Then you have Acts 28 Dispensationalism, which holds that Peter and Paul had preached a same gospel but only until Acts 28, when, per Acts 28 Dispensationalism, God temporarily turned from Israel and began the Body of Christ, with its' own gospel through Paul.

Mid-Acts is itself now divided between the above Mid-Acts Dispensationalism and another Mid-Acts that holds Paul had preached three gospels - two in Acts, one after.

Their views are clearly a mix or "hybrid" of Acts 9 and Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

Hope that helps...

2 Tim. 2:15-18.


Hi Danoh and in Gal 1:23 there are 3 gospels in that verse !!

Can you find them ?

Then in Rom 5:14 we have a FOURTH GOSPEL , , because Death reigned fro Adam to Moses , and since that is true , HOW WERE PEOPLE SAVED DURING THAT TIME ??

Then there is the EVERLASTING GOSPEL in Rev 14 !!

dan p
 
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Guojing

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As with any school of thought in general, so within Christianity in particular - one is bound to run across different understandings within a same school.

As with Reformed and it's various offshoots, Dispensationalism is no different.

Most who hold to Dispensationalism hold an Acts 2 Dispensationalism, also known as Traditional or Classic Dispensationalism.

Such hold that Peter and Paul preached the same gospel.

This is because Acts 2 Dispensationalism never fully broke from the practice of mixing as one and the same various of those things that differ between Israel and the Body.

Then there is Acts 9 Dispensationalism aka Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - we hold that Peter and Paul did not preach the same gospel.

Peter and the Eleven had preached Israel's gospel - that Jesus Christ had been Israel's promised Messiah and King. This belief along with obeying Moses is all that is required in Matthew thru Early Acts - both before and after Christ's Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

In contrast, Paul preached - among the Gentiles - that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification.

Paul refers to this as "But now the righteousness of God without the law is made manifest..." for this began to be preached after God temporarily turned from His Prophesied plan and purpose for Israel AS A NATION.

Then you have Acts 28 Dispensationalism, which holds that Peter and Paul had preached a same gospel but only until Acts 28, when, per Acts 28 Dispensationalism, God temporarily turned from Israel and began the Body of Christ, with its' own gospel through Paul.

Mid-Acts is itself now divided between the above Mid-Acts Dispensationalism and another Mid-Acts that holds Paul had preached three gospels - two in Acts, one after.

Their views are clearly a mix or "hybrid" of Acts 9 and Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

Hope that helps...

2 Tim. 2:15-18.

Thanks for the very useful explanation.

I always thought one key distinction of dispy, whether classical, hyper or ultra, is that we read Bible passages literally.

We know Paul preached the gospel of death burial resurrection of Christ.

So when we read about Peter's frame of mind in the 4 Gospels, regarding this

  • Jesus has not died, not buried, not resurrected yet.
  • Peter did not understand why Jesus had to die
  • Peter rebuked Jesus for telling them he had to die.
  • Peter was so disillusioned about Jesus impending death that he denied Christ.
  • Peter thought someone stole the body on resurrection day
Peter still continue to somehow preach Jesus's death burial and resurrection throughout the 4 Gospels, to all the unbelieving Jews?

I mean, if the central feature of a dispy is one that reads the Bible literally, how can even a classical dispy come to the conclusion that Peter was preaching the same gospel as Paul?
 
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Danoh

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Thanks for the very useful explanation.

I always thought one key distinction of dispy, whether classical, hyper or ultra, is that we read Bible passages literally.

We know Paul preached the gospel of death burial resurrection of Christ.

So when we read about Peter's frame of mind in the 4 Gospels, regarding this

  • Jesus has not died, not buried, not resurrected yet.
  • Peter did not understand why Jesus had to die
  • Peter rebuked Jesus for telling them he had to die.
  • Peter was so disillusioned about Jesus impending death that he denied Christ.
  • Peter thought someone stole the body on resurrection day
Peter still continue to somehow preach Jesus's death burial and resurrection throughout the 4 Gospels, to all the unbelieving Jews?

I mean, if the central feature of a dispy is one that reads the Bible literally, how can even a classical dispy come to the conclusion that Peter was preaching the same gospel as Paul?

They and their predecessors have been literal but the problem is various of their conclusions are based on having failed to dig a bit deeper before allowing themselves said conclusions. Dispensationalism is about and was recovered via simply unavoidable, finer and finer distinctions between things that differ, 2 Tim. 2:15-18.
 
