Will an Antichrist Resurrect from the Dead?? Rev 13:3

Dale · Sep 16, 2019

eleos1954 said:
As you said, satan does not have the power to resurrect anyone ... only God does.

For every truth of God ... satan has a lie ... and is extremely crafty and deceitful.

People who do not believe the dead are in fact dead and don't know anything (dormant in the grave) ... are primed to believe in familiar spirits and that they can in fact communicate with the dead. (which is not so)

satan and his demons certainly have the capability of "appearing" as something ... they are not ...

2nd Corinthians 11

New International Version
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

So yes, satan will counterfeit the resurrection (appear as people who have died) by this great illusion (working through the antichrist) and many will believe he is god because of this. MANY

People who believe in an "immortal soul" will be easily deceived, along with non-believers because of this "counterfeit resurrection" ... we are not immortal in any way, shape or form until Jesus returns ... and when Jesus returns he takes all the saved (resurrected and living) to heaven.

Also His return is not going to be any kind of a secret "rapture" ... it's going to be a loud and powerful event.

Paul sums it up quite nicely here:

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep (dormant in the grave) in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

and here ...

1 Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

We are not and do not become immortal until the Lord returns and changes us.

Eleos: "So yes, satan will counterfeit the resurrection (appear as people who have died) by this great illusion (working through the antichrist) and many will believe he is god because of this."

Prophecy makes it clear that an antichrist figure will have enormous powers of deception. The prophetic books give us only a few hints about how this deception will take place and I don't believe they mention a fake resurrection.

What Revelation does say is:

13 And it [second Beast] performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

Revelation 13: 13-15 NIV

Here we are told that the second Beast, the false prophet, will cause fire to come from the sky, and also produce an animated image. These could be very impressive demonstrations, but they are not resurrection. I'm not seeing a reason to believe that an end times antichrist or the false prophet who props him up will do a fake resurrection.

tranquil · Sep 17, 2019

The mortally head wounded person of Rev 13:3 is the 'worthless'/ 'foolish' shepherd that 'apostasizes'/ deserts the flock of Zech 11

Zechariah 11

15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take once more the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For behold, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for those being destroyed, or seek the young or heal the maimed or nourish the healthy, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.

17 “Woe to my worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm
and his right eye!
Let his arm be wholly withered,
his right eye utterly blinded!”

eleos1954 · Sep 17, 2019

Dale said:
Eleos: << As you said, satan does not have the power to resurrect anyone ... only God does.>>

I'm glad we agree about that.

Eleos: << Also His return is not going to be any kind of a secret "rapture" ... it's going to be a loud and powerful event. >>

I could not agree more.

Eleos: << People who believe in an "immortal soul" will be easily deceived, along with non-believers because of this "counterfeit resurrection" ... we are not immortal in any way, shape or form until Jesus returns ... >>

In the Baptist church, I was taught that eternal life begins as soon as we are saved, not in the afterlife.

I don't know why you want to attack the immortal soul. If there isn't any such thing as an immortal soul, why did Jesus say:

26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

Matthew 16:26 NIV

Also, in the following verse, Jesus clearly distinguishes between body and soul.

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I'm not attacking anything, the Lord teaches there is nothing immortal about us. That happens when He returns ... and we are changed.

Romans 2:7

To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:11-14

After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died."

Lazarus' "soul" or anything didn't go anywhere when he died. After Lazarus was resurrected he went on and lived out his human life on earth.

In the Baptist church, I was taught that eternal life begins as soon as we are saved, not in the afterlife.

Click to expand...

If one is in a saved condition when they die earthly death ... they will be raised in the 1st resurrection of the saved (from being dormant in the grave) and then be changed and receive immortality ... that is ... their first conscience thought they will be with Jesus.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (soul) (Gen. 2:7, NKJV).

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

Many people who believe in an immortal soul, also then believe they can talk to the dead and because of that many will be fooled by the illusion satan puts forth. Because of this many people seek out "spiritualists" of which we are taught to stay away from (such as Samuel). Some even pray to the dead.

Many use the story of Samuel citing it as "proof" we can talk to the dead ... not so .... this is an example of demonic fakery.

