Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

keras · Sep 13, 2019

keras said:
Please tell us why you object to this scenario.

To Contenders Edge,
The prophesies that plainly tell us how it will be the Lord's faithful Christian people who will occupy all of the holy Land in the end times, are rejected or ignored by you and all who want God to take them to heaven instead of facing their responsibilities on earth.
There are verses that confirm the whereabouts of God's holy people during the end times; Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 12:6-17 confirms that they are the Christian peoples.

But there are no verses that say God will take His people to heaven.

jgr · Sep 13, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
But it is not restricted to that definition. It depends on how it is applied. For example, restoring a house or a car requires there to be a house or a car that is a shell of its former self to be restored to a much better condition; a non-functioning car to be rebuilt into a functioning car or a non-live-able house into a live-able home.

In that same sense, this present earth need not be made non-existent to be restored to a much better state.

Thayer connected the demolition with the resurrection of the dead and the last judgment.

What happens to the world after the last judgment?

BABerean2 · Sep 13, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
But Revelation chapter 11 describes an entire people in unbelief until a series of events take place that cause them to fear God and give glory to Him at which point, the city of Jerusalem is set to cease being the "Sodom" and "Egypt" that it is being figuratively called at that time.

Can you show a reference to the earthly city of Jerusalem after Revelation chapter 11, which will confirm your statement above?

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BABerean2 · Sep 13, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
When God has declared that He will never again uproot the people of Israel from their homeland ever again, (Ezek. 37:25,

How long is "forever"?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

The section of the chapter above is about the future bodily resurrection of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30.
This provides the context of the rest of the passage.

Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (Could it be much clearer above?)

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
(The New Covenant is made with both Israel and Judah. See Jeremiah 31:31-34. Both are made one stick under the New Covenant.)

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (See Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
(Is this a reference to a revived King David, or is it a reference to David's offspring found in Matthew 1:1? Who is the one shepherd in John 10:16?)

Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
(See Hebrews 11:15-16. How long is "forever"?)

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. (What is the "everlasting" covenant in Hebrews 13:20?)

Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Who is the "tabernacle" of the New Covenant? The end of the verse is quoted in the New Covenant passage found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. (How long is "forever"?)

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Danoh · Sep 14, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Thank you for your input. I looked up the passages you cited and will be sure to make use of the passages you said I should have used when an opportunity presents itself where those passages are best helpful.

As for when the scripture says the Church was actually established, I have reasons from the scripture for believing that it was officially established by Christ on the day He ascended into Heaven or even on the day of Pentecost. But I am not going to debate that here because it is not related to the topic of this thread, but if you are interested in why I believe the body of Christ was officially established before the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, I am more than happy to discuss that in another setting. Just click on "Contender's Edge" and hit the "start a conversation" option if you wish.

Eventually, as with any other thread, this one will eventually reach its conclusion. Some participants will resign to agreeing to disagree, to which I will agree, and then there will be some who will throw a fit and storm off this thread in a rage.

But there are participants besides myself that are not going to depart and end their part in this discussion that easily.

One participant is a writer in Bible prophecy studies. If he just walks out, that is going to make him look weak in the eyes of his followers, his detractors will view that as a loss in the debate on his part, and such a decision could come back to haunt him in the long run as far as his credibility is concerned in other venues where his name is present. So he is going to have figure out how he can conclude his role in this thread with as much class honor as he can.

The founder of this thread obviously cannot be expected to just walk out either. If he did that, it would make it appear as though he had been defeated on his own turf and even if he did not think of himself as having lost the debate, any non-participating viewers of this thread might think otherwise.

If I had started a thread, which I have not done yet, I couldn't just abandon it anytime someone challenges a viewpoint to which I hold because I know that would damage my credibility and reputation in any other thread or blog I post on this forum and people are not going to be as inclined to read or listen to anything someone, who appears to have been soundly defeated in a debate on their own thread, has to say elsewhere as they will someone who stands firm and goes the complete distance; to whatever conclusion it leads.

