Lake of Fire

sdowney717

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Romans 10:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

The abyss, the pit, the great deep, a place under the earth, Abraham's bosom, (of course divided apart) hell, sheol, gehenna are all facets of hell, different areas of that place.
No one when they died went to heaven, until Christ ascended, the righteous dead went to a good place in the midst of hell, which was kept apart, it was paradise. When Christ ascended He led the captivity captive from the good place of Abraham's bosom and gave gifts to men. (Holy Spirit gifts)
When Christ died, He descended into the lower parts of the earth, hell, and preached to the spirits imprisoned there. Christ did not suffer in hell and was not tormented like some false preachers say. Lazarus and the rich man could talk to each other, but they were kept separated, neither if they would have desired could pass across to the other side. After Christ ascends, we next find paradise in heaven with God. But at Chris't death, one of the men crucified with Him, Christ said he would be with Him in paradise. (Abraham's bosom)
 
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mkgal1

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Mark 9:43-48 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) uses the gehenna, which is the word for hell the unquenchable fire, can God make a fire that never goes out? Sure He can..

43 `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

44 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.

45 `And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

46 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.

47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --

48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
I believe the context of Mark 9:43-48 is the impending destruction (to Jesus' listeners) of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

upload_2019-9-14_14-36-51.jpeg

https://g.co/kgs/c571w1

Quoting from linked article:
The fire not being quenched doesn’t mean it burns forever. It means you can’t stop it, or put it out until it finishes the job. No fire department is coming to the rescue. It won’t rain that day. It doesn’t mean eternal/forever.

The reason that Jesus uses death in this parable to teach a lesson is that once the city was surrounded there was no turning back, it was over, there was no coming back from that decision to reject their Messiah!

Notice the uses of the word Ge-henna. Ge-henna is a literal valley in Jerusalem known for as a place of judgment because it was there that Israel offered sacrifices of children to the false god Molech. So as the apostate Jews murdered their believing brothers, the day would come where they themselves would suffer at the hands of Rome and end up burned in the city's destruction and thrown into the valley below. History records that this is exactly what happened.
~ Hell No, We Won't Go! The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus — A New Day Dawning
 
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Der Alte

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I was referring to those who focus on hell rather than the Kingdom. Many often prefer the hell route because they prefer to keep their will rather than surrender it and accept God's. They distract from the Kingdom and in turn it keeps attention away from their failure to reject the will of man.
It's amazing how you "know" the motives of people you don't even know. I might say that those who focus on the mercy and grace of God and ignore the justice and retribution are the ones who prefer to keep their will rather than surrender it and accept God's.
Actually this served the church quite well that rebelled against the Gospel of the Kingdom and teamed up with the world of man to create a new governmental institution of man, not God, 1700 years ago. The blind have lead the blind in that tradition ever since.
I could say the same about you and others who believe as you do and it would be just as meaningful as your tirade.
 
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Blade

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Matt 18:8. Hell was never made for man. Its not what we think of as in "right vs wrong" or what a GOD should do or not do. We have GOD or Satan. There is no middle ground. Our personal belief on this subject or our interpretation of what the Word of God "really says". Thats not how He is going to view this.

Each side comes with a reward. Everything that was made already for Satan... is what everyone that follows Satan will receive. This is clearly written. Did we read the OT? Thats the same GOD as the NT. He has not changed. Christ came to this earth.. His choice. We don't know truly how much He loves us. The ones on Satans side.. WANT to be there. Its like the mark of the beast.. where they must worship it 1st. All that do this KNOW why they are doing it. They will know they are saying NO to GOD and yes to the lawless one. This is why there is no forgiveness for it. They KNOW why they take it.

I have no fear of it what so ever. I am in the hands of a GOD! The only God.. of Abraham Issac and Jacob.. and the God of the Christians. Who can take me out of His hands?
 
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sdowney717

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Matt 18:8. Hell was never made for man. Its not what we think of as in "right vs wrong" or what a GOD should do or not do. We have GOD or Satan. There is no middle ground. Our personal belief on this subject or our interpretation of what the Word of God "really says". Thats not how He is going to view this.

