Did Jesus promise to return in the 1st cent.?

1-peter5-9 · Mar 28, 2003

Unfortunately, you are correct in your assessment of the Hebrew and Greek.

What it comes down to is faith. Jesus thought He would return in the lifetime of His disciples, but that didn't happen. The choice that follows of course is whether or not to believe anything else in the Bible.

I choose to believe that Jesus did not know the day or hour, and so He proved to be true to this fact by preaching that it would come in that lifetime (Mark 13:32). I still believe that THIS generation we live in is seeing not only the physical signs He mentioned (earthquakes, famines, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars, etc.), but also FALSE CHRISTS and FALSE PROPHETS.

Deception is the main sign we should look for. When truth has been cast to the ground (Daniel 8:12), you know that Jesus is sure to show up soon. He even asked the disciples, when He returns, will He really find faith on the earth?

I think this world can't bear up under the pressure of much more evil and Jesus will soon stop all of the horror and sorrow that is being perpetrated upon His true saints. God be praised! :wave:

armothe · Mar 28, 2003

Today at 01:23 PM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #141  What it comes down to is faith. Jesus thought He would return in the lifetime of His disciples, but that didn't happen. The choice that follows of course is whether or not to believe anything else in the Bible.

 

The Bible is the basis for truth. The minute you cross the line and deem any passage as false or incorrect - you've managed to close your ears to God's Word.

The only reason you are rejecting Christ's statement -that He would return in their generation- is because it doesn't fit in with your idea of how Christ's return should take place.
 

Today at 01:23 PM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #141  I choose to believe that Jesus did not know the day or hour, and so He proved to be true to this fact by preaching that it would come in that lifetime (Mark 13:32). I still believe that THIS generation we live in is seeing not only the physical signs He mentioned (earthquakes, famines, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars, etc.), but also FALSE CHRISTS and FALSE PROPHETS.

Click to expand...

 

I understand that the current generation we are living in is the only generation you've experienced, but take a look at the history books and you'll find that earthquakes, famines, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars, false christs and false prophets have always been around during different periods of history.

The difference is (in this case), that ALL of the above calamaties happened to the Jews themselves within the 2-3 years during the Roman invasion of Jerusalem around 70AD. That was not a coincidence.

I challenge you to put away your pre-concieved ideas you were taught in Sunday School, and read the truthful and everlasting Word for yourself. Christ said he'd return in His own generation, and he did!

- (v)

parousia70 · Mar 29, 2003

Today at 05:23 AM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #141

What it comes down to is faith. Jesus thought He would return in the lifetime of His disciples, but that didn't happen. The choice that follows of course is whether or not to believe anything else in the Bible.

I choose to believe that Jesus did not know the day or hour, and so He proved to be true to this fact by preaching that it would come in that lifetime (Mark 13:32). I still believe that THIS generation we live in is seeing not only the physical signs He mentioned (earthquakes, famines, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars, etc.), but also FALSE CHRISTS and FALSE PROPHETS.

Deception is the main sign we should look for. When truth has been cast to the ground (Daniel 8:12), you know that Jesus is sure to show up soon. He even asked the disciples, when He returns, will He really find faith on the earth?

I think this world can't bear up under the pressure of much more evil and Jesus will soon stop all of the horror and sorrow that is being perpetrated upon His true saints. God be praised!

If you believe scripture could be so wrong about the "timing" of an event as important as the 2nd coming, how can you be sure it is right about the anything else?

I agree with armothe 100%.

Once we claim Jesus was in error on ANY ONE teaching of His, we no longer can claim He was NOT in error on any other.

Not knowing the day or hour does not prevent Him from knowing that His generation would not pass away befopre it took place.

Consider a pregnant woman (an analogy often used  by Chirst Himself) 

  While she does not know the day or hour she will give birth, she knows for certain that about 40 weeks after conception, she's having a baby.

"This Gestation Shall not pass away......"

1-peter5-9 · Mar 29, 2003

Jesus wasn't retarded and He wasn't just a proud Man who fancied Himself to be a prophet in a line of many. He knew He did not know the day or the hour of His return.

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father." Mark 13:32. These are His own Words.

So if He admitted to not knowing the hour of His return, what makes you think that automatically casts doubt on the rest of the things He taught. Just because you don't believe the Bible to be true, doesn't make it false.