I cannot just simply abandon this thread either because I do plan to begin to start a series of blogposts on this forum myself if God wills and I happen to have recently published an external blogsite myself with its name present on another social media platform as well and which will have a presence in other venues as well if the Lord wills.

Granted that my blogsite has not yet received much attention; it has only been active for two months and is the work of an amateur, but if the Lord decides to bring attention to it, what I say and how I conduct myself here and now, could come have consequences for the reputation of my blogsite in the future especially if becomes elevated to a full-fledged ministry; not that I am going so far as to give it that label until other people begin to recognize it as such.

We are being watched and followed by non-participating viewers who are going to judge each participant by their conduct and how well each person is able to present their case for where they stand on the topic of this thread and any other thread where they are present.

There are people on both sides of any debate who will not change their minds, but there are people who are more fair-minded and weighing the facts of all sides presented and who will ultimately side with where they feel the evidence best points. And they will be judging each participant by how they conclude their role in this thread and by the eventual conclusion of this thread.

While I do not question whether any participant has confidence in the faithfulness of God, any doctrine that is embraced and propagated can and does have serious ramifications for how the character of God is viewed, how much trust is placed in the authority of scripture regarding everything it says, and ultimately, faith in the Gospel.

For the Preterist, Israel is just a strip of land on the coast of the Mediterranean sea with presently little significance, but for the Pre-millennial, it is much more in that the integrity of God is tied to fulfilling all that He has said that He is going to do concerning the land and the people He gave it to.

But to say that the Church has replaced Israel as a nation and that God has cast off the Jewish people is to accuse Him of not being faithful in fulfilling His promises when He has declared and showed Himself faithful (Heb. 10:26) and that He is given to change when He has said otherwise (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8)

If God is faithful in keeping promises made to one group of people, we can trust that He will do the same for the rest of us. But if He does not fulfill all that He has said in regards to one group of people, what does that mean for the rest of us?

Your last paragraph, there, reminds me of the Apostle Paul's attitude to that sort of thing...

"...what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Romans 3: 3, 4.

That was written over two thousand years ago - long before any of us came along to feel the need to raise a fuss over whether or not "the faith of God" might or might not end up in question.

As for one of your other points hereinabove, I'm not interested in a debate on here on where the Body began, or not; I was more merely just letting you know I too hold a Dispensational view of things.

I understand your obvious frustration with others on here, it's just no longer a frustration I experience on any of these issues.

As Paul well noted...

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

claninja · Sep 15, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
But those 613 laws are contained in the first five books of the Bible; four out of the five being where we find most of them.

Right, but I'm specifically talking about the 613 commandments of moses and the nation of Israel's agreement to obey them in order to receive earthly blessing from God.

Contenders Edge said:
They also faced restoration to upon repentance as well; the blessings and their homeland were never truly lost to them forever, but only withheld until they sincerely began seeking their Maker. But just because the Old Covenant is replaced with the new, that does not mean the blessings and promises pertaining to them specifically were canceled out with the Old Covenant when they can still receive them under a new and better Covenant provided that they enter into the New Covenant.

Part of the old covenant agreement was WHEN Israel repented after the curses had been poured out THEN God would restore them to land and circumcise their hearts.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 When all these things come upon you—the blessings and curses I have set before you—and you call them to mind in all the nations to which the LORD your God has banished you, and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey His voice with all your heart and all your soul according to everything I am giving you today, hen He will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the ends of the earth, He will gather you and return you from there. And the LORD your God will bring you into the land your fathers possessed, and you will take possession of it. He will cause you to prosper and multiply more than your fathers. The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Contenders Edge said:
"Many" does not mean "all" but other than that, there is no disagreement as the rest of what you have stated is confirmed by scripture.

I know many does not mean all, that's why I used many and not all. But I'm glad we agree that the 613 commandments of Moses have changed.

Contenders Edge said:
That might be taken to mean that the 613 commandments were either inferior or superior to the covenant. That which was inferior died with the Old Covenant and that which was superior outlasted the Old Covenant.