Each side comes with a reward. Everything that was made already for Satan... is what everyone that follows Satan will receive. This is clearly written. Did we read the OT? Thats the same GOD as the NT. He has not changed. Christ came to this earth.. His choice. We don't know truly how much He loves us. The ones on Satans side.. WANT to be there. Its like the mark of the beast.. where they must worship it 1st. All that do this KNOW why they are doing it. They will know they are saying NO to GOD and yes to the lawless one. This is why there is no forgiveness for it. They KNOW why they take it.

I have no fear of it what so ever. I am in the hands of a GOD! The only God.. of Abraham Issac and Jacob.. and the God of the Christians. Who can take me out of His hands?

Since Hell was made for angels who fell, and not man. Angels must have fallen first and then man fell after falling into temptation coming from the fallen angel Satan in the garden.
I dont imagine God making a hell when no one had fallen into sin, angel or men.
As soon as the first angel fell and sinned against God, hell appeared, and it would have only taken God an instant of time, not like days of creation.
God could have done everything instantly but He chose to work for 6 days and rest on the 7th for the sake of man, who was created in His image, to give him a day of rest.
But angels need no day of rest or sleep like people do.
 
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mkgal1

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About the fires in Jerusalem in 70!A.D. (warning: it's graphic):

While the Temple was ablaze, the attackers plundered it, and countless people who were caught by them were slaughtered. There was no pity for age and no regard was accorded rank; children and old men, laymen and priests, alike were butchered; every class was pursued and crushed in the grip of war, whether they cried out for mercy or offered resistance.

Through the roar of the flames streaming far and wide, the groans of the falling victims were heard; such was the height of the hill and the magnitude of the blazing pile that the entire city seemed to be ablaze; and the noise – nothing more deafening and frightening could be imagined.

There were the war cries of the Roman legions as they swept onwards en masse, the yells of the rebels encircled by fire and sword, the panic of the people who, cut off above, fled into the arms of the enemy, and their shrieks as they met their fate. The cries on the hill blended with those of the multitudes in the city below; and now many people who were exhausted and tongue-tied as a result of hunger, when they beheld the Temple on fire, found strength once more to lament and wail.

The Temple Mount, everywhere enveloped in flames, seemed to be boiling over from its base; yet the blood seemed more abundant than the flames and the numbers of the slain greater than those of the slayers. The soldiers climbed over heaps of bodies as they chased the fugitives." (Josephus' account appears in: Cornfield, Gaalya ed., Josephus, The Jewish War (1982); Duruy, Victor, History of Rome vol. V (1883).)

Among the tragic events that at this time occurred, the following is more particularly deserving of notice: A false prophet, pretending to be a divine commission, said that if the people would flee to the Temple, they should behold signs of their speedy deliverance. Accordingly, about six thousand people, chiefly women and children, assembled in a gallery that was yet standing, on the outside of the building. While they waited in anxious expectation of the promised miracle, the Romans, with the most wanton barbarity, set fire to the gallery. Multitudes, rendered frantic by their horrible situation, threw themselves from the gallery onto the ruins below and were killed by the fall. Meanwhile, awful to relate, the rest, without a single exception, perished in the flames. (Welton, Jonathan (2013-11-01). Raptureless: An Optimistic Guide to the End of the World - Revised Edition Including The Art of Revelation (Kindle Locations 1380-1385). BookBaby. Kindle Edition.)
 
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mkgal1

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Something to consider: "Entering the kingdom" was not about going to heaven, they were passing through the Old Age of Law into the age of the kingdom which is established by the removal of the old natural kingdom (Gen. 49:10; Matt 21:43).
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus taught in Luke 16 about the rich man who died and was in hell and tormented there.
As we've already said, this was a parable… using the cultural idioms, and ideas of their day that isn’t in the bible anywhere else. The idea came from their years in Babylon from the Babylonian Talmud not the Hebrew scriptures.

In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”.
 
