Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 37.1%
  • No

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 14.3%

  • Total voters
    35

Daniel C

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Yes



But you didn’t address my reply


Your reply doesn't make sense,at least to me. I dealt with the main point by highlighting this is an issue of belief vs disbelief,not salvation loss.

Paul is the worst witness to call upon to try and support a works based salvation belief,especially the book of Romans which is what you are currently appealing to:

(Romans)
''Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.''


We cannot sin ourselves out of salvation when we are saved,Grace increases so we are preserved:

(Romans)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound
 
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zoidar

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The wages of sin is death which is a debt we can never pay in full which is why salvation is by grace. No amount of works can pay for sin. Nevertheless God has expectations of His children. We must love God with all our heart soul and mind and love others as Christ loves us. These expectations are not optional. What reason did Jesus give for condemning the goats in Matthew 25:31-46?

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-46‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The goats were condemned because they didn’t have love for others. Their lack of compassion in their actions was evidence of their lack of love. James makes a similar point in James 2:14-17.


“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again these are works of love.

In 1 Corinthians 3:2 Paul said if I have all faith so as to remove mountains but I have not Love I am nothing.

“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Faith without love is not a saving faith. Faith with love will result in works. Love is what Jesus was referring to in a John 15.

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another.
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Do you believe we are saved by faith without love?

Do you believe Jesus is referring to all people in Matthew 25:31-46 or Christians? I tend to think he talks about Christians, since then it makes sense what we do to Christians we are doing to Christ, since God dwells in believers. Not that we shouldn't help all people, but that we have even more responsiblity to help brothers and sisters. What do you think?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Or is it...Are the saved good servants? Or better...are all servants saved?
In the BIBLE, I THINK A NUMBER of the servants are thrown into the lake of fire. Some are called "unfaithful servants". Others may be called "apostate". And so on.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your reply doesn't make sense,at least to me. I dealt with the main point by highlighting this is an issue of belief vs disbelief,not salvation loss.

Paul is the worst witness to call upon to try and support a works based salvation belief,especially the book of Romans which is what you are currently appealing to:

(Romans)
''Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.''


We cannot sin ourselves out of salvation when we are saved,Grace increases so we are preserved:

(Romans)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound

Who grafted in the branches to the olive tree? You said that the branches that are broken off never believed. If they never believed then God wouldn’t have grafted them in to begin with. It wouldn’t make any sense for God to graft in people who don’t believe only to break them off for unbelief.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Do you believe Jesus is referring to all people in Matthew 25:31-46 or Christians? I tend to think he talks about Christians, since then it makes sense what we do to Christians we are doing to Christ, since God dwells in believers. Not that we shouldn't help all people, but that we have even more responsiblity to help brothers and sisters. What do you think?

I believe all the warnings in the Bible that pertain to loss of salvation for sin and lack of love are targeted towards Christians. Sin is irrelevant to someone who does not believe in Christ. No matter how much they refrain from sin or how much good they do they still won’t be saved if they don’t believe. Believing is just the beginning. Once we believe then we can receive the Holy Spirit who will guide us through the rest of our life in this world.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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You mean saved person can't choose a sinful lifestyle?
That would be a contradiction IMO. Choosing to willfully live a life full of unrepentant sin is not showing the fruit of the Spirit.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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That would be a contradiction IMO. Choosing to willfully live a life full of unrepentant sin is not showing the fruit of the Spirit.
And, as written in the Creator's Word (Scripture), it means the whole body is full of darkness, there is no truth and no light in it when the eye is dark. (1 John)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Who grafted in the branches to the olive tree? You said that the branches that are broken off never believed. If they never believed then God wouldn’t have grafted them in to begin with. It wouldn’t make any sense for God to graft in people who don’t believe only to break them off for unbelief.
Correct, and brought to mind an unexpected and unusual picture - God doesn't toy with people as if playing with tinker toys or lincoln logs, just putting them together and taking them apart ad lib.... although He certainly could, in perfect justice and perfect righteousness ....
 
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Daniel C

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Who grafted in the branches to the olive tree? You said that the branches that are broken off never believed. If they never believed then God wouldn’t have grafted them in to begin with. It wouldn’t make any sense for God to graft in people who don’t believe only to break them off for unbelief.


