Why I don't believe in Calvinism.

When there are verses that seem clearly to support Predestination and Eternal Security,

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Now you seem to be admitting that there is Scriptural backing for it yourself.

Anyway, take a look at John 10:28-29

-57 said:

Original sin places mankind into hell. Everyone who has ever lived and will live deserves hell. From those destined to hell God chooses His elect. To those God shows mercy and compassion.

Do you really think you could have freely chosen Christ if God didn't act in your life? Regenerate you first?

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God works by the true Light which eightieth every man that cometh into the world John 1:9, He is the one working to draw all men inwardly and convict them and reprove all sin inwardly as well. But only when men receive him then they can become the sons Of God. God does not force this upon men as a robot.

The excellency of the power is of God but we have this treasure in earthen vessels. As all do when God draws them. But not all will receive him or believe.

Si_monfaith said:

Genesis 3:22:"Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil".

Doesn't God say they started to have the knowledge of good & evil AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit & NOT before?

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Yes, they knew good and evil immediately after their sin, that sin being the first act of evil to be known, a sin that would instantly change their state of being, casting them out of fellowship with God. They had died. Before that they were innocent of the knowledge of evil, and therefore of good, since everything they had experienced up to that time was good, God having created everything good. But to oppose and disobey God is the most basic act of evil, opening the door to all other sins that would follow because, by that act, man had become his own "god" now, determining good and evil (morality) for himself. Sin would now flourish; evil would become common knowledge for man.

The Hebrew word used for knowledge here is most often used to denote experiential knowledge; to know a person carnally is one biblical example, or to know something directly, like a city, by actually traveling there. Adam & Eve were given consciences-they did not lack a sense of right and wrong and would've been naturally and immediately repulsed by murder, for example, if it could happen in Eden, or a whole host of evils that have now become commonplace in our fallen world. But they had never experienced these things; they had not known them; they were foreign. And the first and most basic law was commanded and enunciated directly by God so that they would've also already possessed a repulsion against disobedience, innately knowing that eating of the fruit would be wrong.

But the creature was given free will and he allowed the opinion and desire of creatures-themselves along with the serpent- to override God's will, not yet recognizing the infinite difference between Himself and them, and of the absolute perfection of His wisdom. Presumably that would come later as they learned of the difference and of their absolute need for God-we don't know the fate of our first parents. But either way we're all here to learn that same lesson so that, with the knowledge that parting ways with God only results in evils that we cannot overcome without Him ("Apart from Me you can do nothing", John 15:5), we may, with the help of revelation and grace, gain the wisdom to turn back to Him, the knowledge of good and evil having also played it's role in our "education".

And this explains why we're here, exiled from Eden into a place where, along with the good still inherent in creation, humankind has had to endure the evils of pain, suffering, sin, and death, the consequences of the ultimate evil that we also experience, being spiritually cut off and separated from our Creator. This is why it's so critical to regain the "knowledge of God", and this is exactly what Jesus came to reveal so that we may become reconciled with Him as we're willing. A teaching I'm familiar with says that, by his sin, Adam preferred himself to God. That's the rebellious family tradition that we're here to learn the foolishness of. Human history and God's working in and through it make no sense if not for the fact that through it all He's meaning to patiently mold and draw humanity into the light, without force or determinism, as we become ready to accept it.

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, I believe clarity of information is important if we are going to have a proper discussion on this topic and for you to prove that you are correct. You have to explain what you mean by your question. I am not going to defend your belief for you, friend. It is up to you defend Calvinism or to make your case for it in the Bible. From my perspective, the questions I asked you (that you are ignoring) are pretty Earth shattering to Calvinism. Why doesn't Jesus and His followers talk more in a Calvinistic way as Calvinists do today? Meaning, did Jesus ever tell people to "You cannot repent unless you are regenerated or elected by God." or did Jesus just plainly tell people to repent? or did Jesus just warn us all about sin and its consequences?

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I am not here to defend Calvinism but to seek answers.

Your questions are well answered in the following: "Why did God create most though He foreknew they wouldn't believe in His Son?"

Si_monfaith said:

I am not here to defend Calvinism but to seek answers.

Your questions are well answered in the following: "Why did God create most though He foreknew they wouldn't believe in His Son?"

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Because he created the human species and established the characteristics of humans such as intelligence, reasoning ability, and the ability to reproduce; and that all of this testifies to his love?

fhansen said:

Yes, they knew good and evil immediately after their sin, that sin being the first act of evil to be known, a sin that would instantly change their state of being, casting them out of fellowship with God. They had died. Before that they were innocent of the knowledge of evil, and therefore of good, since everything they had experienced up to that time was good, God having created everything good. But to oppose and disobey God is the most basic act of evil, opening the door to all other sins that would follow because, by that act, man had become his own "god" now, determining good and evil (morality) for himself. Sin would now flourish; evil would become common knowledge for man.