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Danoh

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Hi Danoh and in Gal 1:23 there are 3 gospels in that verse !!

Can you find them ?

Then in Rom 5:14 we have a FOURTH GOSPEL , , because Death reigned fro Adam to Moses , and since that is true , HOW WERE PEOPLE SAVED DURING THAT TIME ??

Then there is the EVERLASTING GOSPEL in Rev 14 !!

dan p

Lol, I hold to just four Dispensations - Promise, Law, Grace, Kingdom Fulness.

So, there.

:)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I have met people who call themselves dispensationalists but they insist that Paul's gospel is exactly the same message as what was preached by the 12, when Jesus was in the flesh.

May I check with the rest of you whether such a claim is possible? I have always thought one of the key distinguishing feature of a dispy is being Pauline, and recognizing the distinction between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace.

But are there more types of dispy than that?
'dispy'? Kindly show that in Scripture !?

Paul , instructed directly by Yahushua HaMashiach, preached Christ Crucified,
the same Gospel as the other messengers of Yahuweh...
and he took the Gospel to the other apostles/ elders/ leaders in the Ekklesia
BEFORE taking it to the people in their city,
to show by proving/testing/ that the Gospel is the same, as they verified.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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the conclusion that Peter was preaching the same gospel as Paul?
Yahuweh Reveals this fully in His Word and in the assembly of Ekklesia (set apart ones).

There is no contradiction, only perfect harmony in Christ Jesus with all those proclaiming the word of and from the Father, totally in harmony with all Scripture.
 
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Guojing

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'dispy'? Kindly show that in Scripture !?

Paul , instructed directly by Yahushua HaMashiach, preached Christ Crucified,
the same Gospel as the other messengers of Yahuweh...
and he took the Gospel to the other apostles/ elders/ leaders in the Ekklesia
BEFORE taking it to the people in their city,
to show by proving/testing/ that the Gospel is the same, as they verified.

You care to address my point about Peter?

Given what he knew during the 4 gospels, can you seriously believe he also preached the death burial and resurrection of Christ during THAT time? If so, tell me how you could reach that conclusion.
 
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Guojing

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They and their predecessors have been literal but the problem is various of their conclusions are based on having failed to dig a bit deeper before allowing themselves said conclusions. Dispensationalism is about and was recovered via simply unavoidable, finer and finer distinctions between things that differ, 2 Tim. 2:15-18.

So the next time a classical dispy tells me he is a dispy, I will ask "Do you really read the Bible literally?" ^_^
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You care to address my point about Peter?

Given what he knew during the 4 gospels, can you seriously believe he also preached the death burial and resurrection of Christ during THAT time? If so, tell me how you could reach that conclusion.
???
I did not seek nor try to reach a "conclusion".

Nor should anyone else who I know of, not anyone seeking Yahuweh's Kingdom , and seeking the Truth, as written in and through all Scripture.

Instead, Let Yahuweh Reveal Salvation and Everything Concerning Salvation as He Pleases, as Written Directly in His Word , as Planned by Him, in His Purpose, for this is His Good Pleasure, as Yahushua Praised Him for openly out loud in front of His disciples as recorded in Scripture.
 
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Dan Perez

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I did not seek nor try to reach a "conclusion".

Nor should anyone else who I know of, not anyone seeking Yahuweh's Kingdom , and seeking the Truth, as written in and through all Scripture.

Instead, Let Yahuweh Reveal Salvation and Everything Concerning Salvation as He Pleases, as Written Directly in His Word , as Planned by Him, in His Purpose, for this is His Good Pleasure, as Yahushua Praised Him for openly out loud in front of His disciples as recorded in Scripture.


Hi and In Acts 15:11 it reads But we believe through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ to be SAVED AS THEY ALSO !!

It obvious from this verse and the rest of Acts 15:11 Peter was not saved by GRACE !!

Also Gal 3:28 the 12 Apostles were not in the BODY OF CHRIST !!

And Col 3:11 say the same thing !!

dan p
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Hi and In Acts 15:11 it reads But we believe through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ to be SAVED AS THEY ALSO !!
It obvious from this verse and the rest of Acts 15:11 Peter was not saved by GRACE !!
Also Gal 3:28 the 12 Apostles were not in the BODY OF CHRIST !!
And Col 3:11 say the same thing !!
I guess it is too much to hope that the double exclamation marks are an attempt to backspace-erase the sentence ?
Can't derail the thread for this 'strange post' - it is too far from the Scripture meaning revealed to Ekklesia, written by the men called and chosen by Yahuweh to write His Word.
 
