Commandments Question

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Sorry, no. That doesn't work with people today. Too many wrongly , in error, seem to think they are keeping the two (often happens when they say they only have to keep two),
yet they don't keep any, not the two, nor the ten, nor one, two, three.... etc.....

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No one other than Jesus could keep the law, no matter what list you compile.

fwGod said:

The ten commandments were given over 3,000 years ago.
The law that Jesus referred to was the sacrificial requirement of the shed blood of bulls which covered the sins of the people. Read Ps.40 and Heb.10.

.."For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt the guilt of their sins. Instead, those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You prepared for me."​

For the Jews the Sabbath was a two day matter (Friday & Saturday). The new moon is a two day matter.

Christians observe Sunday because that is the first day of the week when Jesus had arisen from the dead.

Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. Mark 16:1-2 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.​

The merchants were chomping at the bit for the festival (no buying or selling) to get over so that the Jews would come and buy their produce and wares.. the merchants hiked the price that starved the poor. So God vowed to punish the merchants. The scripture reference could relate to the future falling of Babylon during the Tribulation.
What was taken away was our sin debt. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away our sins.

The duty to the ten commandments were not taken away.

In Romans 13 the ten commandments are listed to indicate that observing to do them is the same as loving one's neighbor as yourself. Therefore, our keeping them, observing to do them is to fulfill all the law that is still our duty to do.

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We are not under the law as we are now under grace. The only debt we now owe to God is to love others as Christ has loved us.

God is love and that is exactly what Christ within will magnify.

Not the letter of the law.

Michael Vichiola said:

Hello!
So ive been thinking abut this and im a bit confused. God put the 10 commandments in place billions of years ago which lead up to todays generation. When jesus came around, he said,"I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" And one prophecy concerning the sabbath (wrking on sunday? idk) says in amos, "When will the new moon be over that we may sell grain, and the sabbath be ended..." Amos 8:5 and then the lord answers in verse 9. When jesus is asked by a rich man about which commandments to follow he replies with, "you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, steal, give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 19:18) And in Colossians, it appears that the mosaic law was taken away when scripture says, "having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us, he has taken away, nailing it to the cross.' (Colossians 2:14) Here are my questions: What does this verse mean?, If jesus fulfilled ceremonial law, then wouldn't that take away the sabbath? Which commandments do we follow if this is the case? From a fellow believer- Michael V

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Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily was taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, he is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Michael Vichiola said:

Hello!
So ive been thinking abut this and im a bit confused. God put the 10 commandments in place billions of years ago which lead up to todays generation. When jesus came around, he said,"I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" And one prophecy concerning the sabbath (wrking on sunday? idk) says in amos, "When will the new moon be over that we may sell grain, and the sabbath be ended..." Amos 8:5 and then the lord answers in verse 9. When jesus is asked by a rich man about which commandments to follow he replies with, "you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, steal, give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 19:18) And in Colossians, it appears that the mosaic law was taken away when scripture says, "having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us, he has taken away, nailing it to the cross.' (Colossians 2:14) Here are my questions: What does this verse mean?, If jesus fulfilled ceremonial law, then wouldn't that take away the sabbath? Which commandments do we follow if this is the case? From a fellow believer- Michael V

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Also, see my signature at the bottom of each of my posts, as well.
May God bless you;
And I hope that what I said helps.

Michael Vichiola said:

Hello!
So ive been thinking abut this and im a bit confused. God put the 10 commandments in place billions of years ago which lead up to todays generation. When jesus came around, he said,"I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" And one prophecy concerning the sabbath (wrking on sunday? idk) says in amos, "When will the new moon be over that we may sell grain, and the sabbath be ended..." Amos 8:5 and then the lord answers in verse 9. When jesus is asked by a rich man about which commandments to follow he replies with, "you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, steal, give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 19:18) And in Colossians, it appears that the mosaic law was taken away when scripture says, "having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us, he has taken away, nailing it to the cross.' (Colossians 2:14) Here are my questions: What does this verse mean?, If jesus fulfilled ceremonial law, then wouldn't that take away the sabbath? Which commandments do we follow if this is the case? From a fellow believer- Michael V