Again, a covenant is an agreement between 2 parties, with responsibilities on both sides. Israel's responsibilities were to follow the 613 commands of moses. God's responsibilities were to bless or curse Israel CONDITIONAL to their obedience or disobedience of the 613 commandments of moses (deuteronomy 28). So while the law/promises are not themselves the agreement, the are intimately a part of that agreement.

This agreement, to obey all 613 commands of moses, is glorious, albeit a ministry of death, as no one (except Christ) can perfectly follow the law.

2 corinthians 3:9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

Hebrews 8:6-7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says

Contenders Edge said:
Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them. (Mt. 5:17) Change could be perceived as canceling out what was already established law unless we understand under what sense the law was changed. If you are referring to change regarding the following that you previously mentioned:

" many parts of the 613 commandments were changed (priest hood - Hebrews 7; sacrifices and temple worship - Hebrews 10; feasts, Sabbaths, new moons, food, drink - colossians 2, temple services, circumcision, etc...)"

then I would agree with you. But if the law does not equal the covenant of which they are a part, then neither do the promises associated with it, which means the promises can outlast the covenant if they are superior to it, and if they are superior to one covenant, they can be carried over into another covenant.

Right, Christ did not come destroy the law and prophets. If He came to destroy the law and prophets, then everything they pointed to would have been in vain.

If I promised to have a pizza delivered at 7pm to your residence, but instead a basket of laundry shows up, my promise is destroyed. However, if the pizza is delivered right at 7pm, the promise is fulfilled.

Christ came to bring the law and prophets to fulfillment or completion. The greek word fulfill is pleroo and it means: accomplish, complete, fulfill

Thus, Christ fulfilled/completed the law and the prophets, perfectly. Everything they had pointed to was found fulfilled in his ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit.

So because the 613 commandments found their completion in Christ, there was no longer a need for a levitical priest hood (hebrews 7:12), there was no longer a need for feasts or festivals (colossians 2:17), there was no longer a need for animal sacrifices (hebrews 10:8-9,18) , there was no longer a need for the sabbaths (colossians 2:17), there was no longer a need for food, drink or washing rituals (colossians 2:17, hebrews 9:10) , there was no longer a need for circumcision by the hand (1 corinthians 7:19) , there was no longer a need to worship in a physical temple building. (john 4:21-24) Everything the law had pointed to was fulfilled in Christ, and because it was fulfilled in Christ, it has been fulfilled in those who are in Christ (romans 8:4).

Contenders Edge said:
The scriptures have made clear that the Old Covenant animal sacrifices done for sin atonement are no longer necessary as they have been superseded by an infinitely superior sacrifice. The priesthood is no longer confined to the tribe of Levi because we are all priests in Christ. We are no longer required to rest on a certain day of the week since not all people are able to rest on the one designated day of rest that the Jews observe, nor are we bound to dietary and cleanliness laws (though your health might profit from observing them) and we are not required to observe new moons and certain holidays although we could all use a holiday every now and then

I agee, so what is the law that written on the hearts and minds of the house of Israel and Judah under the new covenant?

Hebrews 8:8-12 But God found fault with the people and said: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not abide by My covenant, and I disregarded them, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.

Well, considering that Christ fulfilled/completed the 613 commands, which are in turn fulfilled in those who are in Christ, I would argue the law that is written on the minds and hearts under the new covenant is loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Mark 12:30-31 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these

Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Contenders Edge said:
But promises are never canceled out. They are fulfilled. Prophecies, a great deal of which center around the nation and people of Israel, are never nullified. It may be possible for fulfillments to be delayed, but they eventually come to pass and while much has come to pass, not all things, including those things pertaining to Israel, have come to pass and yet they must come to pass in order for the faithfulness and Word of God to be upheld.

So let's get something straight. I believe ALL the promises of God find their yes in Christ.

2 corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.

