Our God The Consuming Fire

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renniks

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Yes Really.
What do you do with John 12:32. I will draw all people to myself. Is this true or not?
What about Phil 2:10 the every knee shall bow and tongue confess passage?
Which is the same as Isa 45:22,23.
They shall confess that in God alone they have righteousness and strength...who? All people!
But of course this cannot be what God means...we must correct and explain these clear statements away by our eternal everlasting forever and ever punishment doctrines. Right?
As I said, I have left that behind.
John 12:32 just means that the atonement is given for all. God does draw all. Not all respond by accepting his gift. Everybody will bow, not all willingly. The demons will bow, but not in repentance. How does the Isaiah passage end? All Israel's seed shall be justified. Who are Israel's seed? Not all people, that is for certain. All will bow, not all will be justified.
 
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aiki

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Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I don't see any verse in this collection of yours here that says anything about Sodom and Gomorrah suffering merely the destruction of the "old man." Paul wrote in Romans 6 about the spiritual co-crucifixion of the born-again Christian believer with Christ. How this state of affairs extends to the destruction by divine fire of the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah you have failed to explain. These cities are not at all in view in Paul's comments in Romans 6, so I'd be interested in seeing how you twist them to make them apply to what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

And the grumbling Israelites God incinerated? How do any of these passages you've offered have anything to do with them? How does the co-crucifixion of the post-Calvary born-again believer have anything to do with these complaining Old Covenant Chosen People God burned to a crisp? Well, it simply doesn't. Which is why you've trotted out a series of passages without any explanation or rationale for how they address the questions I asked you.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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Yes and the same in Jeremiah 7. They did this abominable thing, burning their children in the fire, in the valley of the sons of Hinnom--in Greek it is called Gehenna. And as you see burning people in a fire does not originate with Father or ever enter His pure mind to do such a wicked thing.

The destructive effects of Hell teaching - The destructive effects of Hell teachings

Thanks for the link brother, should be a made must-read primer for re-orienting damnationists. Those kind of dark rites to pagan idols are incompatible with God - for He is light, and there is no darkness in Him.

It reveals how crafty that devil is, lacing the Bible with subtle mistranslations, appealing to carnal fears and vanities, importing afterlife folklore and beefing up the horrors of hell over time. He's boiled the frog, and made merchandise of many.
 
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Lazarus Short

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:rolleyes: It does not matter that Paul didn't use the word "hell". Paul mentions God's wrath.
Romans 1: 18 " 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and the wickedness of men who suppress the Truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.…"

If a person just cherry-picks what Jesus taught they will emphasize some of His teachings and ignore others. Which is what you are attempting to do.
It is my understanding that we are to read the teachings in the N.T. in it's entirety in context of the verses, because the BIble is a cohesive whole.
Imo, it misrepresents the whole message if someone chooses to just isolate certain books, or only certain verses and think they contradict teachings because that is to miss the message entirely imo.
Just because Paul taught the Gospel of grace doesn't mean Paul didn't teach about judgment or hell.
In regards to your referring to what Jesus said , in fact , "the drawing all people to Him" ---, "drawing to" does not mean it is mandatory for all people to accept CHRIST Jesus, all people have been given free will to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus and the free gift that Jesus offers. In fact if it was mandatory then we would not have needed the Gospel in the first place. God's wrath and judgment is a key element to the Gospel of grace.
Jesus would be contradicting himself since He taught about eternal hell, and the wide gate and the narrow one that few would find.
or John the Baptist description of the Son of God , Jesus appearing.
Matt 3:12 "12His winnowing fork is in His hand TO CLEAR HIS THRESHING FLOOR AND TO GATHER HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN; BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE."

I agree that the whole message must be kept in mind, and would you be surprised that I did in fact, peruse every book, chapter and verse of the Bible, comparing text with text, to arrive at what I believe? The problem is that a system of theology is difficult to present in a single post of a discussion forum. I am currently on a word study on FIRE in the Bible, and it is adding nuance to my views. OTOH, you seem to be unaware that I have very good reasons to believe as I do.

You mention cherry-picking, and accuse me of it. Surprise - I am against the practice as well, and believe hell-advocates do it. We seem to have no common ground.

Realize that the seeds in the head of a wheat plant contain the grain and the chaff TOGETHER, in intimate oneness. Only the threshing separates them, and that is why I see them as parts of each person, rather than two classes of people. In another analogy, in I Corinthians 3, we see people's works tested by fire, the wood, hay and stubble burned up and the gold, silver and precious gems not. Again, each person, not two classes of people.
 
