Our God The Consuming Fire

Lazarus Short said:

"4. I am the Good Shepherd." mkgal1, it is too often forgotten that Jesus, the Good Shepherd depicted Himself as One who would leave the 99 and search for the one lost sheep. Will He do any less for us?

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Excellent point.

It's an interesting study to learn about shepherds in the wilderness. David referred to his time as a shepherd (as a young boy!) fighting off bears and lions in order to protect his flock. It's a beautiful and powerful analogy for God to be called the Good Shepherd.

FineLinen said: ↑
Our God is a consuming Fire
Fire Is A Beneficent Agent
How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Hello dear friend.
You create the most thought provoking threads.
The event of the burning bush comes to mind [I show the movie version at bottom]

Exodus 3:2
And a Messenger of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from midst of a bush.
And he is looking, and behold! the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

Deu 4:36
“Out of heaven He let you hear His voice, that He might instruct you;
on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire.

Eze 22:31
“Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them;
I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath;
and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord GOD.
==============
My patron saint, Stephen, quoted from that verse in Exodus before he was stoned. [that is also when Saint Saul/Paul appeared:
Stoning of Stephen against the Law

Acts 7:
1 Then the high priest said, “Are these things so?”
2 And he said, “Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran,
30 “And when forty years had passed, a Messenger of LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai.
35 “This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge? is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush.
54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed upon him with their teeth.
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
58 and they dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. His accusers took off their coats and laid them at the feet of a young man named Saul

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

According to Hebrews we are also a "flame of fire"

Hebrews 1:7 And toward indeed to the Messengers He is saying 'Who is making His Messengers winds<4151> and His ministers a flame of fire '

Revelation 2:18
‘And to the Messenger of the assembly in Thyatira write! These things saith the Son of the God, Who is having His eyes as a flame of fire, and His feet like to burnished bronze<5474>;
Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

Revelation 11:5
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours<2719> their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

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mkgal1 said:

My goodness! You're tracking on the same wave length as me. I just got back from Bible study and got on here to post this same verse (because it came up in our study this morning - and this thread came to mind). We also talked about the rule of first mention used in interpreting biblical text - and how this was the first time God's presence was described as fire (so this sets the precedent for how we interpret all remaining verses about God's fire). It is NOT destructive!

Also......in the same recorded event, we learn God's character (I Am). Jesus gave us 7 "I am" statements:

1. 
   
   
   • I am the bread of life. (John 6:35)
   • I am the light of the world. (John 8:12)
   • I am the door. (John 10:9)
   • I am the Good Shepherd. (John 10:11)
   • I am the resurrection and the Life. (John 11:25-26)
   • I am the Way the Truth and the Life. (John 14:6)
   • I am the Vine. (John 15:5).

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Hello mkgal......tis nice to be of one mind.

Also......in the same recorded event, we learn God's character (I Am). Jesus gave us 7 "I am" statements:

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I actually did a study on the great "I AM" sometime back and I came across this verse in John that intrigued me, and that was the event of Judas confronting Jesus in the Garden after the Last Supper:

Why did Judas and others draw back and fall on the ground when Jesus said "I AM"? Most profound....

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

1473. ego eg-o' a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):--I, me.
G1473 matches the Greek ἐγώ (egō), which occurs 370 times in 334
1510. eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb;
I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was
G1510 matches the Greek εἰμί (eimi), which occurs 146 times in 137 verses

Jhn 18:
5 They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
Jesus said to them, “I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510>.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them.
6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that .“I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510>
Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,”
9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

And this great verse which got the Jews scratching their heads, once again........

John 8:
57 Said then the Judeans towards Him, "Fifty years not as-yet thou are having and Abraham Thou has seen?'

58 Jesus said to them "Verily, verily, I am saying to ye,
before Abraham's to be becoming/generated/genesqai <1096> (5635) -- “I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510>;"

And of course, He is the great I AM in Revelation.....

They are used together in only 4 verses of Revelation, all with Jesus, the great I AM:

Revelation Chapter 1 Verses

Reve 1:8
I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510> to a*** kai to w a..................

Reve 1:17
And when I saw him, I did fall at his feet as dead, and he placed his right hand upon me, saying to me, 'Be not afraid; I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510> the First and the Last,

Reve 2:23
and her children I will kill in death,
and know shall all the assemblies that I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510> He who is searching reins and hearts; and I will give to you -- to each -- according to your works.