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Der Alte

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As we've already said, this was a parable… using the cultural idioms, and ideas of their day that isn’t in the bible anywhere else. The idea came from their years in Babylon from the Babylonian Talmud not the Hebrew scriptures.
In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”.
Someone "saying" the story of Lazarus and the rich man "was a parable… using the cultural idioms, and ideas of their day that isn’t in the bible anywhere else." does not make it so.
Do you not see how utterly ridiculous this is?
Do you think Jesus would actually use "cultural idioms, and ideas of their day that isn’t in the bible anywhere else" or something that "came from their years in Babylon from the Babylonian Talmud not the Hebrew scriptures." to teach the kingdom of God?
This description is not in the form of a parable. All undisputed parables use events and situations that were common knowledge to Jesus' audience; lost coins, lost sheep, a wayward son who squandered his inheritance etc. to introduce or clarify misunderstood or unknown truths about the kingdom of heaven.
Other than the fact that both men lived and died there is nothing that Jesus' audience would have any knowledge about.
"In the bosom of" refers to the place of honor at a feast or banquet. Diners did not sit at table as we do today, they reclined on their left elbows with their feet stretched out away from the low table.
That is how the woman was able to wash Jesus' feet with her tears. An unknown woman did not crawl around under a table among the feet of men she did not know. "In the bosom of" was the position in front of the host. That is why John had to lay his head back onto Jesus' breast to speak to Him.
The Lazarus story was not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it to His disciples afterward.

Abraham was a actual, historical person. If he was not in the place Jesus described and did not speak the words Jesus said, Jesus was a liar. Would Jesus use a fictional story that never happened to explain Bible truth?
 
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Russ Campbell

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Revelation 20:1-6
THE MILLENNIAL REIGN
In the preceding chapter the beast and the false prophet are depicted as meeting their punishment in the lake of fire. In this, the devil, death, and Hades are consigned to a similar fate. The imagery is apparently drawn from that fearful tragedy which left so deep an impression on the ancient world. See Gen_14:10; Gen_19:24; Jud_1:7. The last reference is especially interesting, because there the fate of the cities of the plain is quoted as an example of eternal fire. May it be ours to participate in the first resurrection!
Let our loins be girded and our lamps trimmed, that we may be found of Christ in peace, at our posts, and prepare to enter with Him into the bridal feast. This is a more solemn and critical consideration than the majority of Christians seem to suppose. In fellowship with their Lord, His people are to exert in a godly direction the same kind of influence over the affairs of men, as the rulers of darkness in an ungodly sense now exercise. Thank God, every morning brings that blessed day nearer.
 
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jamesbond007

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Now, the interesting thing is, that we don’t see the lake of fire (hell) appear until right after this present earth and heavens are de-created.

Could it be that the de-creation of our world creates the lake of fire?

Could it be that God lets those who loved this world more than Him, have it in its natural state apart from Him?

I'm late to this thread, too, and it appears some scriptural battles going on.

The lake of fire is already present and there are two places of torment. Besides, the permanent lake of fire, there is a part of Hades for those without God and it appears there is fire there, too.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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If this phrase means "hell" then why didn't Jesus or Paul (or any of the disciples) ever teach that the Lake of Fire is a place of everlasting punishment in the afterlife? You'd expect that to be their main focus if that were the case - and we'd have that teaching recorded for us in the Scripture.....but I don't see it.
Hello mkgal. Just now saw this thread.
Jesus did mention "gehenna" in the Gospels............Paul never mentioned it

And old thread I had created on Paul and Gehenna:

Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?
May 8, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Out of the 12 times this word "gehenna" is used, it is used only 1 time outside of the Gospels [James 3:6].
Why did not the Epistles of Paul not mention it?
Any help on this would be appreciated.

Strong's Number G1067 matches the Greek (geenna), which occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

1067. geena gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell

Matthew 23: 33 "Serpents! brood of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna <1067>


Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:24
And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of methat I am being pained in the Flame this."

Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Ezekiel 39:12/Luke 16:24,26]
This member had the best response:
ebia said:
1. Because it's a particularly Jerusalem metaphor - why would you use such a localised metaphor when writing to people who have never been anywhere near Jerusalem in their lives; metaphors work best when the audience is familiar with the concrete side of the metaphor.
Some vids you and/or others may be interested in:

Thetotalvictoryofchrist
Utube videos

OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire



 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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I believe this was fulfilled in 70 A.D. with the destruction of the Temple and Ancient Jerusalem.
:amen:
I, and many other spirit led Christians, view OC 1st century Jerusalem as that great City in Revelation.
A good thread here for those interested:

Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

H
Hi I happened to come across this debate on the date of when Revelation was written. This is Germain to the topic as the book is a prophecy of thing to come and if written after 70AD the preterist view is toast. This is a long debate but the level of evidence is well organized and well presented.

Debate on the Date of the Book of Revelation - The Pre-Trib Research Center
However, if it was visioned/written before 70 ad, the futurist view is toast.......[Futurism is toast regardless of when it was visioned/written]

There are a plethora of threads on CF discussing that according to a google search:
search "dating revelation christian forums"

https://www.google.com/search?q=dat...EqwKHejYDHkQrQIoBDAAegQIAxAN&biw=1366&bih=626

=================================
When was the Book of Revelation written?

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
Was Flavius Josephus familiar with the Apocalypse of John?


John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)

Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5) John's Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)

Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)

John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)

Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)....................
===========================
Sites from the Preterist view

Dating the Apocalypse | Preterist Archive
The final destruction of Jerusalem came in 70 A.D. God's purposes and plans were all in place by this time. Nothing remained to be done.

Preterism and the Date of Revelation

Preterism and the Date of Revelation | Study Archive

=================================
Early Date of Revelation – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology
When was the Book of Revelation written

Date of Revelation (AD 62)

Description: This deals with the evidence for determining the early pre-70 date of the book of Revelation. We date the book in relation to a number of factors, including internal and external considerations. We arrive at a date in the second half of AD 62, before Hebrews and 2nd Peter were written. There is a PDF lesson outline available for this podcast. Email us if you would like to have a copy of it: "Date of Revelation" on 8/19/2012. Please request it by title and date. Here is our email address: preterist1@preterist.org

=======================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR
=================================

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted
========================
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

302660_c2760f5cc7d57e7088338ce451af705b.jpg


3amng4.jpg


 
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LittleLambofJesus

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WHAT IS THE SYMBOL OF THE LAKE OF FIRE?
What event in their past does it point to, that the generation that John lived in was in danger of experiencing? Every Israelite, every Jew in that day knew the history from their scriptures. When someone spoke of the greatest fire and brimstone story related to the judgment of a city, it was the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. And do you know where that is? It is the cities around the dead sea… which is a large lake, historically a lake of fire.

Imagine John speaking of the lake of fire to his contemporaries. He would be warning them that just as Sodom and Gomorrah fell, through fiery destruction, they were in danger as a Jewish legalistic system of ending in the same manner. He was pointing to the past, in order to warn them that just as what happened in the past… A SIGN POINTING.

Jude verse 7, uses the illustration of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, to warn the apostate Jews in his day.

Did you know that in the NT era, there were still active fires and smoke around the dead sea according to Strabo, the first century geographer, who called it “a land of fires” (XVI, 764).

A hundred years before Strabo, there is the record of a Jewish author who described the Dead Sea area. “Wisdom saved a man [Lot] from a destruction of the godless, and he escaped the fire that came on the Five Cities, cities whose wickedness, is still attested by a smoking waste” (Wisdom of Solomon 10:7, italics mine).

Diodorus Siculus, who also lived in the 1st century BC said: “The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived” (Book II, 48).

A few years later, in the time of Christ’s childhood, the Jewish writer Philo gave witness to the burnings and smoke that was still ascending. “The fire is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything and smoldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the brimstone that men dig up there” (On Abraham XXVII). [References from Associates of Scriptural Knowledge]

BUT… in the Bible IS Jerusalem associated with Sodom? YES!