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mkgal1

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The destructive effects of Hell teaching - The destructive effects of Hell teachings
Did you author that, WestOzzie? I agree with ShrewdManager - it should be required reading. I especially appreciate this quote from it:

Judah did evil by bringing into the Lord’s house idols to pollute it. The Church has done the same by bringing into herself the teaching of sinners burned alive forever and ever in a place called Hell. Judah built the high places of Topheh. High places speak to us in the New Covenant of High things–ideas, words, arguments that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. Such high places are strongholds that must be cast down.
 
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aiki

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Nowhere is salvation conditional!

Our Father is the God of salvation. He is NOT a potential Saviour: He IS Saviour of ALL mankind with a special emphasis upon the "especially" of His love and grace.

Romans 2:5-11
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9
7 ...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
 
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mkgal1

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John 12:32 just means that the atonement is given for all. God does draw all. Not all respond by accepting his gift
So are you suggesting that Jesus misrepresented Himself or just left out that part about "not all will respond"?

John 12:31-32 - From this moment on, everything in this world is about to change, for the ruler of this dark world will be overthrown. 32 And I will do this when I am lifted up off the ground and when I draw the hearts of people to gather them to me.”
 
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aiki

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Yes and the same in Jeremiah 7. They did this abominable thing, burning their children in the fire, in the valley of the sons of Hinnom--in Greek it is called Gehenna. And as you see burning people in a fire does not originate with Father or ever enter His pure mind to do such a wicked thing.

Fire is a means of divine destruction and judgment:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.


There is no "transformation" here but a complete destruction of the things Peter mentions in the verse. There is no phoenix-like rising of the earth, elements and heavens from the ashes of their burning.

Genesis 19:24
24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.


Fire is used here in divine judgment and destruction upon evil Sodom and Gomorrah.

Numbers 11:1
11 Now when the people complained, it displeased the Lord; for the Lord heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the Lord burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp.


Here, too, God's judgment falls in consuming fire upon the grumbling Israelites.

Numbers 16:35
35 And a fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense.


Again, God resorts to fire as a means of punishment of the wicked.

Deuteronomy 4:24
24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.


Here, God is described as a fire that consumes and that is associated with His jealousy.

2 Kings 1:10
10 So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.


And...once more heavenly fire consumes the wicked.

Psalms 18:8
Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;


And so on. Apparently, God has not got your memo about the wickedness of burning people with fire...
 
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Pedra

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You've been arguing that God's grace expires and He punishes in a tormenting way in hell (instead of healing and restoring us). That's what I don't see in Scripture. Instead I see this as a theme of His overall plan:

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them" (2 Cor. 5:19).​
Salvation FROM what, though....is the question? Salvation from sin or salvation from hell?
It is salvation from GOD's righteous wrath against sin & the just punishment for sin.
God is Holy, this is one of the things that we need to understand. We can't just assume God is just a gigantic human.

Please be accurate and quote me exactly - you claimed "You've been arguing that God's grace expires" that is not correct. If you make such a statement please show me that where I specifically said that. Otherwise you are either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I said.
By your posts, I think you only understand a portion of what the Gospel of Jesus is & do not fully understand why God the Father sent His only Son. I don't think you understand the complete message that the Bible teaches.
Put aside what you've been told momentarily and just desire to know God's truth & prayerfully seek only what is revealed in the Bible scripture. Try reading the scripture in context which it is written, and in it's entirety and don't misuse by ripping multiple single verses out of the context which they are written in order to try to force it say only what you believe. We are only deceiving ourselves if we do that.
We have been given the Bible as a revelation from GOD & to teach us. God explained the beginning of creation in Genesis, the fall of mankind, His law & His plan of salvation & the old testament predicts Jesus coming & His work of salvation was revealed . His plan & purpose and believe what IT says --not to attempt to mold it to our own narrow opinions & beliefs.
Gotquestions.org is a good biblical source for understanding the doctrine of salvation. It is a good biblical source for finding explanation that is backed with scriptures. I suggest you spend some time there. Btw, it is not where I've learned my perspective, it is a place I've noticed sticks just with what the Bible states rather then imposing a certain view as different churches tend to do.

What is salvation? What is the Christian doctrine of salvation? | GotQuestions.org

What is the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Our God is a consuming Fire
Fire Is A Beneficent Agent
How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…
“Life”…Isa. 4:5
“Purification”…Matt. 3:3
“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27
“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-
Hello dear friend.
You create the most thought provoking threads.
The event of the burning bush comes to mind [I show the movie version at bottom]

Exodus 3:2

And a Messenger of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from midst of a bush.
And he is looking, and behold! the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

Deu 4:36
“Out of heaven He let you hear His voice, that He might instruct you;
on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire.