There comes a time that Jerry Garcia takes your hands and says don't you see. Unfortunately for him, his time of doubt came to an end. I hope yours does BEFORE the day of your death.

Jesus said the church of the end would need eye salve so that it might see. DOUBT is that blindness He knew it would have. God grant us the eye salve of His Spirit to take another look. I will be the first to agree that the Bible has contradictions and doubtful things surrounding it. Unfortunately, if you look around at what is happening in the world, in OUR own lives, it makes doubt a little harder. The churches are full of liars and hypocrites and lewdness and abomination. If this is a good enough indicator that God is testing us to see whether we will be believe BEYOND the shadow of doubt, then I don't know of what else could happen to make a person believe. I'll be praying for you.

1-peter5-9 · Mar 29, 2003

Preterist : another word for an unbeliever who wishes to justify their own sinful lives by believing the Bible is errant and everything that could happen to punish them for their own ungodliness has already happened to people they don't even know sometime in the early years A.D.

parousia70 · Mar 30, 2003

Yesterday at 11:31 AM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #144

Jesus wasn't retarded and He wasn't just a proud Man who fancied Himself to be a prophet in a line of many. He knew He did not know the day or the hour of His return.

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father." Mark 13:32. These are His own Words.

So if He admitted to not knowing the hour of His return, what makes you think that automatically casts doubt on the rest of the things He taught. Just because you don't believe the Bible to be true, doesn't make it false.

Pete,

Clearly you misunderstand me. I believe the Bible to be 100% true and correct. never said or implied I don't.

It is you who stated Jesus was in error, not I.

There comes a time that Jerry Garcia takes your hands and says don't you see.

Impressive! First CF member to accurately decipher my signature! How many shows did you go to?

 I'll be praying for you.

Thanks! I can use all the prayers I can get! I'll be praying for you too!

parousia70 · Mar 30, 2003

Yesterday at 11:45 AM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #145

Preterist : another word for an unbeliever who wishes to justify their own sinful lives by believing the Bible is errant and everything that could happen to punish them for their own ungodliness has already happened to people they don't even know sometime in the early years A.D.

 

So preterists are not Christians?

Please show from scripture how adhearing to the "Correct" eschatology is a requirement for salvation, and please provide one example of a "preterist" who does not believe that Jesus is the only name under heaven by which a man can be saved.

Better start doing your homework.

 

judge · Mar 30, 2003

Hi Parousia70...can you tell me which translation the 100 verses you quoted are from? (and mind if I use them?)

edpobre · Mar 31, 2003

25th March 2003 at 02:13 AM parousia70 said this in Post #131

Dear Ed,

Isaiah and John both make it quite clear that Sinners, murderers, adulterers, evildoers and all sorts of "Ungodly People" would still be "in our midst" after we enter the New heavens and earth. (Isaiah 65:17-21, Revelation 22:15) 

Better try another argument.

P70

Your INTERPRETATION of Rev. 22:15 is WRONG.

Apostle Peter wrote: "But the heavens and the earth which NOW exist are kept in store by the same word, RESERVED for fire and PERDITION of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7).

Apostle Peter continues: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens  will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

Apostle Peter is telling us that when the Lord Jesus comes (judgment day - Acts 17:31), UNGODLY men will be DESTROYED! And the heavens and the earth which NOW exist will PASS away.

Now listen to apostle Paul tell us what will DWELL in the NEW heavens and the NEW earth: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for NEW heavens and a NEW earth in which RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells" (2 Peter 3:13).

Apostle Peter tells us that RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells in the NEW heavens and the NEW earth. Thus, as I said before, Rev. 22:14-15 refer to the PRESENT.

So I ask again P70, if Jesus CAME in 70 AD, why are there still UNGODLY people in our midst? They were supposed to be DESTROYED with the coming of Christ.

If we are NOW in the NEW heavens and a NEW earth, why is it that RIGHTEOUSNESS does NOT dwell in it?

Ed

 

1-peter5-9 · Mar 31, 2003

Yesterday at 05:22 PM parousia70 said this in Post #146
It is you who stated Jesus was in error, not I.

Just because Jesus didn't KNOW the day or hour of His return (Mark 13:32) doesn't mean that He was in error.  So, no I did not.