The promises (plural) were to abraham and his offspring, who is Christ (galatians 3:16). As paul uses the plural form of promise, then the promises (plural) made to abraham and the singular from of offspring in Genesis are to Christ. This would include the land. And thus because the earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of (1 corinthians 10:26), and Christ was made Lord (acts 2:36), then the earth his His, which includes the land of Israel and thus fulfilling the promise to Abraham.

So, with that understanding we turn to the old covenant, which came 430 years after the promises given to Abraham. 1.) The old covenant prophesied of blessing and curses being poured out on the nation of Israel (Deuteronomy 30:1). 2.) The old covenant then prophesied of land restoration following the curses being poured out (deuteronomy 30:2-4). 3.) The old covenant then prophesied of circumcised hearts (deuteronomy 30:5-6).

1.) the blessings were poured out on Israel when they obeyed and curses when they disobeyed
1 kings 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, who has given rest to His people Israel according to all that He promised. Not one word has failed of all the good promises He made through His servant Moses.

Daniel 9:13 Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our iniquities and giving attention to Your truth

2.) The fortunes of Jacob were restored
Psalm 85:1 you showed favor to Your land, O LORD; You restored the fortunes of Jacob.

3.) Circumcision of the heart was/is performed by God himself, in the ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit

Colossians 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

Romans 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

So we can see that land restoration from Babylon was meant solely for the purpose of the coming of Christ in the flesh, so that he could fulfill everything that was written about him (luke 24:44) in the law, the psalms, the prophets, the dreams, visions, and riddles. If the nation of Israel had not been in the land of Israel in the 1st century, then Christ could not have fulfilled what was written about him.

The land being an "everlasting possession" to Abraham's offspring is not fulfilled in the nation of Israel, but in Christ who has all authority ON EARTH and in heaven.

Contenders Edge said:
Even if there is no explicit mention of land restoration in the New Testament, that still does not give anyone grounds to say that "land restoration" has been lost to the people of Israel.

I'm glad you can admit that land restoration is not explicitly mentioned in the NT.

Contenders Edge said:
There is no evidence to indicate that the promise and foretelling of land restoration and sovereign status died with the Old Covenant.

Is land restoration a part of the old covenant?

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Contenders Edge said:
Among the things listed that have been canceled with the Old Covenant, "land restoration" is not listed among them. The claim that the blessings and promises pertaining to the nation of Israel have been lost to them is based upon an assumption which is every bit as debatable as you claim my assertion of "land restoration" being indicated by certain New Testament passages and because your declaration of "land restoration" no longer being effect is based on an assumption, your argument is not proven and is further refuted by the present existence of the Jewish state of Israel.

Was land restoration a part of the old covenant? yes: deuteronomy 30:1-6. Scripture literally tells us the old covenant is obsolete in hebrews 8:13. What more evidence do we need?

I could say the destruction of the temple is evidence of the coming judgment of Christ on the nation of Israel, and yet you'll still disagree, so how is a modern day nation of Israel that has no verifiable connection to pre-desolation hebrews supposed to convince me?

What is clear is that anyone, regardless of race, nationality, or tribal status is Abraham's offspring if they are in Christ.

Contenders Edge said:
Paul said in Romans 11:12 that if the diminishing of them be the riches of the world, "how much more their fulness?" If we are to understand what Paul means by their fullness, we would have to examine all scriptures pertaining to what would be the evidence of that fullness and that requires consulting the Old Testament The establishment of the Jews in their homeland and their prosperity has always served as evidence of their fullness and if God brings to pass even these things pertaining to Israel, we can be ever more certain that all things pertaining to us who are in Christ shall also come to pass.

You are attempting to new wine in an old wine skin. Romans 11:15 tells us exactly what their "fullness" is: life from the dead. It doesn't mention land restoration.