Scripture says, "When Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets" (1 Sam. 28:6). God, then, had nothing to do with what happened at Endor. Saul was deceived by a demon impersonating the dead Samuel; he never saw the real Samuel. The witch saw the form of an old man while Saul only "perceived" or concluded that it was Samuel (verse 14). If we are to believe that that apparition truly was Samuel, we must be prepared to believe that witches, wizards, necromancers, sorcerers, spiritualists, or mediums can call the righteous dead from wherever they go when they die. We must also accept that the godly Samuel existed in a conscious state in the earth, because the old man ascended "out of the earth" (verse 13).

This seance brought Saul despair, not hope. The next day he committed suicide (1 Sam. 31:4). Yet the so-called Samuel had predicted that on that day Saul and his sons would be with him (1 Sam. 28:19). If he were correct, we would have to conclude that after death the disobedient Saul and the righteous Samuel dwelt together. Instead, we must conclude that an evil angel brought about the deceptive events that occurred at this seance.

1 Chronicles 10

13So Saul died for his unfaithfulness to the LORD, because he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14and he failed to inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

So ... like I said satan will give the strong illusion (and already is) that he raises the dead (and you agree) .... and because of beliefs of immortality before the 1st resurrection ... this is how he is able to deceive many ... because many do not understand all the dead lay dormant in the grave and do not know anything .... until the Lord returns ... and his word is very clear on this. Knowing this is for our protection that we will not be deceived.

eleos1954 · Sep 17, 2019

Dale said:
Eleos: "So yes, satan will counterfeit the resurrection (appear as people who have died) by this great illusion (working through the antichrist) and many will believe he is god because of this."

Prophecy makes it clear that an antichrist figure will have enormous powers of deception. The prophetic books give us only a few hints about how this deception will take place and I don't believe they mention a fake resurrection.

What Revelation does say is:

13 And it [second Beast] performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

Revelation 13: 13-15 NIV

Here we are told that the second Beast, the false prophet, will cause fire to come from the sky, and also produce an animated image. These could be very impressive demonstrations, but they are not resurrection. I'm not seeing a reason to believe that an end times antichrist or the false prophet who props him up will do a fake resurrection.

Eleos: "So yes, satan will counterfeit the resurrection (appear as people who have died) by this great illusion (working through the antichrist) and many will believe he is god because of this."

correct .... and why are they easily deceived? ... because they don't believe the dead are really dead.
If someone thinks they "see" a dead loved one, and they actually speak to them .... they will be fooled. Most everyone (christians) are expecting the resurrection ... it will be a deceitful counterfeit.

Will also be a powerful delusion to non-believers as well, such as atheists, because they are always looking for "physical facts".

Consider this hypothetically ... think of a person of whom you have known .... that has died ... and that you absolutely have no doubt they will be saved .... and then ... this "entity" claiming to god, performing mighty miracles, fire from the sky .... etc .... appears to raise up this person .... are you inclined to believe it? Do you believe Christ will reign on earth for the 1,000 years? If so, why wouldn't you believe it?

For every truth in Gods word satan has a deceptive counterfeit.

2 Thessalonians 2:9

that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders.

People take the word "deceived" too lightly ... in order to be deceived, something has to be so, so close to the truth that it is almost undetectable (not able to be detected).

Genesis 3:1

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat of any tree in the garden?’

He's going to deceivingly distort the word of god (just like in Genesis) ... along with great miracles, signs and wonders, in such a way it's virtually undetectable.

Matthew 24:24
New International Version
For false messiahs (anti-christ) and false prophets (Revelation 13:11) will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

These deceptions have been going on and are going on now .... and will continue to go on ... deceptive teachings slowly but surely, creeping into the churches ... undetected.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.

Everyone needs to diligently study His Word for themselves.

We don't have to have "specific details", we need to really get a grasp on what "deception" means ... and the Lord says .... EVERY deception possible will be used by satan (angel of light).

Revelation 12:9
New Living Translation
This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.

Revealing Times · Sep 18, 2019

Dale said:
3 One of its [the Beast's] heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth followed the beast with wonder. --Revelation 13:3 RSV

Many people see Revelation 13:3 as a prophecy that some world leader will be killed, maybe shot in the head, and then be resurrected. This leader will go on to become the individual Beast or Antichrist of Revelation.