Eze 22:31
“Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them;
I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath;
and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord GOD.
==============
My patron saint, Stephen, quoted from that verse in Exodus before he was stoned. [that is also when Saint Saul/Paul appeared:
Stoning of Stephen against the Law

Acts 7:
1 Then the high priest said, “Are these things so?”
2 And he said, “Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran,
30 “And when forty years had passed, a Messenger of LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai.
35 “This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge? is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush.
54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed upon him with their teeth.
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
58 and they dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. His accusers took off their coats and laid them at the feet of a young man named Saul

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

According to Hebrews we are also a "flame of fire"

Hebrews 1:7 And toward indeed to the Messengers He is saying 'Who is making His Messengers winds<4151> and His ministers a flame of fire '

Revelation 2:18
‘And to the Messenger of the assembly in Thyatira write! These things saith the Son of the God, Who is having His eyes as a flame of fire, and His feet like to burnished bronze<5474>;
Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?
Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me, that I am being anguished in this flame".
First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39). The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames"). It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.

The word rendered "torment" here is a form of the Greek verb odunao, which literally means "grief," "pain," or "suffering." Predominantly, it conveys the sense of mental anguish, not physical pain. Forms of this word are found only four times in the Scriptures, all in the writings of Luke. It appears twice in this parable, in verses 24 and 25. In Luke 2:48, it is used to describe the anxious distress that Mary and Joseph felt after they discovered the 12-year old Yeshua missing on the trip home from Jerusalem after the Passover feast. In Acts 20:38, it depicts the sorrow the elders of the Ephesian Church felt at Paul's farewell announcement that they would never see him again.
Revelation 11:5
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours<2719> their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

==================

 
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Pedra

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So are you suggesting that Jesus misrepresented Himself or just left out that part about "not all will respond"?

John 12:31-32 - From this moment on, everything in this world is about to change, for the ruler of this dark world will be overthrown. 32 And I will do this when I am lifted up off the ground and when I draw the hearts of people to gather them to me.”
We are suggesting that it is You who imposes a wrong belief upon the scripture & you who does not hear what Jesus taught. The Bible clearly states salvation is for those who BELIEVE and have FAITH in Jesus as Jesus & Apostle Paul taught.
Jesus taught whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Mark 16:16 " 16 WHO EVER BELIEVES and is baptized WILL BE SAVED, but whoever does Not Believe WILL BE CONDEMNED.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "8 For it is by Grace you have been SAVED through FAITH, and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.…"
 
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renniks

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So are you suggesting that Jesus misrepresented Himself or just left out that part about "not all will respond"?

John 12:31-32 - From this moment on, everything in this world is about to change, for the ruler of this dark world will be overthrown. 32 And I will do this when I am lifted up off the ground and when I draw the hearts of people to gather them to me.”

This is called cherry picking. I can do it too. I can pick out a verse from the Bible and make it say almost anything. Example: Psalm 137:9 Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
Well, obviously, killing babies is blessed by God! Let's build a doctrine around that...or not. How about we read the whole thing instead of picking random verses to fit our ideas of what God should do?

In this case, all we have to do is read the rest of the chapter.
John 12: 44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.

Like I said, salvation is conditional on belief. It's not just automatically credited to everyone's account because of the cross.
 
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Pedra

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Realize that the seeds in the head of a wheat plant contain the grain and the chaff TOGETHER, in intimate oneness.
That idea you created for yourself is not from the Bible, but your own concept which is not what is in the scripture & not the meaning of that verse which is clearly warning same as the scripture that says goats and sheep will be separated and have two separate destinations.
 
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FineLinen

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Hello dear friend.
You create the most thought provoking threads.
The event of the burning bush comes to mind [I show the movie version at bottom]

Exodus 3:2

And a Messenger of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from midst of a bush.
And he is looking, and behold! the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

Deu 4:36
“Out of heaven He let you hear His voice, that He might instruct you;
on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire.

Eze 22:31
“Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them;
I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath;
and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord GOD.
==============
My patron saint, Stephen, quoted from that verse in Exodus before he was stoned. [that is also when Saint Saul/Paul appeared:
Stoning of Stephen against the Law

Acts 7:
1 Then the high priest said, “Are these things so?”
2 And he said, “Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran,
30 “And when forty years had passed, a Messenger of LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai.
35 “This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge? is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush.
54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed upon him with their teeth.
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
58 and they dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. His accusers took off their coats and laid them at the feet of a young man named Saul

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

According to Hebrews we are also a "flame of fire"

Hebrews 1:7 And toward indeed to the Messengers He is saying 'Who is making His Messengers winds<4151> and His ministers a flame of fire '

Revelation 2:18
‘And to the Messenger of the assembly in Thyatira write! These things saith the Son of the God, Who is having His eyes as a flame of fire, and His feet like to burnished bronze<5474>;
Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

Revelation 11:5
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours<2719> their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

==================


Dear Little Lamb: These are mighty days in Father Land. I have been thinking again of how dangerous it is reaching for the Tree of Life.