[QUOTE
Impressive! First CF member to accurately decipher my signature! How many shows did you go to?
[/QUOTE]

I'm too young to have seen any of their real shows, since my mom never let me see shows until I got older.  I did see the Other One's in 1999, but that's all.  I don't listen to them anymore though.  Now I'm more into praise and worship music and black gospel like M.W. Smith, Mississippi Mass Choir, and John P. Kee's projects.  I wish people were more impressed with my faith than with my knowledge of worldy things, but anyhow...

[QUOTE
Thanks! I can use all the prayers I can get! I'll be praying for you too!
[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

1-peter5-9 · Mar 31, 2003

Yesterday at 05:23 PM parousia70 said this in Post #147 

Please show from scripture how adhearing to the "Correct" eschatology is a requirement for salvation, and please provide one example of a "preterist" who does not believe that Jesus is the only name under heaven by which a man can be saved. 

 

It doesn't even take a specific Scripture to do so; only COMMON SENSE.

Why would Paul or any writer of the Bible have spent so much time trying to remind the churches that Christ had NOT returned yet.  How about 1 Thessalonians 5? Or 2 Thessalonians 2?

Peter said there would be false teachers, and there are.  Just because a person says that Jesus is the name that saves them...doesn't make them honest...or even saved. 

The devil transforms himself into an angel of light.  Why should it be surprising to people that there are so many completely confused doctrines that make no sense, like that Jesus already came and went. 

Anyway, especially ONLINE, it is impossible to prove doctrines and true Christians who have innocent hearts are kept by the Spirit of Truth and they will be able to decipher for themselves what is true and what is false by checking it with the Word of God and whether or not their spirit bears witness with what is being said.

To me, it is just common sense that Jesus has not returned yet, but will.  I don't see Him anywhere with my eyes - but what I do see seems to me like a last days scenario I read about somewhere.  That is why I will leave you with these:

Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; all of Revelation.

God bless you.

armothe · Mar 31, 2003

Today at 12:36 PM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #151  To me, it is just common sense that Jesus has not returned yet, but will.  I don't see Him anywhere with my eyes - but what I do see seems to me like a last days scenario I read about somewhere. 

You keep looking for a Physical Jesus with your eyes.... while I enjoy His spiritual presence in my life.

Kingdom of Christ is not a visible physical thing:

Luke 17:20 - Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, Look, here it is! or There it is! For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

Christ's Second Coming was not a visible physical event:

Luke 17:22-24 -  Then he said to the disciples, "The days are coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. They will say to you, Look there! or Look here! Do not go, do not set off in pursuit. For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day".

His coming was instantaneous, quick, and as He told his disciples, they would not see Him (physically).

The past 2000 years have been full of people who believed they were living in the "end times". What makes this time period so special?

-A

1-peter5-9 · Mar 31, 2003

Again, there really isn't any reason for me to bother telling you what makes this time period different. You already know. We all do except maybe a poor sinner who is about to be tested to the utmost with the decision to join with evil doers or to run for dear life from everything that threatens their safety. I just hope and pray they all choose right when faced with choosing evil.

No, the kingdom of God isn't physical, but the New Jerusalem Jesus went away to prepare for us is physical, and with tremendous faith - actually seeing it in real time can be imaged.

I'm done debating this topic. God bless, guys.

armothe · Mar 31, 2003

Today at 06:47 PM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #153 Again, there really isn't any reason for me to bother telling you what makes this time period different. You already know.

I can only tell you that technology and science is more advanced than at any other time. But this will be the case no matter what -as time progresses.

This period of time is not more evil than any other.
We don't have more wars than any other.
There aren't more earthquakes than any other.

Today at 06:47 PM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #153 No, the kingdom of God isn't physical, but the New Jerusalem Jesus went away to prepare for us is physical.

I'm glad you agree the kingdom isn't physical, however, the New Jerusalem is indeed the kingdom. Hence, the New Jerusalem is not a physical visible place.

Today at 06:47 PM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #153 I'm done debating this topic. God bless, guys.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the stimulating comments.

-A

parousia70 · Apr 2, 2003

31st March 2003 at 03:52 AM edpobre said this in Post #149

Apostle Peter tells us that RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells in the NEW heavens and the NEW earth. Thus, as I said before, Rev. 22:14-15 refer to the PRESENT.

So I ask again P70, if Jesus CAME in 70 AD, why are there still UNGODLY people in our midst? They were supposed to be DESTROYED with the coming of Christ.