Should we look for an event like this? Will this be a crucial clue in the rise of a modern antichrist?

No one will be raised from the dead, that comes from people not understanding what is being resurrected, this is why people actually believe the RCC is a 2000 some odd year beast, when its not, others think that Islam is the Beast or the Ottoman Empire etc. etc. This isn't complicated, people just make it complicated..

We have a 7 HEADED BEAST.....Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome who received the MORTAL WOUND....remember, its the 7 HEADED Beast, which are these 6 Nations AND the coming Anti-Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

So when the Church was born, Jesus told Peter that the gates of hell will not prevail against my Church, so the Beast was going to be out of business until the Church is taken home {Rapture} and then and ONLY THEN can the Beast be reborn. This particular Beast has to rule or DOMINATE like an Animal over the Mediterranean Sea Region/Israel, so only when a Nation/MAN conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region, with Israel alive again and the Church in heaven can the Beast once again arise {a nation/MAN that rules Israel, all of North Africa and thus the Mediterranean Sea Region}. When that happens BOOM the Dead Beast is REBORN !! Look at it like this.

Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard {Greece}, and his feet were as the feet of a bear{Persia}, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion{Babylon}: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death{Rome/Wounded Beast dies or is SUBMERGED}; and his deadly wound was healed {Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem and the Mediterranean Sea Region and THE BEAST is alive again or HEALED}: and all the world wondered after the beast.

It's a 7 Headed Beast with a Head Wound, the 7th Head can't be wounded because him conquering the Region/Jerusalem is what HEALS the Wound of Rome, the 7 Headed Beast lives again METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING, of course.

Douggg · Sep 18, 2019

Revealing Times said:
We have a 7 HEADED BEAST.....Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome who received the MORTAL WOUND....remember, it the 7 HEADED Beast which are these 6 Nations AND the coming Anti-Christ.

If the 7 heads are kingdoms (and not kings), then why do the heads have crowns in Revelation 12, and not in Revelation 13?

Revealing Times · Sep 18, 2019

Douggg said:
If the 7 heads are kingdoms (and not kings), then why do the heads have crowns in Revelation 12, and not in Revelation 13?

I think I have explained this here before. Its all about the designation of WHO is being spoken about.

1. Rev. 12, the Beast is Satan the Dragon thus the Crowns are over the KINGDOMS because as the devil told Jesus in Luke 4, ALL these Kingdoms are his to do as he so wills with.

2. Rev. 12 is about the Anti-Christ Beast, thus the Crowns are on the 10 Horns {Kings} who freely gave their powers unto him. Satan is over the 7 Head who is the Anti-Christ right ? The very next verse I left off is THIS: Rev. 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: So Satan o/is over all the Worldly Kingdoms, of course, and he has given the Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horn his power and he is over the 10 Kings.

3. The Scarlet Colored Beast has NO CROWNS thus he is Apollyon.

Dale · Sep 19, 2019

Douggg said:
2Thessalonians2:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The person will go into the temple sit, claim to have achieved God-hood. Apparently, at the time he will do miracles to support his claim. There is a unspecified amount of time that passes between his initial claim and him being killed. The "lie" is his claim.

The delusion will be that God brings him back to life, in Isaiah 14:18-20. Plus, we don't know behind the scenes interaction between God and Satan over the matter, like in Job, when Satan was allowed to do certain things to Job, but Job wasn't told the why everything bad was happening to him

Dougg,

I apologize for the delay in replying.

Before I get into specifics, let me comment on the kind of thought I've seen on the end times.

Revelation mentions locusts as the "first woe." What does this mean?

The most obvious meaning is that swarms of locusts are insects eating up the food supply. That's what they were in the ancient world, after all. To most of the people I've had an exchange of opinions with, the locusts simply can't be insects, not even ravenous insects. Too obvious, dull, boring, uninteresting.

Because of the way these locusts are described, some have wondered if they are tanks, helicopters, or possibly submarines or submersible tanks. Again, to most of the people I have exchanged opinions with, this is slightly more interesting than locusts as insects, but still dull, boring and uninteresting.