But what is clear, as written by a Jew, the true promise land is not an earthly one, but a heavenly
Hebrews 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Contenders Edge · Sep 15, 2019

claninja said:
I would argue his audience was Israel (jew and grafted in gentile)

1.) his ministry was primarily to the Jews
Galatians 2:8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),

2.) He applies hosea 1 to them.
1 Peter 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

3.) His audience it to keep their conduct among the GENTILES honorable
1 Peter 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.

While it is true that Peter's ministry was directed predominantly towards the Jews, roughly a third of the way through the book of Acts, his ministry began to expand towards the Gentiles as well.
In the opening salutation in his first epistle, Peter calls those to whom he is writing "strangers." No Jew or Israelite is ever called a stranger.

Strangers were Gentiles who either lived among the people of Israel or were simply staying among them for a temporary time. Whoever these people were, they were neither native to Israel or any of the lands under Roman jurisdiction. Why else would they be called strangers, which was also a term to describe foreigners?

The only conclusion is that the people to whom Peter was writing were foreign to the Roman empire and were a people of mix blood who might not have been accepted by either Jew or Gentile.

It is not unheard of for people being descended from two other peoples and yet not be claimed as one of either. Perhaps this group of people did not see themselves as being either Jew or Gentile either.

The scripture does not tell us much about this particular group. Perhaps history might provide more insight. What is important is that they were accepted as fellow followers of Christ.

claninja said:
This completely ignores exodus 19:6, which is applied to Israel and peter's audience. You argument does not surmount this.

It is applied to both the people of Israel and the Church except the difference between the two is that their priesthood was limited to the tribe of Levi. The priesthood of the Church extends to all who accept Jesus.

claninja said:
Please provide specific verse where Jesus provides the explanation of the parable of the hidden treasure. I can't seem to find it.

Then you have missed the point of the parable which teaches that the Kingdom of Heaven should mean so much that, if necessary, we should be willing to sacrifice all that we have for it. The eternal should be more valuable than anything that we have on earth which is only temporary.

claninja said:
Objectively, land restoration is not found in romans 11:12. If we actually look at the verse, it doesn't mention anything about the land.
The only way for you to claim that it is about land restoration as to what is "implied" in romans 11:12 is to interpret it, and this is subjective based on your eschatological bias.
As scripture tells us being born again in Christ is life from the dead, not land restoration.
If land restoration was evidence of acceptance of Christ, then why Isn't modern day Israel a Christian majority?

Objectively, the "cancellization" of land restoration is not found in scripture either. The only way for you to claim that the land of Israel is forever lost to its people is to assume that it has been based upon the abolishing of the Old Covenant and that assumption is based just as much on an eschatological bias as you have accused me of imposing on the scriptures when it is the very integrity of God around which this sort of debate actually centers; maybe not for the Preterist, but for the Pre-mil/Dispensationalist.

And what matters is that Christians will not continue to remain a minority in Israel. When Christ returns, the nation of Israel will be unanimously Christian. For what other purpose would there be to bring Israel back to its homeland except to fulfill forthcoming prophecies for which their role is required?

claninja said:
Paul states Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 are fulfilled with the gentiles being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy, would you agree?

While there is no disputing that in and of itself, the debate is about whether or not the Gentiles of whom Paul is speaking are of any relation to the ten northern tribes of Israel as you have claimed.

Who is the grammatical historical subject of hosea 1:10 and 2:23?

Hosea is primarily pertaining to the northern kingdom of Israel and their eventual reconciliation to God and restoration but Hosea 2:23 appears to be contextually more of a reference to the Gentiles than 1:10 is. Having studied both, it appears Paul might have more likely been citing 2:23 rather than 1:10 considering that it was during a time in history the scriptures had not yet been divided by chapter and verse.

claninja said:

Life from the dead, which happens to all that come to Christ.

Click to expand...

True as it pertains anyone who comes to Christ, but as it pertains to a nation, spiritual transformation will be followed by prosperity in their own right. As it pertains to Israel, their spiritual resurrection will be followed by an acquiring of all that God has willed for them in terms of the extent of their territory, prosperity, and a status of high degree as a nation.

claninja said:

Whatever tribe the foreigner lives in, that is where they will inherit the land.