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Dan Perez

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I guess it is too much to hope that the double exclamation marks are an attempt to backspace-erase the sentence ?
Can't derail the thread for this 'strange post' - it is too far from the Scripture meaning revealed to Ekklesia, written by the men called and chosen by Yahuweh to write His Word.


Hi and I numb fingers and hamper me all the time and , so I will type 3 exclamation marks , just for you !!

And would rather have your reply as to what Acts 15:11 means from you !!!

dan p
 
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Danoh

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So the next time a classical dispy tells me he is a dispy, I will ask "Do you really read the Bible literally?" ^_^

They start out literal. But then, where they have failed to dig a bit deeper before allowing themselves their conclusip.s. on it, they wind up, say, turning into a figure of speech, for example, that which is literal.

They never FULLY broke away from the Reformed that Darby's Dispensationalism arose out of, and eventually broke away from.

As a result, they continue to fuse together various of the things of Israel with those of the Body.

Personally, I continue find such mis-fires a fascinating study in Perception.

Nevertheless, as the Apostle Paul basically notes in 2 Timothy 2:15-18, things that differ, are not...the same.
 
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thomas15

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Hi and In Acts 15:11 it reads But we believe through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ to be SAVED AS THEY ALSO !!

It obvious from this verse and the rest of Acts 15:11 Peter was not saved by GRACE !!

Also Gal 3:28 the 12 Apostles were not in the BODY OF CHRIST !!

And Col 3:11 say the same thing !!

dan p

Dan,

By the time we get to Acts ch 15 we are years, perhaps decades into the church age. Acts ch 15 is a discussion leading up to the Jerusalem council/ The purpose of the council was to determine if gentile believers should live in accordance with the Jewish laws, at least with respect to circumcision.

Note that the people that this would affect are believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

You may like to consider the possibility that the issue of being "saved" in this passage has to do with good works that will result in rewards in the kingdom not salvation. It appears to me that the issue of salvation in these individuals has been already determined, In the case of Peter it was determined years earlier.
 
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Guojing

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They start out literal. But then, where they have failed to dig a bit deeper before allowing themselves their conclusip.s. on it, they wind up, say, turning into a figure of speech, for example, that which is literal.

They never FULLY broke away from the Reformed that Darby's Dispensationalism arose out of, and eventually broke away from.

As a result, they continue to fuse together various of the things of Israel with those of the Body.

Personally, I continue find such mis-fires a fascinating study in Perception.

Nevertheless, as the Apostle Paul basically notes in 2 Timothy 2:15-18, things that differ, are not...the same.

Yep, I regard Cornelius R Stam's book things that differ, as probably the landmark book of mid Acts dispy.
 
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Guojing

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I did not seek nor try to reach a "conclusion".

Nor should anyone else who I know of, not anyone seeking Yahuweh's Kingdom , and seeking the Truth, as written in and through all Scripture.

Instead, Let Yahuweh Reveal Salvation and Everything Concerning Salvation as He Pleases, as Written Directly in His Word , as Planned by Him, in His Purpose, for this is His Good Pleasure, as Yahushua Praised Him for openly out loud in front of His disciples as recorded in Scripture.

People are always trying to reach a conclusion, its either they reached that thru what church doctrine they have been taught by others for years, or when they read scripture for themselves to discover what actually went down.

Of course, there will be some who will insist that, "Nobody taught me, it was the Holy Spirit who guided me to this conclusion when I read the Bible on my own".
 
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Guojing

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It appears to me that the issue of salvation in these individuals has been already determined, In the case of Peter it was determined years earlier.

If you understand the OT, that is not true. The issue of salvation in the OT was vague compared to under Paul's gospel.

But one aspect is quite clear: the Jews in the OT were not saved individually (unlike us now) , but were saved by being part of the collective Israel.

Gentiles could be saved in the OT, but only thru the Jews (Genesis 12:3) This means you have to be part of Israel, in order to be saved. But if you are cut off from the collective, there goes your salvation.

And under the covenant given to Abraham for all Jews, circumcision was necessary for anyone, those who refused to be circumcised were immediately cut off. The passage is found in Genesis 17

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
====

So Acts 15 was not just about rewards in heaven. They have to decide whether Gentiles saved from then on had to follow this basic covenant, which involves salvation.
 
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