So what do they think locusts are? I'm told that they must be hordes of demons crawling out of hell, an army of demons. This is the view of the Left Behind books. Of course, the people who take this seriously believe that they will be raptured off the earth so they won't be here anyway.

Many of those talking about eschatology these days aren't interested in any interpretation unless it sounds like it came right out of a horror movie. They don't interpret in terms of things known to exist.

It seems to me that we need to start with things known to exist and processes known to exist. This is one of the things that concerns me about your notion that God will give a special resurrection to the most evil man alive. You insist on something that would be a complete break with the past. God didn't give an instant resurrection to any of the Apostles, not to any of the Christian saints and martyrs of the ancient world or to any who have lived since.

It makes no sense to automatically prefer the most bizarre interpretation. This isn't the way to interpret the Bible, or anything else.

Dale · Sep 19, 2019

eleos1954 said:
correct .... and why are they easily deceived? ... because they don't believe the dead are really dead.
If someone thinks they "see" a dead loved one, and they actually speak to them .... they will be fooled. Most everyone (christians) are expecting the resurrection ... it will be a deceitful counterfeit.

Will also be a powerful delusion to non-believers as well, such as atheists, because they are always looking for "physical facts".

Consider this hypothetically ... think of a person of whom you have known .... that has died ... and that you absolutely have no doubt they will be saved .... and then ... this "entity" claiming to god, performing mighty miracles, fire from the sky .... etc .... appears to raise up this person .... are you inclined to believe it? Do you believe Christ will reign on earth for the 1,000 years? If so, why wouldn't you believe it?

For every truth in Gods word satan has a deceptive counterfeit.

2 Thessalonians 2:9

that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders.

People take the word "deceived" too lightly ... in order to be deceived, something has to be so, so close to the truth that it is almost undetectable (not able to be detected).

Genesis 3:1

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat of any tree in the garden?’

He's going to deceivingly distort the word of god (just like in Genesis) ... along with great miracles, signs and wonders, in such a way it's virtually undetectable.

Matthew 24:24
New International Version
For false messiahs (anti-christ) and false prophets (Revelation 13:11) will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

These deceptions have been going on and are going on now .... and will continue to go on ... deceptive teachings slowly but surely, creeping into the churches ... undetected.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.

Everyone needs to diligently study His Word for themselves.

We don't have to have "specific details", we need to really get a grasp on what "deception" means ... and the Lord says .... EVERY deception possible will be used by satan (angel of light).

Revelation 12:9
New Living Translation
This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.

Eleos,

Thanks for your reply.

Eleos in post #24: "For every truth in Gods word satan has a deceptive counterfeit."

I'm not sure this is true. There is certainly no cause to base our view of the end times on this notion.

Douggg · Sep 19, 2019

Revealing Times said:
1. Rev. 12, the Beast is Satan the Dragon thus the Crowns are over the KINGDOMS because as the devil told Jesus in Luke 4, ALL these Kingdoms are his to do as he so wills with.

Well, you are claiming that the 7 heads are 7 kingdoms. But the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian empires did not exist at the time of Jesus. The Greek empire had been phased out and the Roman Empire was in power at the time of Jesus.

In addition, in Revelation 17, none of the heads had crowns, nor any of the horns. But the Roman Empire was in place, as the sixth king was ruling then in Revelation 17:10.

Revealing Times said:
2. Rev. 12 is about the Anti-Christ Beast, thus the Crowns are on the 10 Horns {Kings} who freely gave their powers unto him. Satan is over the 7 Head who is the Anti-Christ right ? The very next verse I left off is THIS: Rev. 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: So Satan o/is over all the Worldly Kingdoms, of course, and he has given the Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horn his power and he is over the 10 Kings.

In Revelation 12 the ten horns don't have their crowns. Maybe you got mixed up and meant to say Revelation 13?

Rev. 13:4

Click to expand...

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: So Satan o/is over all the Worldly Kingdoms,

But there are no crowns on the heads in Revelation 13.

So Satan o/is over all the Worldly Kingdoms, of course, and he has given the Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horn his power and he is over the 10 Kings.