No I highlighted the verses.If this is the best you have at the end of a days debate to justify works salvation I'm not convinced.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No I highlighted the verses.If this is the best you have at the end of a days debate to justify works salvation I'm not convinced.
? .... 'forget' "works salvation", and see what God's Word Says Clearly. Some branches are grafted in. Some are later broken off and thrown into the fire. Some are never grafted in ever, at all.
 
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Daniel C

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The wages of sin is death which is a debt we can never pay in full which is why salvation is by grace. No amount of works can pay for sin. Nevertheless God has expectations of His children. We must love God with all our heart soul and mind and love others as Christ loves us. These expectations are not optional. What reason did Jesus give for condemning the goats in Matthew 25:31-46?

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-46‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The goats were condemned because they didn’t have love for others. Their lack of compassion in their actions was evidence of their lack of love. James makes a similar point in James 2:14-17.


“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again these are works of love.

In 1 Corinthians 3:2 Paul said if I have all faith so as to remove mountains but I have not Love I am nothing.

“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Faith without love is not a saving faith. Faith with love will result in works. Love is what Jesus was referring to in a John 15.

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another.
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Do you believe we are saved by faith without love?

Your opening statement is incomplete:

''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''

If God gives me a gift and says I can keep it forever only two thing can happen after the transaction-

1) God reclaims the gift he said I could keep forever,so he lied.

2) The gift is honoured and salvation is eternal,God told the truth.

Which one is it?
 
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Daniel C

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? .... 'forget' "works salvation", and see what God's Word Says Clearly. Some branches are grafted in. Some are later broken off and thrown into the fire. Some are never grafted in ever, at all.


Are you a branch?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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If God gives me a gift and says I can keep it forever only two thing can happen after the transaction-

1) God reclaims the gift he said I could keep forever,so he lied.

2) The gift is honoured and salvation is eternal,God told the truth.

Which one is it?
OR
you could give up the free gift, renounce it, turn away from it and lose it,

AS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE.

Or, when did God take away your free will ?
 
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Daniel C

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OR
you could give up the free gift, renounce it, turn away from it and lose it,

AS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE.

Or, when did God take away your free will ?


Where in scripture does it say a saved person renounces their salvation?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Where in scripture does it say a saved person renounces their salvation?
Where anywhere , in truth, does God say they cannot renounce their salvation ?

Remember there are some lists of people in Scripture of those who are not found in heaven.
 
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Blade

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No.. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. And Luke.. this was spoken before Christ died so to whom was He talking? John 3 16 tells you what it takes to be saved. Is it not written or said that all good things come form God? So to be this "good servant" one has to KNOW Him. Then its HIM in us that is the good servant. No were not puppets. Any good I do..is because of Him. Any time I give to others.. I can see I made the choices.. I can see how I did it. But I look around and all I see is HIM. I have to bow.. fall flat and worship Him for its HIM in me.. its the work He started that gives me the heart to do anything good. To think anything good..to love. Its Him.

So He the Father sees us pure holy a finished work THROUGH what Christ already did. So what we do now.. adds or takes away from rewards. As I believe.
 
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zoidar

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I believe all the warnings in the Bible that pertain to loss of salvation for sin and lack of love are targeted towards Christians. Sin is irrelevant to someone who does not believe in Christ. No matter how much they refrain from sin or how much good they do they still won’t be saved if they don’t believe. Believing is just the beginning. Once we believe then we can receive the Holy Spirit who will guide us through the rest of our life in this world.

Yes of course. But I meant when Jesus says we are to visit those in jail etc. he speaks specifically about visiting Christians in jail. If you give food to starving Christians you give food to Christ, since Christ is the head of the body of Christians, believers.

Of course we are to give all people food, but especially are we to help our sisters and brothers in Christ. That's what I meant concerning Matthew 25:31-46.
 
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zoidar

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That would be a contradiction IMO. Choosing to willfully live a life full of unrepentant sin is not showing the fruit of the Spirit.

If that is true I wasn't saved for a year or so... I don't know... maybe I wasn't ...
 
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Daniel C

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Where anywhere , in truth, does God say they cannot renounce their salvation ?

Remember there are some lists of people in Scripture of those who are not found in heaven.

You made a claim about it being written that a saved person can renounce their salvation,now challenged you can't provide it.

That's not very honest of you.
 
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