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Oh, and just so that there is no confusion:

I believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, and seeking forgiveness with Him) and it is not by "Works Alone Salvationism" that does not include God's grace and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). For if we stumble into sin, do we get clean by doing a good work? No. We get clean and forgiven (saved) again by God's grace. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9, cf. 1 John 2:1). But after we are saved by God's grace, I believe that we need to bring forth "works of faith" (obedience to Christ's commands) as a part of the Sanctification process (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives to make us holy) in the next step or stage in the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). Paul also says we can deny God by a lack of works in our life (Titus 1:16).

Michael Vichiola said:

Hello!
So ive been thinking abut this and im a bit confused. God put the 10 commandments in place billions of years ago which lead up to todays generation. When jesus came around, he said,"I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" And one prophecy concerning the sabbath (wrking on sunday? idk) says in amos, "When will the new moon be over that we may sell grain, and the sabbath be ended..." Amos 8:5 and then the lord answers in verse 9. When jesus is asked by a rich man about which commandments to follow he replies with, "you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, steal, give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 19:18) And in Colossians, it appears that the mosaic law was taken away when scripture says, "having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us, he has taken away, nailing it to the cross.' (Colossians 2:14) Here are my questions: What does this verse mean?, If jesus fulfilled ceremonial law, then wouldn't that take away the sabbath? Which commandments do we follow if this is the case? From a fellow believer- Michael V

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The Sabbath is not on Sunday, that is the 1st day of the week. Regarding Colossians, He took away the curse of the law nailing it to the cross. You can only follow commandments that apply to you. The Commandments are the Mind of The Ancient of days...The Almighty.

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, see my signature at the bottom of each of my posts, as well.
May God bless you;
And I hope that what I said helps.

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What commands in the NT and not in the OT? Are you saying that Yeshua and The Father are at odds? A divided house can not stand...

Chris35 said:

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

Anyone know the meaning of this parable, and also why is there no mention of law in it?

Why does he use feeding the hungry, inviting strangers in, ect as an example, when these things are not required by the 10 commandments / law.

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THIS IS TORAH!

dqhall said:

If it says I should do no work on the Day of Atonement, I do not know when that is.

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Oct 9, 2019

Michael Vichiola said:

Hello!
So ive been thinking abut this and im a bit confused. God put the 10 commandments in place billions of years ago which lead up to todays generation. When jesus came around, he said,"I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" And one prophecy concerning the sabbath (wrking on sunday? idk) says in amos, "When will the new moon be over that we may sell grain, and the sabbath be ended..." Amos 8:5 and then the lord answers in verse 9. When jesus is asked by a rich man about which commandments to follow he replies with, "you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, steal, give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 19:18) And in Colossians, it appears that the mosaic law was taken away when scripture says, "having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us, he has taken away, nailing it to the cross.' (Colossians 2:14) Here are my questions: What does this verse mean?, If jesus fulfilled ceremonial law, then wouldn't that take away the sabbath? Which commandments do we follow if this is the case? From a fellow believer- Michael V

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“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:9–10 (KJV 1900)

The Ten Commandments forced sinners to act like they loved God and people under threat of death. But the born again fulfilled them because they loved God and people. So the TC had an audience they were aimed at.

Jesus fulfilled them perfectly and replaced them with the New Covenant. The New Covenant is for believers only. In the New Birth, believers love God and People and don't need to be told not to steal or murder.

So the TC are good for commentary, but we are not under them. Why? Because Paul says love fulfills the law.

“Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” Romans 13:10 (KJV 1900)

fwGod said:

Yet those in the new testament gathered and met on the first day of the week. Therefore you require an official commandment from the mouth of God where there doesn't need to be one.

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No... the disciples including Paul, gathered for what is called Havdallah... and end of Sabbath meal and prayer for the coming week. Once done, Paul taught. That was on what we call a Saturday night. But because the bible begins it's day at sundown, it was the first day of the week.... but still not Sunday morning. So not on Sunday as you know it today, and no mandate. Just because somebody gathered and taught on any day doesn't decree that day supersedes something God set apart at Creation.

fwGod said:

Is there a commandment given that non kosher foods can be eaten? No. Yet the apostle Paul stated (not by commandment) that all things, foods are permissible.