It appears as though you are claiming that because Satan has given his power to the beast, there are no crowns on the heads, in Revelation 13. But Satan has retained power over the ten kings, as they have their crowns?

To me, that doesn't make sense because the beast (formerly the little horn) is over the ten kings.

Douggg · Sep 19, 2019

Dale said:
So what do they think locusts are? I'm told that they must be hordes of demons crawling out of hell, an army of demons. This is the view of the Left Behind books. Of course, the people who take this seriously believe that they will be raptured off the earth so they won't be here anyway.

I think the flesh tormenting locust are some dna level tampering with
locust, by the fallen angels, who in my opinion were responsible for the violent world of T-Rex and the like in a primordial world of the dinosaurs, that as a result, God destroyed all life turning the planet lifeless and void of any geographical form.

The locust may be demon possessed, as well. I don't know.

Dale said:
This is one of the things that concerns me about your notion that God will give a special resurrection to the most evil man alive. You insist on something that would be a complete break with the past. God didn't give an instant resurrection to any of the Apostles, not to any of the Christian saints and martyrs of the ancient world or to any who have lived since.

The Apostles will be resurrected to eternal life.

Differently, the revealed man of sin will be brought back to life to become the beast, to be cast alive into the lake of fire. I prefer to say brought back to life, as that has been done before in the case of Lazarus.

An image will be made of the beast, and the image will come alive and speak. So that does not lend itself to the interpretation of the beast being a nation, like Germany.

Also the number of the name of the beast is the number of a man.

Revealing Times · Sep 19, 2019

Douggg said:
Well, you are claiming that the 7 heads are 7 kingdoms. But the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian empires did not exist at the time of Jesus. The Greek empire had been phased out and the Roman Empire was in power at the time of Jesus.

In addition, in Revelation 17, none of the heads had crowns, nor any of the horns. But the Roman Empire was in place, as the sixth king was ruling then in Revelation 17:10.

The 7 Heads represents ALL THE BEASTS over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region up until the Church age.............AND then after the Church Age.

Rev. 17 is about Apollyon, not Satan the Dragon BEAST nor the Anti-Christ Beast. You realize more than one entity can BEAST OVER a Region right ? The Dragon rules all Darkness, he gives the Anti-Christ his power, thus there is TWO BEASTS there. Apollyon is another Beast, he was ASSIGNED the Region by Satan !!

Douggg said:
In Revelation 12 the ten horns don't have their crowns. Maybe you got mixed up and meant to say Revelation 13?

That's evident, since I pointed out three chapters.

Douggg said:
But there are no crowns on the heads in Revelation 13.

Crowns on the Heads {Kingdoms} in Rev. 12 SIGNIFIES Satan as the Beast Dragon. Crowns on the Horns in Rev. 13 SIGNIFY its the Man Beast/Little Horn that being designated/spoken about. NO CROWNS in Rev. 17 SIGNIFY it's Apollyon.

Douggg said:
It appears as though you are claiming that because Satan has given his power to the beast, there are no crowns on the heads, in Revelation 13. But Satan has retained power over the ten kings, as they have their crowns?

To me, that doesn't make sense because the beast (formerly the little horn) is over the ten kings.

Hey, you can't count the Two-witnesses time frame on earth correctly, I don't expect you to get this complex problem.........WINK, WINK..... :liturgy:

Douggg · Sep 19, 2019

Revealing Times said:
The 7 Heads represents ALL THE BEASTS over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region up until the Church age.............AND then after the Church Age.

Based on what?

Those kingdoms you are claiming as the heads were sequential, not concurrent, because the territories they were over - was in the large part the same land mass.

So how are they going to be concurrently ruling kingdoms, after the church age, when they were sequential before?

Revealing Times said:
Rev. 17 is about Apollyon, not Satan the Dragon BEAST nor the Anti-Christ Beast. You realize more than one entity can BEAST OVER a Region right ? The Dragon rules all Darkness, he gives the Anti-Christ his power, thus there is TWO BEASTS there. Apollyon is another Beast, he was ASSIGNED the Region by Satan !!