Ezekiel 47:23 In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

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I checked the passage and as far as that goes you are right.

claninja said:

I agree that circumcision was a seal of his righteousness by faith. But it was also a covenant

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This is what the entirety of the Abrahamic covenant is:

"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee and will multiply thee exceedingly...behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee and I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." (Gen. 17:1-10)

God's covenant with Abraham was that He would be the father of many nations and that his descendants would be many provided Abraham continued to faithfully follow the Lord and obey him. Circumcision was that act of obedience that sealed the deal. It was an act that finalized the covenant.

claninja said:

I have no disagreement that tribal intermingling occurred or that it is possible that Jesus had DNA from the tribe of levi. But we should look at how one could be a high priest according to the law.

According to the law, it is by patriarchal descent.
Leviticus 16:32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest shall make atonement. He will put on the sacred linen garments

Thus, if one's father was a high priest, then the son could be a high priest. Matriarchal descent did not count. If one had a mother from the line of aaron, but no father from the line of aaron, then they could not be a high priest.

We have Jesus' genealolgy, which has no patriarch from the line of aaron. Thus, according to the law, Jesus could not be a high priest. Thus the law was changed (Hebrews 7), so that Jesus could be our high priest.

And so, the aaron priesthood is not forever.

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Because Jesus was a descendant of Levi and, according to Mary's family ties, even of the order of Aaron, the order of Aaron does live on forever as God said it would in that sense. But the law is changed in the sense that Jesus is also of the order of Melchizedek in the sense that He has no beginning or end and therefore is not of the order of Aaron because He was before the priesthood of Aaron.

Melchizedek was a mysterious figure of whom almost nothing is known except that he served as both a king and a high priest and therefore serves as a picture of the eternal Christ and His everlasting Priesthood.

Like Melchizedek, who was a high priest, and like Aaron, who was a high priest, Christ is our High Priest. Aaron's priesthood was temporary in the sense that its ongoing sacrificial system was made null and void by the New Covenant established by the Eternal High Priest whose sacrifice was sufficient for all sins and unlike the order of Aaron whose priesthood was confined to a tribe and lineage, the priesthood of believers is extended to all who come to Christ no matter what their background or lineage.

The priesthood of Aaron continues to live on by way of descent on Mary's side yet the law was changed by way of descent from the line of Judah on the side of King David in the sense that no priest had ever come out of the line of Judah, or from any other lineage but the tribe of Levi for that matter, but Jesus came from both lines with the most emphasis being placed on the line of Judah, not only because that line is the predominant line, but because of His Kingship which requires descent from Judah in order to fulfill prophecy and because David was promised a descendant who would forever sit upon his throne which will find its fulfillment in Christ.

claninja said:

It is to strike down the nations. Now will you do the courtesy of answering the question I asked? Is the sword in Jesus mouth a literal sword?

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So, you know this sword, like any other sword, is given the power to kill and destroy, but there is something else about this sword that tells us whether it is literal or symbolic. One thing for sure, this sword, be it literal, or symbolic, will kill literally. Birds do not feed on figurative corpses but only literal ones.

claninja said:

The answer is the resurrection. David foreseeing that God would place a descendant on his throne spoke about the resurrection. Thus, it is fulfilled.

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But we are both referring to the same Christ and if we are referring to the same Christ who rose from the dead, then why split hairs?

claninja said:

The contextual evidence?, you must not be looking at the actual verse in greek

Strong's is a concordance, correct? Does the concordance contain the actual greek verse of galatians 3:16?

here is the link to the actual verse in greek, which contains spermati (singular form) and NOT sperma.

Galatians 3:16 Greek Text Analysis

here is the actual verse in greek, as we can see, it is spermati and not sperma.