Reve 22:16
'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies;
I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510> the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!




I will put the occurrences of those 2 words together in these verse in the next post..........

Matthew 5 times
Mark 4 times
Luke 4 times
John approx 14 times [ about a dozen of them separated by a another word]

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Lazarus Short said:

OK, here is a direct quote:

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is First Corinthians 3:11-15. I gave the gist of it - the script if you will. Did I really ad-lib? Now, understand well:

"...he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Does it yet dawn on you that we are saved, not damned, by fire? If saved by fire, the fire MUST be Godfire, not Hellfire.

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Yes you do ad -lib --waxing theoretically about goats and sheep as you did had absolutely NOTHING to do with what the scripture stated.

These verses your cited are not speaking of hell. It is talking about the Judgment Seat of Christ that every believer will face. Those verses Only refers to those who are saved, i.e. the believers - aka the born-again Christians will face the judgment seat of Christ where our works shall be judged. This is why it says "everyman's work shall be made manifest ( it shall be revealed by GOD's fire) if it is worthless it shall be burned up, the good works shall remain & is compared to gold, silver , precious stone. Christians will receive rewards according to their works. Some will have earned none and only have the salvation but will earn no rewards , i.e. no crowns.

Every fire in the Bible, and I admit that I am still looking at all of them, is either a natural fire or a Godfire, never Hellfire. They have merely been designated so by the Hell theorists who put theology before translation and tweaked the text accordingly. The Bible versions without the foreign word "Hell" witness against you.

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Pedra said:

Realize you are a human ad-libing -- I prefer to follow what The Bible AKA the Word of God teaches.
You prefer the heretical translations that are changing the meaning of Word of God.

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I think you're misunderstanding your Bible translation, Pedra.

The Bible manuscripts were in ancient Hebrew and Greek. As far as I know, you are NOT reading ancient Hebrew and Greek (or else your Bible wouldn't have the word "hell" in the first place). It's wise to look at the original words.....the Hebrew culture and practices....and the context before you get dogmatic about beliefs (if ever you're to get dogmatic). If any translations are "changing the meaning of the Word of God" that would be the modern translations that include the word "hell" (as that was never in the original manuscripts).

This is one passage that people often use to support their damnation theory:

The original word was:
Tartarus
Used only one time in the NT (as far as I know). This word comes from Greek/Roman/Egyptian mythology. In Greek mythology it was the deepest place in which the gods of Olympus locked up the Titans as punishment. Peter mentions it as a place where evil spirits were bound. It is not hell.

The apostle Peter wrote that:

mkgal1 said:

I think you're misunderstanding your Bible translation, Pedra.

The Bible manuscripts were in Hebrew and Greek......as far as I know, you are NOT reading ancient Hebrew and Greek (or else your Bible wouldn't have the word "hell" in the first place). It's wise to look at the original words.....the Hebrew culture and practices....and the context before you get dogmatic about beliefs (if ever you're to get dogmatic).

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Sorry but you have consistently not shown the accurate handling of the word of truth. You seem in error even in understanding the basic Christian doctrines like the gospel of Jesus and the doctrine of salvation.
In fact, I am the one stated several times in order to understand the meaning of verses we must read in context of the verse , so thanks anyway.

How is it some who claim to be followers of Jesus insist on changing what the word of God & Jesus taught about Hell?

Matthew 5:29-30
"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell."

Matthew 18:9
"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."

Matthew 5:29

"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

Matthew 10:28

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 5:22

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Matthew 7:13

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 18:8

"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire."

Matthew 25:46

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 12:32

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

Mark 9:47-48
"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
"dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

mkgal1 said:

This is one passage that people often use to support their damnation theory:

The original word was:
Tartarus
Used on one time in the NT (as far as I know). This word comes from Greek/Roman/Egyptian mythology. In Greek mythology it was the deepest place in which the gods of Olympus locked up the Titans as punishment. Peter mentions it as a place where evil spirits were bound. It is not hell.

The apostle Peter wrote that:

“God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment . . .” (2 Pet. 2:4).​

Hades/Sheol is also used in the New Testament (and the KJV translates this to hell)...but Hades is the abode of the dead - it's not hell (and it was cast into the Lake of Fire, so if a person believes that hell is eternal - then that theory goes out the window, since it's engulfed by the Lake of Fire). Hades/Sheol is not hell.