In Deuteronomy 29:22-24, the book of the Law, was a prophecy that one day they would be overthrown like the burning and brimstone of Sodom and Gomorrah. The prophets multiple times say one day Jerusalem would be overthrown like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jesus said in Matthew 11:24, "Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

But does Revelation teach that Jerusalem is Sodom? Yes… Revelation 11:8, “And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.”

So everyone knew that the lake of fire was a symbol of the dead sea lake region of Sodom, and Jude and John pointed back to it saying that was going to happen to Jerusalem.

Did that happen? Yes… in AD 70 fires ravaged the city killing hundreds of thousands. -
Spiritual Myth-Busters: The Lake of Fire — A New Day Dawning
That burning away of the dross that you speak of, happens in this life, not the lake of fire.
Gotta burn that dross away.............

EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA/LAKE OF FIRE"

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.
===============
How and when would Yahweh gather them into the "furnace of Jerusalem"?
How about the feast of the Passover......


Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape<1628>.



The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;

The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly...........

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;........

The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe. The Roman legions made the most horrid outcries ; the rebels, finding themselves exposed to the fury of both fire and sword, screamed dreadfully ; while the unhappy people who were pent up between the enemy and the flames, deplored their situation in the most pitiable complaints.
Those on the hill and those in the city seemed mutually to return the groans of each other. Such as were expiring through famine, were revived by this hideous scene, and seemed to acquire new spirits to deplore their misfortunes. The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan.
The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire.
=============================
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.

And in fire She shall be utterly burned
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Quoting from linked article:
“Weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness! That is obviously a reference to suffering eternal physical torture in hell.”
Is that so?
Look at what happened leading up to Stephen being martyred in Acts 7:54: his accusers (members of the Sanhedrin) became furious and gnashed their teeth at him. Weeping and gnashing of teeth was an expression not of tormented pain and anguish, but of rage.
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them (Matt 21:45). The only reason they did not seize Jesus then and there was because they were afraid of the public outcry.

It was not the general mass of humanity that Jesus was speaking of when He talked about gnashing of teeth and the outer darkness in Matt 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30 and Luke 13:28. It was this group of self-righteous individuals who would find themselves outside the covenant they were so sure was their birthright. In that ‘outer darkness’, having failed to heed Jesus’ warnings, they would respond with defiant anger.

Sheep and goats
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matt 25:46).

To be fair, you can understand why people tell us ‘the Bible clearly says…’. Our English Bibles certainly seem to. But we need to look at the Greek words used by the original writers of the New Testament books.

Firstly, what do we understand by ‘punishment’? Kolasis is the word used here, and it means ‘correction’, not ‘retribution’. Greek had a word for retributive punishment, timoria, which is never used of God in the New Testament. God’s discipline is always restorative.

Secondly, the Greek language had no word for ‘eternal’. They could have invented one if they had wished to: the language was exceptionally well-suited to building new words from component parts. They did not need the word because they did not have the concept. The root of the word used here, aionios, is ‘age’. For Greek speakers, an aion could mean a lifetime, a generation, or a longer period of time – but always of finite length. So not never-ending, not forever and ever, not eternal.

“Ah, but the same word appears in both halves of this sentence, and since ‘eternal life’ is everlasting, then the punishment must be, too.”

That depends on what aspect of the life we focus on when we read ‘eternal’. Surely it is not primarily the length, but the quality. The life being promised is the-God-kind-of-life: and the punishment therefore is the-God-kind-of-punishment: restorative and corrective, not retributive.

There are other reasons to treat this passage with caution, too. The sheep and goats in the parable are nations, not individuals. The criterion for escaping ‘eternal punishment’ is good works, not faith in Jesus. So if you are prepared to assert that whole nations will be sent to heaven or hell – based on their works, not on faith – then you can reasonably use this passage to argue your case for an ‘eternal hell’. So far I have not come across anyone in any theological stream who is prepared to do so.
- 246. Gnashing Teeth and Goats
Great post mkgal!!!
This parable in Matthew 22 is a good study:

Matthew 22 and the "Man" not clothed for wedding feast
Apr 23, 2010

This parable has always intrigued me [much like the richman/lazarus parable of Luke 16].