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That isn't what 1 Timothy says. Think about it, first of all, God made some animals food, and some were not food. Second, in 1 Timothy 4, the context of verses 3 and 4 are tied to 5 which says, "for it sanctified by the word of God and prayer." It, is that which was received, and that which was received was set apart by the Word of God. Well guess what... there was no NT back then, not until about 200AD. So the "Word of God" was the Tanach, the OT... and there the only thing set apart to be received as food are those things God created to be food.

fwGod said:

also he wrote "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

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If the Sabbath and New Moon gathering are not for us, and not for today.... then there isn't anything to judge because they don't exist anymore. But they do exist, and we are to gather on these days and we shouldn't be bothered when others, who don't understand, judge us. You are part of Israel now, whether you know it today or not. As Paul wrote in Ephesians 2, you WERE a gentile and WERE an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel but are NOW through the blood of Christ, a fellow citizen. And as part of Israel, the Sabbath remains and perpetual (everlasting, never ending) sign of the covenant.

fwGod said:

The fact that Jesus arose on the first day of the week, and example of the new testament believers is the reason.

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First of all, there is nothing that says to set apart Sunday. Nothing... not one verse. Second, if WHEN he rose matters that much to you, then you need to get up BEFORE sunrise on Sunday to celebrate the time. Because at sunrise, the tomb was ALREADY empty, he had ALREADY risen... and yet you wait many hours to celebrate because the day he rose is so important to you? I don't care what you do... I don't even think you are wrong to gather on Sunday... all I am saying is, not one verse says the Sabbath is not for today, and not one verse says to replace it with Sunday. I can tell you EXACTLY when and why SOME Hellenized Jews began to keep Sunday and when it became the majority practice.

fwGod said:

Since you are demanding an official commandment then you are demanding the letter of the law which results in bondage, and therefore has actually been abolished and grace has taken it's place.

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Don't waste your time on this. There were two Pharisaical schools in that day, one taught the letter of the law, one taught the spirit of the law. Paul went to the law and yet still killed Christians. I would think you can't fully explain the difference between the two. I will... the letter ALONE kills... it doesn't say the letter kills. Do not steal still applies... don't take something that belongs to somebody else. But don't even set your heart on taking it because when you do, you have already sinned. THAT is the spirit behind the letter. Don't believe me... go look at messiah's examples. To lay with another's wife is adultery... STILL adultery. But to do so in the heart is ALSO adultery. To physically kill your brother is murder... to hate in the heart is the same.

fwGod said:

But you don't keep grace.

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God gives grace, period.

fwGod said:

It makes no sense to only go to church on Sunday for Easter, then the rest of the year go to church on Saturday.

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You could have asked for an explanation rather than tell me what I do makes no sense. It does... if you want to hear it. If not it will always just not make sense.

fwGod said:

When He was raised from physical death, we were raised up from spiritual death. So why should we live one day of the year as a spiritually alive person and the rest of the year like a spiritually dead person?

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You are spiritually raised when you come to Him in faith. Once done it's done, it isn't a recurring event. "Now we are the children of God and it does not yet appear what WE SHALL BE." The work is not done, we are not to camp at the cross... we are to come in faith believing and then begin a journey where we learn what God's will is for our lives and walk it out the best we can... learning from any mistakes we make and we will make them.

You make this sound like bondage when it is joy to be part of His family!

Kaon said:

The Hebrews didn't understand the juxtaposition between mercy and execution of judgment; that is why (for example) the Word of God had to show them an example - namely with the woman to be stoned. Everyone will be judged; no law has been done away with. The point of the Law is to bring correction while one can still be corrected; once the new bodies are given, you will be complete, and the Law will be hard-wired into you. The Law was so perfect that the Word of God Himself followed it perfectly - vindicating the Most High God, and the fact that His Law is not too hard for man.