If we are NOW in the NEW heavens and a NEW earth, why is it that RIGHTEOUSNESS does NOT dwell in it?

Ed

 

Ed, are you claiming that righteousness does NOT dwell in the New Covenant?

That the "ministration of righteousness" has no righteousness in it at all?

parousia70 · Apr 2, 2003

31st March 2003 at 04:24 AM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #150

Just because Jesus didn't KNOW the day or hour of His return (Mark 13:32) doesn't mean that He was in error.  So, no I did not.

Um... actually you did claim Jesus was wrong.

Here's the direct quote from your post #141 where you said:

"Jesus thought He would return in the lifetime of His disciples, but that didn't happen"

Now, if Jesus didn't return in the lifetime of His apostles, as is your claim, and if Jesus indeed "thought He would return in the lifetime of His apostles", as is also your claim, then you are indeed claiming Jesus was wrong.

I'm happy to give you the opportunity to retract your claims in this area.

P70

parousia70 · Apr 2, 2003

31st March 2003 at 04:36 AM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #151

It doesn't even take a specific Scripture to do so; only COMMON SENSE.

Why would Paul or any writer of the Bible have spent so much time trying to remind the churches that Christ had NOT returned yet.  How about 1 Thessalonians 5? Or 2 Thessalonians 2?

Peter said there would be false teachers, and there are.  Just because a person says that Jesus is the name that saves them...doesn't make them honest...or even saved. 

The devil transforms himself into an angel of light.  Why should it be surprising to people that there are so many completely confused doctrines that make no sense, like that Jesus already came and went. 

To me, it is just common sense that Jesus has not returned yet, but will.  I don't see Him anywhere with my eyes - but what I do see seems to me like a last days scenario I read about somewhere.  That is why I will leave you with these:

Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; all of Revelation.

God bless you.

Pete,

Clearly, at the time the scriptures were penned, Jesus had not yet returned, and that is why they are written with future expectation, but what you seem to ignore is that they were all written with IMMEDIATE expectation, and they could not err.

You seem to be saying, "don't bother me with the scripture, I can tell by looking around that Jesus isn't here."

I, on the other hand, prefer to let scripture determine my eschatology, not CNN.

Your assertion that something besides simply acepting Jesus in your heart as your Lord and Savior is required to be saved is something scripture simply does not support.

Also, contrary to your assertion, Preterists do not believe or teach that Jesus "Came and left", we teach He came exactly as and WHEN He promised, and He remains.

Why you'd want to take the current ability you now enjoy to have a personal conversation "face to face" with Jesus  any time of day or night you want, and trade it for a Fleshly Jesus on earth that you'd have to travel to Jerusalem to see, then wait in line for hundreds, even thousands of years, with the Billion or so other Christians Just to get 5 minutes "face to face" with Him, baffles me. 

 

God Bless,

P70

edpobre · Apr 4, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 01:44 AM parousia70 said this in Post #155

Ed, are you claiming that righteousness does NOT dwell in the New Covenant?

That the "ministration of righteousness" has no righteousness in it at all?

Parousia70,

Wasn't apostle Peter under the New Covenant? You ask if I am claiming that righteousness does NOT dwell in the New Covenant. I am talking of new heavens and a new earth where, according to apostle Peter, righteousness dwells,

Here's my post again. Please explain what apostle Peter meant:

Your INTERPRETATION of Rev. 22:15 is WRONG.

Apostle Peter wrote: "But the heavens and the earth which NOW exist are kept in store by the same word, RESERVED for fire and PERDITION of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7).

Apostle Peter continues: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens  will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

Apostle Peter is telling us that when the Lord Jesus comes (judgment day - Acts 17:31), UNGODLY men will be DESTROYED! And the heavens and the earth which NOW exist will PASS away.

Now listen to apostle Paul tell us what will DWELL in the NEW heavens and the NEW earth: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for NEW heavens and a NEW earth in which RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells" (2 Peter 3:13).

Apostle Peter tells us that RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells in the NEW heavens and the NEW earth. Thus, as I said before, Rev. 22:14-15 refer to the PRESENT.

So I ask again P70, if Jesus CAME in 70 AD, why are there still UNGODLY people in our midst? They were supposed to be DESTROYED with the coming of Christ.

If we are NOW in the NEW heavens and a NEW earth, why is it that RIGHTEOUSNESS does NOT dwell in it?