What I would like to do is examing this story in relation to other verses in both the OT/OC and NT/NC.

The word used for "wedding feast" is used mainly in the Gospels, and this particular "Man" is an intersting study also. Please feel free to contribute anything you might know concerning this particular story. Thanks and God bless
Steve

#1062 used 18 times in 17 verses according to ISA.
Only used 3 times outside of Gospels: Hebrew 13:14, Revelation 19:7-9.

Matthew 22:11
And entering yet the King, to gaze of the ones reclining, He saw there a Man not in-slipped/endedu-menon <1746> (5765) cothing of wedding-feast/gamou <1062>


1062. gamos gam'-os of uncertain affinity; nuptials:--marriage, wedding.

This person has an interesting vid on that:

The Total Victory of Christ

The Outer Darkness is another concept that has been misrepresented in popular Christian culture. The idea of eternal separation from God is incoherent because it violates that very nature of God. The Outer Darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth is temporary as I explain from scripture in defense of the doctrine of the Apokatastasis.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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fwGod said:
Jesus taught in Luke 16 about the rich man who died and was in hell and tormented there.
I believe, if we are interpreting this parable to be about "hell".....then we are projecting our own beliefs and understandings on to the text and seeing something that's not really there.
The word "hell" isn't used here (Abraham's bosom and Hades are the terms used)....
The image of "resting on Abraham's bosom", from what I understand, represents a figure of speech that the ancient Jews would recognize to be in reference to a banquet....
Saints in the Arms of a Happy God by Jeff Turner
Yes you are indeed projecting your own beliefs onto the parable.
Of the Bibles I have access to, 14 of them use the word Hell. One of them.. is the King James Version. My own uses Hades. But since I'm English and not Greek, I use Hell.
The Hebrew word is Sheol. Hades and Sheol and Hell are interchangeable words.. due to the location of such a place.

My mention of Luke 16 has to do with where a person goes if they do not believe in Jesus. Which is very similar to where the rich man went after death because he didn't follow the teachings of Moses and repent of his sins.
That is the strangest interpretation that I've ever heard. There are plenty of verses that indicate that a person gets to heaven by believing in Jesus. One's economic status or how much a rich person is generous or not doesn't enter into salvation at all.

But it is by God's grace that we are saved through faith. It is the gift of God lest anyone should boast.
If heaven was possible by giving to the poor then anyone could say that they purchased heaven with their money. But that would be boasting.

The location at which the parable of Luke 16 is taught on is essential. And avoiding it, because of what Abraham said to the rich man in verses 27-31.
The term is not meant to be taken literally. However, bosom is closely connected with the word heart rather than chest. As in "the heart of the earth" which Jesus said that He would go when He died (Mat.12:40).
Too bad that you don't actually practice what you say because you've built quite a different doctrinal application with the few scripture references that you've mentioned so far.
That's a speculation that doesn't have much to do with what Jesus taught in the parable.
The parable of Luke 16 doesn't indicate that the rich man is a pharisee.
Congratulations. You've turned the topic of the entire thread and my response from where a person goes when they die if they don't believe in Jesus.

.. to the topic of wealth... doing so by one verse (19) of the entire parable. When the rest of the parable talks about torment in Hell and following the teachings of Moses (or by extension, Jesus) by repenting in order to avoid being sent to Hell.
That's been translated to show "hell"......but in the original language it was Abraham's bosom. "Hell" is a modern word. Like you mentioned.....Hebrew has the word Sheol (abode of the dead....like a grave) and Greek has Hades and Tartarus (Ghenna was an actual place near Jerusalem).

Quoting from linked article:
Only in the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV does the word hell appear in the Old Testament of the Bible, but even these versions have wide disagreements on the number of times hell occurs in the Old Testament. The Latin Vulgate mentions hell 86 times, whereas the KJV mentions hell 31 times and the NKJV mentions hell only 19 times.