Poor fallen sinful man has evolved into a religous fallen creature that places everything of our God into "simply." The way into the Tree of Life has angelic beings surrounding it, with flaming swords swirling in every direction. There is only one way in, thru the flaming swords of the Lord.

Welcome to the Tree of Life
 
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FineLinen

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Romans 2:5-11
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9
7 ...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Everlasting Destruction Revised

I will say it again, and again and again.

The foundation for Salvation is our God, the Saviour of all mankind. He is not a potential Saviour,

He IS Saviour
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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lake of fire - How long will Satan be tormented there? day and night - for ever and ever This wicked angel will not be consumed to nothing.
In the OT, an angel could be right in a fire. It was not consumed. What you might try is to compare what is ahead for the saints -as in
future ages in contrast to what is shown as to the wicked.
His mercy is on those who love Him from generation to generation.
OT --men that died in their sin -died without mercy
I would think the same thing that the 1st century Jewish Saints and followers of Jesus went thru [including the beloved Apostle Paul] as Christians Saints do today and have been doing through out the centuries.......

Gotta have faith and endurance to the end
.........Praise Jesus!

John 8:44
`Ye out of a father the Devil are,
and the desires of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him.
Whenever he may be talking, the falsehood out of the own/P he is talking, that a falsifier he is and the father of it.

Acts 7:52 -
“Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?
And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

2 Corinthians 1:4
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"


Revelation 2:10
No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried. And ye shall be having Tribulation ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the Crown of the Life.


Revelation 14:12
Here is endurance of the saints
: here are those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Revelation 13:10
if any one a captivity doth gather, into captivity he doth go away; if any one by sword doth kill, it behoveth him by sword to be killed;
here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.
==========================


1 Thessalonians 2:15
who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing.

2 Corinthians 1:4
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

2 Corinthians 11
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more:
in harder labor,
in more imprisonments,
in worse beatings,
in frequent danger of death.
24 By Judeans five times forty minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods,
once I was stoned,
three times I was shipwrecked. I spent a night and a day in the open sea.
26 In my frequent journeys, I have been in dangers of rivers
and to dangers of bandits,
in dangers from fellow race,
from the Gentiles,
in city and in wilderness,
in danger on the sea
and to dangers in false brothers,
27 in labor and toil and often without sleep,
in hunger and thirst,
and often without food, in cold and exposure.

1 Corinthians 4:
8 Already you have all you want. Already you have become rich. Without us, you have become kings. How I wish you really were kings, so that we might be kings with you.
9 For it seems to me that God has displayed us apostles at the end of the procession, like prisoners appointed for death.
We have become a spectacle to the whole world, to angels as well as to men.

10 We are fools for Christ, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are honored, but we are dishonored.
11 To this very hour
we are hungry and thirsty,
we are poorly clothed,
we are brutally treated,
we are homeless.
12 We work hard with our own hands.
When we are vilified, we bless;
when we are persecuted, we endure it;
13 when we are slandered, we answer gently.

Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.


 
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Lazarus Short

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That idea you created for yourself is not from the Bible, but your own concept which is not what is in the scripture & not the meaning of that verse which is clearly warning same as the scripture that says goats and sheep will be separated and have two separate destinations.

Realize two things about the sheep and the goats:

1. Sheep and goats are both clean animals, both as food and in the ceremonial sense.

2. The goats are sent into the cleansing fire (Godfire) of First Corinthians 3:15, where their chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble will be burned away. Yet, they will be saved as through fire.

Every fire in the Bible, and I admit that I am still looking at all of them, is either a natural fire or a Godfire, never Hellfire. They have merely been designated so by the Hell theorists who put theology before translation and tweaked the text accordingly. The Bible versions without the foreign word "Hell" witness against you.
 
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aiki

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I will say it again, and again and again.

You may say what you like as much as you like. Repetition of a thing doesn't make it true, however.

The foundation for Salvation is our God, the Saviour of all mankind. He is not a potential Saviour,

Christ is the Saviour but not of all mankind, only of those who believe. This the Bible makes crystal clear. See my last post.
 
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FineLinen

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Christ is the Saviour but not of all mankind, only of those who believe. This the Bible makes crystal clear. See my last post.

Is that a fact?

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Perhaps you do not know the difference between "only" and "especially".
 
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