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Why did Jesus pick grain on the Sabbath? The law forbids such work as harvesting, food preparation or cooking on the seventh day. In Israel they do not drive on the seventh day as they claim it is work. Why do Christians work on the seventh day, if the law is so perfect? Why do Christians ignore laws of ritual cleanness found in the five Books of Moses? Why have the sacrifices been abandoned if your law is so perfect? I do not believe the Bible is 100% perfect. Jesus came to establish a better way, not to do the will of the priests and teachers of the law.

fwGod said:

So also he wrote "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

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I do hope you address some of the things I shared in my other response to you, but I wanted to add a thought.

Jesus didn't come to die so that "do not steal" was no longer binding. He didn't die so that a man could now lay with a man as he would a woman. He didn't die so that when we dig a hole for some reason on our property and somebody walks by and falls in and gets hurt, that we are no longer responsible... and yes, that is a commandment. What he DID come to die for was to nail our guilty verdict to the cross... he came to reverse the curse of sin and death... reverse what the first Adam introduced into this world.

He also came for another reason, he came to show us how God's expects us all to walk. Let me share with you a verse that is entirely misunderstood. In fact, it is taken completely opposite to how it should be understood.

“Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to do away with them but to fulfill them.

In the above verse, the word "fulfill" is taken by most Christians to mean, "do away with, abolish." So, read it that way....

“Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to do away with them but to do away with them."

Doesn't make sense... the verse contradicts itself by the manner in which we interpret "fulfill." In fact, it not only contradicts itself, it contradicts the next two verses which speak about law being here unless heaven and earth are passed away... which they are not. So then, what does "fulfill" mean in this verse?

According to Thayer, there is an alternate defintion of pleroo (the underlying Greek word) that really brings Matt. 5:17 to life, for me anyway. It says:

Pleroo (G4137) - to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment.

He walked out the law and prophets to the fullness of God's desire, the fullness of God's expectations. He walked it out perfectly and in doing so... blazed a path we can follow. We now understand HOW to walk the walk and are to FOLLOW HIM. So, we FOLLOW HIM. We do as he did, think as he thought, love as he loved, etc. And don't come back saying this isn't possible... to save you time, my reply will be, "I can do ALL THINGS through Christ who strengthens me."

So if he kept the Sabbath, how can we say we follow him if we keep a different day? If he kept Passover, how can we say we follow him if we don't? If we eat pork and pork would NEVER have touched his lips... then how can we say, "I follow the Lord." Because clearly, we are following our desires and/or our tradition.

I am not questioning your heart, or your love for the Lord. I am simply posing questions to create some thought independent and outside of, tradition.

That's how I see this, and if you see it otherwise, that's fine, that's between you and God.

dqhall said:

Why did Jesus pick grain on the Sabbath? The law forbids such work as harvesting, food preparation or cooking on the seventh day.

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The actual Law from the Word of God says that the Hebrews should do no servile work. Harvesting is servile, because that is work. Gathering food because you are starving, and/or you need to feed someone or yourself is called survival. The Word of God Himself showed us the boundaries of the Law we didn't even realize - even after hearing it for generations after Moses received the Law, formally, from the Most High God. He even gave us an example of how other righteous people stayed within the boundary of the Law even if the Hebrews didn't find it lawful (e.g. David).

How can a Christian possibly say that the Word of God broke any Law? No, He did not break the Sabbath Law; He broke the dogmatic statutes of the institutions of that time. That's one reason He mentioned that the Sabbath was made for man, not man the Sabbath.

In Israel they do not drive on the seventh day as they claim it is work. Why do Christians work on the seventh day, if the law is so perfect? Why do Christians ignore laws of ritual cleanness found in the five Books of Moses? Why have the sacrifices been abandoned if your law is so perfect? I do not believe the Bible is 100% perfect. Jesus came to establish a better way, not to do the will of the priests and teachers of the law.

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The Law is Perfect because it came from the Most High God. Sacrifices are abandoned because the Word of God Himself sacrificed Himself for our sin - that one actually redeems us. Do you realize sacrifices pointed to Him and His sacrifice the entire time? Christians ignore Law DOGMA - humans telling them the Word of God "isn't really what it seems", and that the Law of God is conditional and void. That is on the teachers who teach this. However, our inability to follow the Law perfectly isn't a reflection on the Law; it is a reflection on our degeneracy, imperfection and evil.