Ed

armothe · Apr 4, 2003

4th April 2003 at 12:36 PM edpobre said this in Post #158  Here's my post again. Please explain what apostle Peter meant:

If I may be allowed to post my interpretation:

4th April 2003 at 12:36 PM edpobre said this in Post #158 Apostle Peter wrote: "But the heavens and the earth which NOW exist are kept in store by the same word, RESERVED for fire and PERDITION of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7).

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1) Peter was not yet under the New Covenant. If you read Hebrews, the New Covenant would not yet be completed until Christ returned. Those who were called "Christians" during the first century - believed Christ came physically on earth to die for man's sins, yet was coming a second time - spiritually to consumate the age.

2) Because Christ had not yet come to finalize the New Covenant, Paul strongly urged Christians to remain "righteous" by their good hearts and deeds. You see, when Christ would come again, he would judge all those who were asleep, based upon their deeds.

3) This is why we see Paul stressing the fact that if you were a practicing Jew - who became a Christian, they should keep practicing the law. Or, if you were a Gentile who became a Christian, you didn't need to practice the law.

4th April 2003 at 12:36 PM edpobre said this in Post #158 Apostle Peter continues: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens  will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

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4) The Day of the Lord came like a thief in the night. Silent, and without notice.

5) The Day of the Lord consisted of removing the Old Covenant (Heavens, Earth, Elements, and works) and establishing the New Covenant. Works-based salvation was "burned up". Today, our salvation is not based on works, but on faith.

4th April 2003 at 12:36 PM edpobre said this in Post #158 Apostle Peter is telling us that when the Lord Jesus comes (judgment day - Acts 17:31), UNGODLY men will be DESTROYED! And the heavens and the earth which NOW exist will PASS away.

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6) When Christ returned He judged all of the ungodly men who had already died over the previous 4000 yrs, and cast them into the lake of fire.

7) Once again, the Old Covenant (previous Heaven's & Earth) has passed away.

4th April 2003 at 12:36 PM edpobre said this in Post #158 Now listen to apostle Paul tell us what will DWELL in the NEW heavens and the NEW earth: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for NEW heavens and a NEW earth in which RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells" (2 Peter 3:13). 

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8) Righteousness dwells in our society and lives today- in the form of Christians.

9) The New heavens and New earth, are the New Covenant Christ established at his coming. A covenant based on Faith, not works.

4th April 2003 at 12:36 PM edpobre said this in Post #158 Apostle Peter tells us that RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells in the NEW heavens and the NEW earth. Thus, as I said before, Rev. 22:14-15 refer to the PRESENT.

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10) Again, Righteousness does dwell in our lives today.

4th April 2003 at 12:36 PM edpobre said this in Post #158 So I ask again P70, if Jesus CAME in 70 AD, why are there still UNGODLY people in our midst? They were supposed to be DESTROYED with the coming of Christ.

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11) You are misreading scripture. The passage you speak of is/was only referring to the past and present (1st century present) ungodly people. Why do you think a book written 2000 years ago is referring to the entirety of future ungodly people?

12) The ungodly people were destroyed, as outlined in Revelation.
Those whose names were found in the book of life were kept, and those name who were not, were destroyed.

4th April 2003 at 12:36 PM edpobre said this in Post #158 If we are NOW in the NEW heavens and a NEW earth, why is it that RIGHTEOUSNESS does NOT dwell in it?
Ed

Click to expand...

Again, Righteousness does dwell in the New Covenant.
Through Christ's blood -only- is one made righteous. This means all Christians (who accept Christ's sacrifice) are righteous.
Christians live in today's society, hence, righeousness dwells.

-A

parousia70 · Apr 5, 2003

4th April 2003 at 04:36 AM edpobre said this in Post #158

Your INTERPRETATION of Rev. 22:15 is WRONG.

If we are NOW in the NEW heavens and a NEW earth, why is it that RIGHTEOUSNESS does NOT dwell in it?

Ed

Ed, as Armothe so clearly pointed out, Righteousness does indeed dwell here, now.

 

OK,Forget about Rev 22:15 for a sec, and explain to me why, when Isaiah is so plainly clear that upon and within the "new Heavens and earth" Sinners dwell, people die, and people procreate,(Isaiah 65:17-25) you choose to teach otherwise?

What truth do you know that Isaiah was so badly mistaken about?

 

Did Jesus promise to return in the 1st cent.?

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