Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

I would say yes and no because firstly, no one is good but God and secondly, your good deeds can never save you. I've seen a lot of people, protestants in particular say, "we're saved by grace alone through faith alone." What they are saying is correct. God coming in the person of Jesus and dying for our sins when we didn't deserve it is grace and us believing in that finished work is faith.

However, what about that passage in James that says faith without works is dead? That's also correct, faith without good works can mean that a person's faith (in the finished work of Christ) isn't genuine. Good works validate faith (the thing that ultimately saves you) as genuine. A person that truly has faith will produce good works if they don't I would be concerned for them and they need to question if their faith is genuine. So yes, you need to produce good works but no that doesn't save you. For those that say yes alone that would mean that Jesus didn't need to come and die and you could have saved yourself. And for those that say no alone, I think you need to check if your faith is genuine because if you truly have faith you would produce good works.

zoidar said:

Matthew 25:14-30

The Parable of the Talents

14“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.e You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Luke 12
41Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?” 42And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Click to expand...

Read the passages correctly. These are descriptions of unbelievers, not believers.

Daniel C said:

Dead faith Is still saved.

Click to expand...

Interesting. However, how can dead faith—the thing that you need to be save, still save you if it's dead?

Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

In John 15 Jesus states that those who abide in him will bear much fruit, but those who do not abide will be cast off by the Father into the fire.

What clearer description does anyone need of a person who does not do and loses their reward?

Before anyone says anything, to abide in Christ means you must be in Christ. An unbeliever cannot abide, so when Jesus says in John 15:6 that if we do not abide, it denotes having once been in Him.

Obviously, I voted yes.

No one here is saying works save a person. That's always the default argument of the grace crowd. How dare you mention works? Scripture states a person's faith is validated by their works. Jesus, Paul, James, and John all said it. This isn't a situation where if you fail once then that's it.

We are talking about a person who says they are a Christian, but nothing about how they live their life states such. It's an empty confession. Words without substance. Even if a person has works without faith it accomplishes nothing.

Jesus said there will be many who say Lord Lord and he will turn around and state I NEVER KNEW YOU, depart from me. That statement works both ways.

zoidar said:

Luke 12
And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Click to expand...

There will be a lot of surprised people in the end. . It's not how good of a servant you are and it's not how good of a person you are.... It's all boiled down to "did you believe in Christ and repent from your sins"

Some of the kindest nicest generous people deny Christ.

Christ will not force them to live with Him forever since they don't want to.

zoidar said:

Luke 12
And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Click to expand...

Quote:
While it is true that faith alone justifies, this does not mean that faith is ever alone in the justified person. Though faith may be “the alone instrument of justification,” it is “not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love” (WCF 11.2).

Though the grace of free justification is received by the empty hand of faith alone, it may never be severed from the grace of sanctification. Christ is not given to believers for righteousness without also being given to them for sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30). Whenever Christ indwells the hearts of believers, He always begins to renew them in the way of obedience to His law. In the fullness of His office as mediator, Christ is not only a priest, whose atoning sacrifice and continual intercession assure believers of their acceptance with God, but also a king, who rules in the hearts of His people by His Spirit and Word.

Faith and Works by Cornelis Venema

Christ is Lord said:

Interesting. However, how can dead faith—the thing that you need to be save, still save you if it's dead?

Click to expand...

The Bible talks about people who are ''lost'' and those are the people who are not in Christ.

James acknowledges the faith part but I think he's saying to his audience that if your behavior is not Christ-like how can you tell if you are saved or not. A faith that saves bears good fruit but that verse doesn't say anything about salvation loss after being saved.

Toro said:

No.

However, IF you are truly saved... you will become a good servant. (By the Spirit AND by His strength)
Philippians 1:6

Faith, without works is dead because there is no fruit. A branch that does not produce fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire.

IF we abide in Christ and Christ in us, we will produce fruit (works) because we, being branches grafted into the tree, will be nourished by the tree and fruit will come. NOT because we (the branches) produced the wirks (fruit) but just as you will know a tree by its fruit, so to will you know if the branch (person) is attatched to the tree (Jesus).

The branch doesnt produce the fruit, the branch is nothing more than the means that the tree brought fruit into the world. The branch did nothing, it simply has a helpless dependency on tge tree to do anything.

IF a branch does not produce fruit... is the branch even living? IF a branch is seperate from tge tree does it produce anything on its own strength, it cant even save itself.

WORKS do not save, but works ARE a by product of our salvation. Its a sign of our connection to Jesus.... but, just as a tree does not produce fruit over night, these works will also take time, growth in the Lord.

Click to expand...

I pruned peach trees in SC one late winter when orchards were pruned before the trees blossomed and sprouted leaves. A tree will put out more branches than it needs. One branch will shade out another branch so both of them will not get enough sun. The tree needs sunlight to produce peaches and for growth. I was trained to keep what appeared to be a healthier, better formed branch and cut the less productive branch. I took out the small ones in the center totally shaded out by other branches. If a stunted branch appeared to encroach on a better formed branch, I cut it. The boss used to inspect a pruner’s work and made him return to thin out more branches if he left the tree with a tangled mess of branches remaining.