All versions of the Bible except for these three, the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV, reject any notion of hell occurring in the original Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament. Also, please especially note from the comparison table that the translators of the Jewish Publication Society Bible and the Tanakh/The Complete Jewish Bible disagree with the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV by making no mention of hell whatsoever in their Bibles. If the Jews, who are experts in their own Hebrew language, do not include hell in their Bibles, then this further confirms that there is not a single word that means hell in the Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament. ~ Chapter 16 - Hebrew and Greek words mistranslated to mean Hell – Gods Plan for All
We're not informed by Scripture that Job is in "Abraham's bosom" or that King David is or isn't. Only Luke 16 uses that phrase.

I'm going to side with those that understand and study the ancient Hebrew language in their interpretation of Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament over you (no offense).

A "location after death" is - IMO - different than " a place of eternal punishment".

Yes....I AM arguing semantics....it matters. The entire Bible is "semantics" - but many people have imposed their own beliefs on to the text. You are also arguing "semantics" by stating that "hell" (especially your version of it) is written between the lines on Scriptural text - so does that mean the same rule applies (that your argument also "cannot be accepted as exhaustive and therefore not truly accurate)?
And why Luke is my favorite Gospel.
That "covenantle" parable is perhaps my largest study of the NT, especially since 2 of the greatest OT Men are mentioned in it, Abraham and Moses, and of course Lazarus of the NT, who was resurrected on the 4th day.

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

This "Covenantle" parable is probably my largest study of the Bible and would like to go thru it.

This translation of verses 19-31 is by using the T-R, a Greek interlinear, and Lexicon/Concordance.

Luke 16 YLT

Luke 16:
14And also the Pharisees, being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding him, 15and he said to them, ‘Ye are those declaring yourselves righteous before men, but God doth know your hearts; because that which among men is high, [is] abomination before God; 16the law and the prophets [are] till John; since then the reign of God is proclaimed good news, and every one doth press into it; 17and it is easier to the heaven and the earth to pass away, than of the law one tittle to fall.
18‘Every one who is sending away his wife, and marrying another, doth commit adultery; and every one who is marrying her sent away from a husband doth commit adultery.

19 Yet a certain Man was rich and was clothed purple and fine-linen, making-merry down to a-day shiningly
20 Yet a certain Poor-one was to name Lazarus, who had been cast toward the his gate, having sores-abiding
21 And yearning to be satisfied from the scraps, those falling from the table of the Rich-one, but also the dogs coming licked-upon the sores of him.
22 Became yet to be dying the Poor-one and to be carried away him by the Messengers into the bosom of Abraham.
Yet died also the Rich-one and was entombed.
23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosoms of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me, that I am being pained in this flame".
25 Said yet Abraham "Child! be thou being reminded! that thou got the goods of the in the life of thee and Lazarus in like manner the evils,
yet now here he is being comforted and thou art being pained.
26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying"
27 Saying yet "I am asking thee then father!, that thou should be sending him into the house of my father,
28 for I am having five brothers which he may be testifying to them that no also they may be coming into the place this of the torment".
29 Abraham is saying to him "they are having Moses and the Prophets let them hear them!".
30 The yet he said: "not! father Abraham, but if ever any from dead-ones may be going forth toward them they shall be reforming.
31 Saying yet to him "if Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising, they shall be being persuaded".
============================
There are a plethora of commentaries concerning this parable that can be found doing a google search:

https://www.google.com/search?clien....141.764.2j5......0....1..gws-wiz.S73AQsp5qKI
=============================================
I happen to like the commentary on this site as he delves into the Greek in most places, so I will be using him a lot.

A little background on where the parable was spoken and to whom it was spoken.

Note the reaction by the Judean religious Rulers to this parable:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Let's start by getting some background information on the situation in which Yeshua told this parable. Luke tells us that all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to the Messiah to hear what he had to say (Luke 15:1).
This made the Pharisees and scribes jealous and they complained, vehemently criticizing Yeshua for receiving sinners and eating with them (Luke 15:2). They were likely envious of his growing fame, afraid that his popularity would diminish their own authority and prestige.

So the Messiah first spoke a trio of related parables (the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son) to those gathered around him.
They were designed to show the tax collectors and sinners (as well as the Pharisees) that God was concerned for them and that He would seek out the lost and welcome them into His family when they repented and turned back to Him.