τῷ δὲ Ἀβραὰμ ἐρρέθησαν αἱ ἐπαγγελίαι καὶ τῷ σπέρματι αὐτοῦ. οὐ λέγει Καὶ τοῖς σπέρμασιν, ὡς ἐπὶ πολλῶν, ἀλλ’ ὡς ἐφ’ ἑνός Καὶ τῷ σπέρματί σου, ὅς ἐστιν Χριστός.

σπέρματι - spermati (singular)

σπέρμα - sperma (root word)

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Then not all sources seem to agree because the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, which is not included in your cited source, does not include "Spermati" in its Greek definition listings but only "Sperma." Their reasoning for excluding "Spermati" from their definitions was probably based upon the context of Galatians 3:16 and possibly manuscripts also not included.

Again, what is most important, is that Paul makes it clear what "seed" he is talking about.

claninja said:

I agree, the prophets received visions/dreams. Thus John is the fulfillment of that part of the vision.

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In the sense that he fulfilled the part of the forerunner who was to herald the Messiah's coming, but he was only called Elijah in the figurative sense which was based upon the role he was serving.

claninja said:

I believe it is "being" fulfilled as it was being fulfilled in the 1st century. A part of Israel was hardened which lead to the crucifixion, and because of the crucifixion, salvation went to the nations. One needs to realize that the phrase "fullness of the nations" is from the OT, specifically.
Thus all Israel is saved by the gentiles (of whom some descended from Erphaim) being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy. This is an ongoing process.

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The "fullness" of nations could mean the completeness of nations which could still imply an addition of nations but contextually, the Geneva and King James versions of scripture suggest more clearly that nations would descend from Ephraim but there is no way to verify if this prophecy has yet been fulfilled because we do not know of any existing nations who trace their origins back to Ephraim, but that Paul said that God would make the Gentiles a witness to the Jews on behalf of the Gospel is in and of itself indisputable.

claninja said:

Does Jeremiah prophesy of Israel being sown, not to be destroyed, but to grow around the time of the new covenant?

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The following passages make it abundantly clear that Israel will never be destroyed:
Jer. 31:35-37, 33:20-26 And since their expansion did not happen under the Old Covenant, it will happen under the New Covenant

BABerean2 · Sep 15, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Objectively, the "cancellization" of land restoration is not found in scripture either.

No. But the fulfillment of the land promise is found below.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

When choosing between a piece of land on this rotten, sin-cursed world, that is burned up in 2 Peter 3:10-13, or a piece of permanent land in the passage above, which one is the better promise?

.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2019

keras said:
You like to throw prophesies into the past. But this one in Jeremiah is clearly unfulfilled and fits what will happen soon.
The Jewish State of Israel is in the most important part of the holy Land today, but in unbelief and apostasy. They WILL be uprooted and only the true faithful Christians, the Israelites of God, will occupy all of the holy Land.

Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

I do not know what version you are citing from but the Geneva and King James versions, corroborated by the Hebrew, read as follows:

"Thus said the Lord against all mine evil neighbours, that touch the inheritance which I have caused my people Israel to inherit; Behold, I will pluck them out of their land, and pluck out the house of Judah from among them. And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them every man to his heritage and every man to his land.

And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, The Lord liveth; as they taught my people to swear by Baal, then shall they be built in the midst of my people. But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the Lord."

Your citation places the inheritance of the promised land (will inherit) in the future tense. the Geneva and King James place it in the past tense. (I have caused my people to inherit)

Your citation also alters the following from verse 14. Your citation states, "I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the house of Judah as well" whereas the Geneva and King James clarify that it is the enemies of Israel who will be bereft of their own land and that He will deliver Judah out from among them.

This is also made even more clear in verse 15 where it is stated, "And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them every man to his heritage and every man to his land" whereas your citation omits "every man to his own land. Verses 14 and 15 make very clear that the wicked nations surrounding Israel will also be bereft of their own land, but that God will also turn and have compassion on them demonstrating that He loves the other nations just as much as He loves Israel, and furthermore invites them to turn to Him and worship Him as He has commanded the people of Israel.