In Revelation 17:8a, the beast was, and is not. Which is an indication that he was once alive but is now dead. Apollyon is an angel, thus had not died. It is not talking about Apollyon.

Revelation 17:8a “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

RT, it is telling who the beast in the bottomless pit is in Revelation 12.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The "beast" in the bottomless pit was in the garden of eden, used by Satan.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The beast in the bottomless pit is the disembodied spirit of original garden of eden beast that lied that men could become as gods, and not die.

What message do you think the beast in Revelation 13 is going to be saying that the whole world worships him - except the saints?

eleos1954 · Sep 19, 2019

Dale said:
Eleos,

Thanks for your reply.

Eleos in post #24: "For every truth in Gods word satan has a deceptive counterfeit."

I'm not sure this is true. There is certainly no cause to base our view of the end times on this notion.

Deception .... satan is the great deceiver.

Something so so close to the truth that it is easily mistaken for the truth.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 13:13-14
It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives (not forceful, not easily detectable) those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

Genesis 3:1
New International Version
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Did God really say? or how about ... in the Word of God doesn't it say?

Hypothetical example: Fake resurrection.

Doesn't the word of God say ... there would be a resurrection as His return? Look, here is your dead mother and she is speaking to you. Look at all these people who died and are now alive and speaking.

Oh yeah ... the deceptions will be by twisting the Word of God in such a way many many will be fooled/deceived.

Dale · Sep 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Could it be the "great city" destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, which was reconstituted as part of a nation by that godless organization known as the United Nations during 1948?

How many times have you heard preachers describe this "miraculous" event, in which a nation came back from the dead?

That nation's source of truth is the "Babylonian" Talmud, which derives its name from the city of "Babylon".

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (Why is it fallen twice?)

Is this the same "great city" found in the verse below?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Is the identity of that city found in the last few words of the verse above, as the place where our Lord was crucified?

.

BABerean: "Could it be the "great city" destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, which was reconstituted as part of a nation by that godless organization known as the United Nations during 1948?"

You are assuming that Jerusalem, ancient Israel, the Roman province of Judea and the modern State of Israel are the same. They are not. Putting down the United Nations is unhelpful and I'm not sure why you want to label the UN as "godless." You might as well label the Geneva Convention as "godless."

Jews moved to Palestine from Europe in the early 20th century, founding Jewish towns, with the intent of eventually founding a new Israel. This happened long before there was a United Nations.

Jerusalem did not cease to exist when a Roman army destroyed the Temple, the city walls, and many other structures in 70 AD. Jews continued to live there. There has never been a time there were not Jews living in Jerusalem and in what is now the State of Israel.

I don't see modern Israel as part of the Beast in Revelation. The multi-headed Beast is clearly an alliance of countries, or nations. Israel is surrounded by enemies.

BABerean: "How many times have you heard preachers describe this "miraculous" event, in which a nation came back from the dead?"

I've never heard a minister mention it.

BABerean: "That nation's source of truth is the "Babylonian" Talmud, which derives its name from the city of "Babylon"."

You are assuming that the modern State of Israel is a religious state. It is not. Is is a mostly secular state with some religious laws.

There are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. The name Babylonian Talmud comes about because it was developed by Rabbis of the Jewish community living in what is now Iraq.

Here is an article on the two Talmuds.

Tale of Two Talmuds: Jerusalem and Babylonian

The two versions of the Talmud developed simultaneously in the two major Jewish communities of the rabbinic era.

BY RABBI JILL JACOBS

Tale of Two Talmuds: Jerusalem and Babylonian | My Jewish Learning

Dale · Sep 19, 2019

eleos1954 said:
correct .... and why are they easily deceived? ... because they don't believe the dead are really dead.
If someone thinks they "see" a dead loved one, and they actually speak to them .... they will be fooled. Most everyone (christians) are expecting the resurrection ... it will be a deceitful counterfeit.

Will also be a powerful delusion to non-believers as well, such as atheists, because they are always looking for "physical facts".

Consider this hypothetically ... think of a person of whom you have known .... that has died ... and that you absolutely have no doubt they will be saved .... and then ... this "entity" claiming to god, performing mighty miracles, fire from the sky .... etc .... appears to raise up this person .... are you inclined to believe it? Do you believe Christ will reign on earth for the 1,000 years? If so, why wouldn't you believe it?