Jesus spoke of Ghenna (or the Hinnom Valley) It never describes a place called hell in an afterlife. It describes the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 where the bodies of hundreds of thousands died and were burned within the city walls and were thrown into the valley below where the worms ate their flesh. We read Josephus' account of fires of destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and the horror that it was. We saw how the fire wasn’t quenched in the sense that they couldn’t stop it from completely burning the temple and many in the city. It is not hell.


Quoting from linked article:
That leaves only the Lake of Fire. That means the only possible mention of hell in the bible is the Lake of Fire. That means that it is never mentioned from creation to the time of Jesus. It is never mentioned in Acts and neither the word hell or Lake of Fire is ever used in the teachings of Paul as a place of afterlife punishment forever. (Did Paul Promise Everlasting Punishment From the Presence of the Lord)

That means that the entire doctrine about God and how He treats people after death is only found in one book that is by nature apocalyptic and was written not even to all the churches, but to the churches in Asia Minor. Yet, it is one of the most accepted doctrines in America. Do we really think that something so important as eternal conscious torment from God is only mentioned at the end of one book? ~ The Healing of Hades and the End of the Lake of Fire! — A New Day Dawning​

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Hi mkgal......I have a thread on that.
So many threads, so little time...........

What about 2 Peter 2:4 "Tartarus"

LittleLambofJesus said:

What is this place that Peter mentions in the passage below?

2 Peter 2
1And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction, 2and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of, 3and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.

4For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved, 5and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought, 6and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set [them];
===========================
Tartarus - Wikipedia

In Greek mythology, Tartarus (/ˈtɑːrtərəs/; Ancient Greek: Τάρταρος, Tartaros)[1] is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans. Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato's Gorgias (c. 400 BC), souls are judged after death and where the wicked received divine punishment. Tartarus is also considered to be a primordial force or deity alongside entities such as the Earth, Night and Time.

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1st response

Rick Otto said:

I think it may be where Tartar sauce comes from, not sure.

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Der Alter said:

I checked out the ECF on Tartarus.

Clement of Alexandria The Stromata, Or Miscellanies. Book V. Chap. XIV
Well! Did not Plato know of the rivers of fire and the depth of the earth, and Tartarus, called by the Barbarians Gehenna, naming, as he does prophetically, Cocytus, and Acheron, and Pyriphlegethon, and introducing such corrective tortures for discipline?

Tertullian Apology 1 Chap XI
I would have you then consider whether the merits of your deities are of a kind to have raised them to the heavens, and not rather to have sunk them down into lowest depths of Tartarus, - the place which you regard, with many, as the prison-house of infernal punishments. For into this dread place are wont to be cast all who offend against filial piety, and such as are guilty of incest with sisters, and seducers of wives, and ravishers of virgins, and boy-polluters, and men of furious tempers, and murderers, and thieves, and deceivers; all, in short, who tread in the footsteps of your gods, not one of whom you can prove free from crime or vice, save by denying that they had ever a human existence.

Origen Against Celsus. Book VI Chap
Moreover, Celsus says that the diagram was “divided by a thick black line, and this line he asserted was called Gehenna, which is Tartarus.”

Hippolytus The Refutation of All Heresies. Book X Chap XXX
And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!
You shall escape the boiling flood of hell’s eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it.

The Seven Books of Arnobius Against the Heathen. Book II
30. But will he not be terrified by the punishments in Hades, of which we have heard, assuming also, as they do, many forms of torture? And who will be so senseless and ignorant of consequences, as to believe that to imperishable spirits either the darkness of Tartarus, or rivers of fire, or marshes with miry abysses, or wheels sent whirling through the air, can in any wise do harm?​

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[quote[Pedra said: ↑
God's wrath and judgment is a key element to the Gospel of grace.

mkgal1 said:

This is grace:

Luke 23:34
34 While they were nailing Jesus to the cross, He prayed over and over, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing.”

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Hello mkgal.
Yes, Jesus forgave them on the Cross, even the Jewish Rulers who ask Pilate to crucify Him.

They had about 40yrs to repent and reform before their City and Temple were demolished in 70ad.......
Gotta love the Gospel of Luke......

Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together and a little child/lad shall lead them.
Luke 2:
42 and when He became twelve years old, they having gone up to Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast,
46 And it came to pass, after three days, they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them and questioning them,
47 and all those hearing him were astonished at his understanding and answers. [Isaiah 11:6]

Fulfillment of Isaiah 62:

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 4:
17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

John 19:
11 Jesus answered "Not thou are having authority against Me, none at all, if no not to thee it hath been given from above. Therefore this the one delivering up Me to thee greater sin is having"..............
15 Those yet Cry-out "take-away! take-away! crucify! Him". Pilate is saying to them "the King of ye I shall be crucifying?" Answered the Chief-priests "not we are having a King except Caesar"
38 Pilate Is saying to Him "What is Truth"? And this saying, again He came out to the Judeans and is saying to them: "I not yet am finding fault in Him".

No mention of Gentiles here being condemned:

1 Thessalonians 2:15
who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted<1559> us, and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye Murder/efoneusate <5407> (5656) the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21
And not they repent/reform out of their Murders, nor out from their sorceries,...........

LittleLambofJesus said:

[quote[Pedra said: ↑
God's wrath and judgment is a key element to the Gospel of grace.
Hello mkgal.
Yes, Jesus forgave them on the Cross, even the Jewish Rulers who ask Pilate to crucify Him.

They had about 40yrs to repent and reform before their City and Temple were demolished in 70ad.......
Gotta love the Gospel of Luke......

Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together and a little child/lad shall lead them.
Luke 2:
42 and when He became twelve years old, they having gone up to Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast,
46 And it came to pass, after three days, they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them and questioning them,
47 and all those hearing him were astonished at his understanding and answers. [Isaiah 11:6]

Fulfillment of Isaiah 62:

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 4:
17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

John 19:
11 Jesus answered "Not thou are having authority against Me, none at all, if no not to thee it hath been given from above. Therefore this the one delivering up Me to thee greater sin is having"..............
15 Those yet Cry-out "take-away! take-away! crucify! Him". Pilate is saying to them "the King of ye I shall be crucifying?" Answered the Chief-priests "not we are having a King except Caesar"
38 Pilate Is saying to Him "What is Truth"? And this saying, again He came out to the Judeans and is saying to them: "I not yet am finding fault in Him".

No mention of Gentiles here being condemned:

1 Thessalonians 2:15
who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted<1559> us, and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye Murder/efoneusate <5407> (5656) the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21
And not they repent/reform out of their Murders, nor out from their sorceries,...........

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Sadly, you don't seem to know what Jesus came to save people from. So you seem to think the "gentiles" are sinless then? Why was it that Paul was sent to the gentiles to give them the gospel of Jesus? so they could believe with faith in Jesus & be baptized and so be saved from the judgment and not face God's wrath.
The devil attacks the word of God ,by spreading confusion about the basic Christian doctrines.

Pedra said:

Sadly, you don't seem to know what Jesus came to save people from. So you seem to think the "gentiles" are sinless then? Why was it that Paul was sent to the gentiles to give them the gospel of Jesus? so they could believe with faith in Jesus & be baptized and so be saved from the judgment and not face God's wrath.
The devil attacks the word of God ,by spreading confusion about the basic Christian doctrines.

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Not at all.
Just as God allowed the Romans to sack Jerusalem in 70ad, He also allowed Rome to be sacked about 4 centuries later.......the old adage "what goes around, comes around"

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10
But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile;

N.T. Wright - Challenging his theology

LittleLambofJesus said:

That would be my thinking.
But who were the Christian Jew' real oppressors back in the 1st century?
I would say the corrupt murderous OC Judean rulers and not as much as the Romans.

The Christian Jews [like Jesus] were being squeezed from both the Romans and Judean rulers, but the Romans just wanted the Jews to be pacified, for lack of a better word.

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mkgal1 said:

Absolutely! That's why I see it as "good news" that the priesthood was taken away from them in 70 A.D.

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John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

John 11:48
"If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation."

Note the Temple Menorah being taken:

Jewish–Roman wars - Wikipedia

...


=======================================

Then some 4 centuries later, God took down the Roman Empire and the invaders took off with the Menorah.

This picture shows a Menorah being taken during the sacking of Rome.

Sack of Rome (455) - Wikipedia

What Caused The Fall of the Roman Empire?

Pedra said:

How is it some who claim to be followers of Jesus insist on changing what the word of God & Jesus taught

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Pedra said:

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell."

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Actually - The original Greek word was
γέενναν (geennan) 1067: Gehenna used in those passages. You can verify that with any lexicon. That's a literal valley near Jerusalem that had an evil past (so it represented a place a person wouldn't wish to end up). It's not the Dante's inferno type hell so many imagine.