The Hebrew word used for knowledge here is most often used to denote experiential knowledge; to know a person carnally is one biblical example, or to know something directly, like a city, by actually traveling there. Adam & Eve were given consciences-they did not lack a sense of right and wrong and would've been naturally and immediately repulsed by murder, for example, if it could happen in Eden, or a whole host of evils that have now become commonplace in our fallen world. But they had never experienced these things; they had not known them; they were foreign. And the first and most basic law was commanded and enunciated directly by God so that they would've also already possessed a repulsion against disobedience, innately knowing that eating of the fruit would be wrong.

But the creature was given free will and he allowed the opinion and desire of creatures-themselves along with the serpent- to override God's will, not yet recognizing the infinite difference between Himself and them, and of the absolute perfection of His wisdom. Presumably that would come later as they learned of the difference and of their absolute need for God-we don't know the fate of our first parents. But either way we're all here to learn that same lesson so that, with the knowledge that parting from God only results in evils that we cannot overcome without Him ("Apart from Me you can do nothing", John 15:5), we may, with the help of revelation and grace, gain the wisdom to turn back to Him, the knowledge of good and evil having also played it's role in our "education".

And this explains why we're here, exiled from Eden into a place where, along with the good still inherent in creation, humankind has had to endure the evils of pain, suffering, sin, and death, the consequences of the ultimate evil that we also experience, being spiritually cut off and separated from our Creator. This is why it's so critical to regain the "knowledge of God", and this is exactly what Jesus came to reveal so that we may become reconciled with Him as we're willing. A teaching I'm familiar with says that, by his sin, Adam preferred himself to God. That's the rebellious family tradition that we're here to learn the foolishness of. Human history and God's working in and through it make no sense if not for the fact that through it all He's meaning to patiently mold and draw humanity into the light, without force or determinism, as we become ready to accept it.

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fhansen said:

Yes, they knew good and evil immediately after their sin

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You also stayed "As it is we're morally accountable beings because we're given the knowledge of justice; we know right from wrong".

If they started to have the knowledge of good & evil only after eating the forbidden fruit, how can you say they were moral beings before they ate the fruit?

Bible Highlighter said:

Your avatar and your reply in post #198 suggests otherwise that you are not trying to defend Calvinism. Are you saying you do not believe in Calvinism?

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I don't believe in isms but rather the Scripture.

Bible Highlighter said:

These part of your words here reminds me of this Christian song here:

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Thank you, I liked that. And in truth I think that's how we all actually experience it; it's a struggle.

Albion said:

Because he created the human species and established the characteristics of humans such as intelligence, reasoning ability, and the ability to reproduce; and that all of this testifies to his love?

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Isn't it because He has a plan & purpose in human history for His glory?

That's another way of saying it, yes.

Si_monfaith said:

You also stayed "As it is we're morally accountable beings because we're given the knowledge of justice; we know right from wrong".

If they started to have the knowledge of good & evil only after eating the forbidden fruit, how can you say they were moral beings before they ate the fruit?

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I was afraid I may not have made myself clear. The name, "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil", has nothing to do with a point in time when Adam & Eve acquired a conscience, or began knowing right from wrong. As I stated later, in my second paragraph, "Adam & Eve were given consciences". By that I mean that they already possessed them, as created. The term "the knowledge of good and evil" deals with the actual knowledge or experience of both, begotten by their first experience of evil, their own sin against God, with evil bringing good into focus by contrast. From then on these two realities, good and evil, would be literally known to man. A major paradigm shift had taken place in their world. They were now in a foreign state of being which would have to become the new norm for humanity: cut off in some manner from God, from their fellow man, from the rest of creation, and even from themselves.

Anyway, in light of this understanding my post #245 should be clearer.

Jeremiah 5:20-31

Sounds like free will to me. God says He will punish those who have not chosen Him. It is very clear. It is a theme throughout the old and new testament. A consistent one. All dismissed because the way a very select amount of verses a taken to mean a lot more than what they say.

That's how false doctrines are made. Calvinistic beliefs taken to their logical conclusion detract from God's glory and can cause blasphemy. God is Just and punishes those who deserve it. To deserve it you must be able to choose to sin.


Jeremiah 5
21Hear this, you foolish and senseless people,

who have eyes but do not see,

who have ears but do not hear:

22Should you not fear me?” declares the Lord.

“Should you not tremble in my presence?

I made the sand a boundary for the sea,

an everlasting barrier it cannot cross.

The waves may roll, but they cannot prevail;

they may roar, but they cannot cross it.

23But these people have stubborn and rebellious hearts;

they have turned aside and gone away.

24They do not say to themselves,

‘Let us fear the Lord our God,

who gives autumn and spring rains in season,

who assures us of the regular weeks of harvest.’

25Your wrongdoings have kept these away;

your sins have deprived you of good.

26“Among my people are the wicked

who lie in wait like men who snare birds

and like those who set traps to catch people.

27Like cages full of birds,

their houses are full of deceit;

they have become rich and powerful

28and have grown fat and sleek.

Their evil deeds have no limit;

they do not seek justice.

They do not promote the case of the fatherless;

they do not defend the just cause of the poor.

29Should I not punish them for this?”

declares the Lord.

“Should I not avenge myself

on such a nation as this?

30“A horrible and shocking thing

has happened in the land:

31The prophets prophesy lies,

the priests rule by their own authority,

and my people love it this way.

But what will you do in the end?