For every truth in Gods word satan has a deceptive counterfeit.

2 Thessalonians 2:9

that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders.

People take the word "deceived" too lightly ... in order to be deceived, something has to be so, so close to the truth that it is almost undetectable (not able to be detected).

Genesis 3:1

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat of any tree in the garden?’

He's going to deceivingly distort the word of god (just like in Genesis) ... along with great miracles, signs and wonders, in such a way it's virtually undetectable.

Matthew 24:24
New International Version
For false messiahs (anti-christ) and false prophets (Revelation 13:11) will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

These deceptions have been going on and are going on now .... and will continue to go on ... deceptive teachings slowly but surely, creeping into the churches ... undetected.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.

Everyone needs to diligently study His Word for themselves.

We don't have to have "specific details", we need to really get a grasp on what "deception" means ... and the Lord says .... EVERY deception possible will be used by satan (angel of light).

Revelation 12:9
New Living Translation
This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.

Eleos in post #24: "These deceptions have been going on and are going on now .... and will continue to go on ... deceptive teachings slowly but surely, creeping into the churches ... undetected."

You are saying that the source of the world's spiritual decline is bad doctrine in the churches. It looks like the greater problem is that society increasingly does not care what the churches teach. Society regards the churches as irrelevant.

BABerean2 · Sep 19, 2019

Dale said:
Putting down the United Nations is unhelpful and I'm not sure why you want to label the UN as "godless."

Maybe it is because the United Nations was created as an attempt at world government.

Communist Alger Hiss was instrumental in creating the organization.

Most of the people in the United States are clueless about the agenda found in the video below, where the woman who almost became president thanks former CBS newsman Walter Cronkite for his efforts to bring about world government.

.

Dale · Sep 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Maybe it is because the United Nations was created as an attempt at world government.

Communist Alger Hiss was instrumental in creating the organization.

Most of the people in the United States are clueless about the agenda found in the video below, where the woman who almost became president thanks former CBS newsman Walter Cronkite for his efforts to bring about world government.

.

The United Nations was chartered in an attempt to stop war.

Harold Stassen, a leading Republican at the time, was at the table when the UN was chartered.

Who produced this video? It's on Youtube but that doesn't tell me anything.

BABerean2 · Sep 20, 2019

Dale said:
Who produced this video? It's on Youtube but that doesn't tell me anything.

The video was a meeting of the World Federalist Association. It is a video you will never see on CBS News, or the History Channel, or any of the other brain-washing programs.

If you think the United Nations was charted to stop war, you are ignoring what the Bible says about Global government.

Pastor Chuck Baldwin on the New World Order

.

eleos1954 · Sep 20, 2019

Dale said:
Eleos in post #24: "These deceptions have been going on and are going on now .... and will continue to go on ... deceptive teachings slowly but surely, creeping into the churches ... undetected."

You are saying that the source of the world's spiritual decline is bad doctrine in the churches. It looks like the greater problem is that society increasingly does not care what the churches teach. Society regards the churches as irrelevant.

It's both ... but what we know is that it IS a spiritual war .... and the anti-christ of end times will be from (satan working) within an apostate church system (mother) with many other apostate churches/religions (christian or not) uniting with that church system (becoming prostitutes) all all symbolize Babylon (confusion), along with a government entity joining with them. (a three-fold union)

Revelation 17:5

5On her forehead a mysterious name was written:

BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER (a main church system) OF PROSTITUTES (other religious churches/systems that join with her)
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH (other individuals on earth who are lost)

Gods children are scattered about all over the place in and out of the church systems ... it boils down to the individual and who they will worship .... and many will be misled through false teachings through various church systems. Deceived.

Yes, it's been going on "forever", but in future there will be a mass unification (coalition) of many religious systems.

Matthew 24:15
“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Revelation 18:4

Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her (apostasy of church systems), my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;

25:31–46: "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations (made up of sheep and goats) will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Will an Antichrist Resurrect from the Dead?? Rev 13:3

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