Pedra said:

Yes you do ad -lib --waxing theoretically about goats and sheep as you did had absolutely NOTHING to do with what the scripture stated.

These verses your cited are not speaking of hell.

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You keep calling me an "ad-libber," but you fail to point out where my summation differs from the direct quote. Even when I do a direct quote, you act as if I am talking through my hat.

You can't have it both ways.

BTW, I don't think I said that the verses I quoted were speaking of hell/Hell. I said it was Godfire.

Lazarus Short said:

You keep calling me an "ad-libber," but you fail to point out where my summation differs from the direct quote. Even when I do a direct quote, you act as if I am talking through my hat.

You can't have it both ways.

BTW, I don't think I said that the verses I quoted were speaking of hell/Hell. I said it was Godfire.

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Sorry , you don't seem to carefully read posts, just very quick with responses.

mkgal1 said:

Actually - The original Greek word was
γέενναν (geennan) 1067: Gehenna used in those passages. You can verify that with any lexicon. That's a literal valley near Jerusalem that had an evil past (so it represented a place a person wouldn't wish to end up). It's not the Dante's inferno type hell so many imagine.

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It should be clear that Jesus was referring specifically to those being condemned to suffer in hell.
You want to reject Jesus warning , it's up to you.

Pedra said:

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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If you're going to argue that Matthew 25:46 is about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell - then you're going to have to follow Jesus' words about how one achieves "eternal life'. The verses just preceding v. 26 say this:

Matthew 25:43 -45

43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

aiki said:

Fire is a means of divine destruction and judgment:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

There is no "transformation" here but a complete destruction of the things Peter mentions in the verse. There is no phoenix-like rising of the earth, elements and heavens from the ashes of their burning.

Genesis 19:24
24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.

Fire is used here in divine judgment and destruction upon evil Sodom and Gomorrah.

Numbers 11:1
11 Now when the people complained, it displeased the Lord; for the Lord heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the Lord burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp.

Here, too, God's judgment falls in consuming fire upon the grumbling Israelites.

Numbers 16:35
35 And a fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense.

Again, God resorts to fire as a means of punishment of the wicked.

Deuteronomy 4:24
24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Here, God is described as a fire that consumes and that is associated with His jealousy.

2 Kings 1:10
10 So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

And...once more heavenly fire consumes the wicked.

Psalms 18:8
Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;

And so on. Apparently, God has not got your memo about the wickedness of burning people with fire...

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What may have been interpreted by legalists in 'the natural' as to render up incinerated and charred corpses strewn hither and thither along the grim red carpet of Israel's shortfalls in measuring up to God's authoritarian requirements, is revealed by Jesus in 'the spiritual' to be in reality the destruction of those sinful inward parts of our being, the pruning/ correction (kolazei) of those diseased agents.

This is why we fight spiritual warfare and 'the last enemy' is death and not Barry, Steve and Karen (and Dr Death, time permitting). The sins of unbelief, cowardice etc are those enemies destroyed pursuant to the last judgment. The entire revelation of grace is a paradigm-shift that opens eyes to the way the truth and the life. His kingdom is not of this world.

So, for instance, we're still in the Babylonian baby brain bashing business, but don't take it literally rush out and join the US Army in Iraq. The message is to nip sinful thoughts in the bud, without mercy. It's always first a personal and relational message. Smiting is for sin. The sinner is for saving. That's the Word, from a to z.

mkgal1 said:

Did you author that, WestOzzie? I agree with ShrewdManager - it should be required reading. I especially appreciate this quote from it:

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Yeah that's my personal blog thing.

mkgal1 said:

turn to Me and be saved,

all the ends of the earth;

for I am God,

and there is no other.

23 By Myself I have sworn;

truth has gone out from My mouth,

a word that will not be revoked:

Every knee will bow before Me,

every tongue will swear allegiance.c

24Surely they will say of Me,

‘In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.’”

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See the condition? "" Turn to me and be saved"
It's not universal.

FineLinen said:

Is that a fact?

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Perhaps you do not know the difference between "only" and "especially".

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Perhaps you should learn to take the whole counsel of Scripture into account before you make assertions about its meaning. I have already cited several verses in earlier posts that indicate very clearly that God is not the Saviour of all men in actuality, but only potentially. This is indicated in the distinction "especially those who believe." These are distinct from the lost who may be saved if they believe because they have believed and so have been saved. This is not difficult to see...