I cannot believe what I am hearing today; where did the Most High God Himself ever say any of His Law was void, inert or no longer applicable?

Michael Vichiola said:

(Colossians 2:14) What does this verse mean?

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"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:14).

Since the bible it is only "those who do His com-
mandments...who have the right to enter...the city,
the commandments could not be "contrary to us."

Revelation specifically shows that those who break one of at least four of the ten commandments will be outside God's city (Revelation 22:15).

The ten commandments were not "nailed to the cross," what was? Look again at what the Bible actually says (two translations):

14 having wiped out the handwriting of
requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross ( NKJV)

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.. (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the stake, some call a cross

Which requirements were wiped out? the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay

--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements").

But only the penalty, not the law!
Even some Protestant commentators realize this is so. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

"Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin.

This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

look at the Greek term exaleipho translated as "wiped out" in Colossians 2:14:

NT:1813
exaleipho (ex-al-i'-fo); from NT:1537 and NT:218; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin) (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International)

In other words, exaleipho has to do with wiping out sin. This is also confirmed in Acts 3:19 where Peter also uses the term exaleipho, which is translated as "blotted out" below:

19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Hence, it is sin and the related penalties that are to be blotted or wiped out. And the penalties could vary from "being unclean to the evening" (Leviticus 11:24-28) to making an offering (Leviticus 5:5-6) to being "cut off from his people" (Leviticus 7:27) to the death penalty (Exodus 31:14).

This is also confirmed elsewhere
in the New Testament:

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). The curse of the law is related to the penalty. And Jesus paid it.

But what about the law of God?
Was the law of God to be wiped out? No:

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill (Matthew 5:17)

While some erroneously think that Jesus, for example, did away with the Ten Commandments by how He led His life, that most certainly was not the view of the early Christians who continued to keep them[Paul included]

Furthermore, remember that the Bible clearly teaches that sin is lawlessness:Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (I John 3:4-5).

Notice that Paul wrote:

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:1-2).

Thus the New Testament makes clear that the law of God continues, thus it was not nailed to the cross or somehow wiped out.
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The Bible, however, also shows that the requirements of the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 9:1,6-10) sometimes called the law, which were part of the penalty of sin, were blotted out.

And why?

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins...By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all" (Hebrews 10:4,10).

Jesus' one sacrifice was and is sufficient--
we do not have to sacrifice animals any more!

Another requirement (which is related) would be the death penalty of sin, as "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23) or other specific ceremonial penalties associated with the Old Testament statutes (such as making a sin offering, being put outside the camp, or washing).

People will shun the Sabbath but still want their day of rest. lol

Vicky gould said:

If you want to live under the Written Law

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Just out of the blue - this 'assumption' has been claimed often on this forum, but no one so far has shown ANYONE who has posted that they "want to live under the Written Law"....
Has this changed today? Has ANYONE claimed they want to live UNDER THE WRITTEN LAW ?

klutedavid said:

No one other than Jesus could keep the law, no matter what list you compile.

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How many people do you know personally who directly committed murder,
or who every day race through red lights without hesitation ?

timothyu said:

People will shun the Sabbath but still want their day of rest. lol

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Amen. "their" day vs Yahuweh's appointed, sanctified day.... no contest for the followers of Yahushua abiding daily in Him.

dqhall said:

Why did Jesus pick grain on the Sabbath? The law forbids such work as harvesting, food preparation or cooking on the seventh day. In Israel they do not drive on the seventh day as they claim it is work. Why do Christians work on the seventh day, if the law is so perfect? Why do Christians ignore laws of ritual cleanness found in the five Books of Moses? Why have the sacrifices been abandoned if your law is so perfect? I do not believe the Bible is 100% perfect. Jesus came to establish a better way, not to do the will of the priests and teachers of the law.

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Why, because they were hungry. The law does not forbid to eat on Shabbat. They were not harvesting, nor cooking...