☦Marius☦ said:

James 2:14–26 (ESV):

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Click to expand...

Amen

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Toro said:

No.

However, IF you are truly saved... you will become a good servant. (By the Spirit AND by His strength)
Philippians 1:6

Faith, without works is dead because there is no fruit. A branch that does not produce fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire.

IF we abide in Christ and Christ in us, we will produce fruit (works) because we, being branches grafted into the tree, will be nourished by the tree and fruit will come. NOT because we (the branches) produced the wirks (fruit) but just as you will know a tree by its fruit, so to will you know if the branch (person) is attatched to the tree (Jesus).

The branch doesnt produce the fruit, the branch is nothing more than the means that the tree brought fruit into the world. The branch did nothing, it simply has a helpless dependency on tge tree to do anything.

IF a branch does not produce fruit... is the branch even living? IF a branch is seperate from tge tree does it produce anything on its own strength, it cant even save itself.

WORKS do not save, but works ARE a by product of our salvation. Its a sign of our connection to Jesus.... but, just as a tree does not produce fruit over night, these works will also take time, growth in the Lord.

Click to expand...

The message given in John 15 was given to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles who were undoubtedly believers who were saved and yet Jesus still felt it was necessary to tell them in verse 4 “Abide in Me and I in you for apart from Me you can do nothing. Evidently it is possible for true believers to fail to abide (stay, remain, continue) in Christ if they so choose.

Daniel C said:

I'm sorry but none of these verses you quoted actually state a person who is born again can actually lose their salvation.

We see in the Bible about the Holy Spirit entering and indwelling into saved people,causing a regeneration or rebirth but there's no talk about the spirit exit after a person has accepted Christ,causing a ''degeneration'' of some sort. Why is that?

I'm not that good at dissecting posts so if you want a particular verse addressed put forward a couple that best supports your belief and i'll try to deal with that.

Click to expand...

The Holy Spirit does not have to leave an individual in order for them to not receive eternal life. We can grieve the Holy Spirit.

John 15:2, John 15:6, and Romans 11:17-23 all say that believers can lose their salvation. 2 Timothy 2:12 Paul includes himself as being capable of denying Christ and Christ denying him which results in loss of salvation if not repented.

BNR32FAN said:

The Holy Spirit does not have to leave an individual in order for them to not receive eternal life. We can grieve the Holy Spirit.

John 15:2, John 15:6, and Romans 11:17-23 all say that believers can lose their salvation. 2 Timothy 2:12 Paul includes himself as being capable of denying Christ and Christ denying him which results in loss of salvation if not repented.

Click to expand...

I disagree to ''grieve the Holy Spirit'' can lose salvation. That is your interpretation and wording.

''Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.''

So this verse about bearing no fruit has no mention about salvation loss,only disappoint about lack of productivity.


''If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.''

To ''abide'' in Christ is to dwell or believe in Christ. Of course non-believers are condemned,again not a loss of salvation but referring to the unsaved who are not abiding in Christ.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

In Pauls letter the people who were ''broken off'' did so because of the lack of faith. It was never there to begin with-they probably trusted in self-works for salvation.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Denying Christ in this context is rejecting him as Savior=unsaved. The genuine believers who actually see Christ as their savior call out to him in faith and are saved,eternally.

Daniel C said:

So this verse about bearing no fruit has no mention about salvation loss,only disappoint about lack of productivity.

Click to expand...

The words “taketh away” means to cut off or remove from the vine which is Christ. I don’t have time to post it right now but please take a look at the Strong’s Concordance definition and look at the definition that pertains to something that is attached to anything.

Daniel C said:

To ''abide'' in Christ is to dwell or believe in Christ. Of course non-believers are condemned,again not a loss of salvation but referring to the unsaved who are not abiding in Christ.

Click to expand...

The word abide means to stay, remain, or continue.

BNR32FAN said:

The words “taketh away” means to cut off or remove from the vine which is Christ. I don’t have time to post it right now but please take a look at the Strong’s Concordance definition and look at the definition that pertains to something that is attached to anything.

Click to expand...

Well I put the scipture up so,I won't repeat.

Another point is how does a person bear good fruit?

Daniel C said:

In Pauls letter the people who were ''broken off'' did so because of the lack of faith. It was never there to begin with-they probably trusted in self-works for salvation.

Click to expand...

Who grafted in these branches? Does God graft branches into Christ that do not believe? Why would He graft branches into Christ who don’t believe only to cut them off not unbelief?

BNR32FAN said:

The words “taketh away” means to cut off or remove from the vine which is Christ. I don’t have time to post it right now but please take a look at the Strong’s Concordance definition and look at the definition that pertains to something that is attached to anything.

Click to expand...

And if you're a word for word literalist with this parable,tell me:

Is Jesus a vine?

Daniel C said:

Well I put the scipture up so,I won't repeat.

Another point is how does a person bear good fruit?

Click to expand...

The branch is attached to the vine. Please look at the definition of the Greek word used.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away

G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

Daniel C said:

And if you're a word for word literalist with this parable,tell me:

Is Jesus a vine?

Click to expand...

Yes He said so in verse 1