The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13).
The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua.

The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
======================================
Luke 16:
19 Yet a certain Man<444> was rich and was clothed in purple and fine-linen, making-merry down to a-day shiningly.


Using a concordance, I fount that the phrase "a certain man" is only found in the parables of the Gospel of Luke.

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)

Luke 10:30
Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 13:6
He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
Luk 14:2
And behold, there was a certain man before Him who had dropsy.
Luk 14:16
Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many,
Luk 15:11
Then He said: “A certain man had two sons.
Luk 16:1
And he said also unto his disciples, 'A certain man was rich, who had a steward, and he was accused to him as scattering his goods;
Luk 16:19
'And -- a certain man was rich, and was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry sumptuously every day,
Luk 19:12
He said therefore, 'A certain man of birth went on to a far country, to take to himself a kingdom, and to return,
Luk 20:9
Then He began to tell the people this parable: “A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time.
===============================
G444 used in 24 verses of the covenantle book of Revelation......

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)
G444 ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos), occurs 559 times in 504 verses

1st verse used in Revelation:

Rev 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle,

Last verse used:


Rev 21:17
and he measured its wall, an hundred forty-four cubits, the measure of a Man, that is, of the Messenger;
==================================

Commentaries from "biblehub"
Luke 16:19 Commentaries: "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

======================
I feel that this is a fairly good vid presentation/commentary on the parable for those interested and comments on it are appreciated:


TO BE CONTINUED................
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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mkgal1 said:
If this phrase means "hell" then why didn't Jesus or Paul (or any of the disciples) ever teach that the Lake of Fire is a place of everlasting punishment in the afterlife? You'd expect that to be their main focus if that were the case - and we'd have that teaching recorded for us in the Scripture.....but I don't see it.
It is the main focus.

Isn't this why Jesus Christ was crucified on a cross, shedding His blood, and dying?

Wasn't a Savior needed to be the "Remedy" for a sin-cursed world for any who would repent? (as it is written in John 3:16), thus saving any who repented from such a fate?
Hello brinny. Hast thou not read where it hath been written:

Hosea 13:14
"From hand of sh@'owl I shall release/rescue/06299 padah them; from Death I shall Redeem/01350 ga'al them.
Where plagues of you Death?. Where sting of you sh@'owl? Regret shall be hidden from My eyes." [1 Corinthians 15:55]

1 Corinthians 6:
19 Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own,
20 for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1 Corinthians 7:23
Of value/honor ye are bought/hgorasqhte <59>, no be ye becoming! bond-servents of men.
=====================================
Revelation 5:9
and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because Thou wast slaughtered and didst purchase/hgorasaV <59> Us to God in Thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation [Hosea 13:14]
===================
The OC Mosaic Jews were redeemed in 70ad as prophecied.........now Israel and the Gentiles share in the Redemption........

Luke 21:28
Beginning yet these-things to be becoming, up-bend! and lift-up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the redemption of ye.
[Hosea 13:14/Daniel 12]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS
So far as they tend to verify OUR LORD'S PREDICTIONS Relative to that event.


"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)


History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. --
Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Tell me where Christ and the Apostles said God is a trinity
Good question.
Apparently the Abrahamic religions of Judaism and Islam have a problem with it.
I have no problem with it myself.......

Trinity > Judaic and Islamic Objections (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Judaic and Islamic Objections
With rare exceptions atheists and naturalists don't bother to criticize trinitarian doctrines, beyond the passing joke or dismissal, rightly seeing issues about monotheism generally, and about the teachings and status of Jesus Christ as more fundamental.
Serious critics of trinitarian doctrines are nearly always fellow Abrahamic monotheists.
Objections by Christians are discussed in the supplementary document on the history of trinitarian doctrines, section 2.2, and the supplementary document on unitarianism; here we survey Islamic and Judaic objections.

js-p-600x773.jpg



50trinity1.jpg


 
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Here is a verse that teaches that the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Can wicked believers be thrown in the LoF/Gehenna?

OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire



 
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