In verse 16, the enemies of Israel are called upon to swear only by the name of the Lord in order to escape final destruction, just as they had taught Israel to "swear by Baal" which was omitted by your citation thereby also omitting insight into how Israel was led into idolatry in the first place.

Your citation also omits the following from the passage: "they shall be built in the midst of my people" provided that they make the God of Israel their God as well.

While in verse 17, your citation makes it appear as though the Lord might possibly destroy Israel once and for all, the Geneva and King James versions are more specific as to whom verse 17 refers:

"But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation." What nation is being referred to? Any of the nations surrounding Israel. But your citation omits that.

The version you cite from and the Geneva and King James versions cannot both be right. Personally, I do not trust any version of scripture that alters and omits that which versions drawing closer to the original texts contain.

keras said:
This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

Psalm 83 is not a prophecy but a prayer for deliverance. Your cited passages from Amos met their fulfillment in the judgment carried out by the Assyrians and Babylonians. The northern kingdom was carried into exile by the Assyrians. Judah later was carried into captivity by the Babylonians, with Jerusalem and Solomon's Temple being burnt with fire, and the remainder of the people fleeing into Egypt despite Jeremiah's pleas for them to not go there, (Jer. chapters 40-45) thus fulfilling also Jeremiah 10:18 and Isaiah 6:11-13 since the land was virtually uninhabited when the remainder of the people left. Furthermore, all of the nations mentioned in the cited passages of Amos had faced the judgment as foretold by Amos and there is nothing in Isaiah 29:4 about anyone hiding in underground bunkers.

Isaiah 43:10 simply states what purpose for which the people and nation of Israel were established and 49:8 is at least in part, a Messianic prophecy but may also be in reference to the exaltation of those among the people of Israel who had been regarded as the basest in status of all the people.

And though we have been referred to as Israel in the figurative or spiritual sense, never are we called Israel in the literal sense. There still remains a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church.

keras said:
The Sixth Seal will affect all of the world, but the initial strike onto the Middle East at mid day, Zephaniah 2:4, will virtually depopulate that entire area. Ezekiel 30:1-5
The new nation of Beulah, that will occupy the entire holy Land area, Isaiah 62:1-5, will comprise of faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9

Please tell us why you object to this scenario.

The cited passages from Ezekiel and Zephaniah may speak of judgment but not what you are referrring to. Those passages met their fulfillment through Babylon. The cited passages from Isaiah are not speaking about a new nation being formed, but a restored nation and people being given a new name. And again, we know that the great multitude standing before Christ are those saints who came out of the great tribulation. They are clearly martyrs. There is no contextual evidence in the cited passage from Revelation that this scene is taking place on earth and besides, who is to say that palm trees do not exist in heaven? Have you ever been there?

Every time I study the context of the passages you cite, they do not corroborate or point to what you claim they say.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2019

BABerean2 said:
No. But the fulfillment of the land promise is found below.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

When choosing between a piece of land on this rotten, sin-cursed world, that is burned up in 2 Peter 3:10-13, or a piece of permanent land in the passage above, which one is the better promise?

.

Do you not think that God is capable of cleaning up the land upon which He placed His name and making it a part of something much better?

BABerean2 · Sep 16, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Do you not think that God is capable of cleaning up the land upon which He placed His name and making it a part of something much better?

Do you think Peter was confused in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and do you think the author of the Book of Hebrews was confused in Hebrews 11:15-16?

.

keras · Sep 16, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
And though we have been referred to as Israel in the figurative or spiritual sense, never are we called Israel in the literal sense. There still remains a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church.

Sure; there is a distinction between the Jewish State of Israel, those apostate, LGBT, Jesus rejecting people and the faithful Christian Church; His true Israelites by faith, Romans 1:29 makes that perfectly clear.

Re Jeremiah 12:14-16, I did condense that passage, that did not change the message in any way.
As over 100 other prophesies tell us; there is soon to happen a terrible Judgment/punishment by fire, that will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land. Rejecting this warning is a serious mistake and leaves you unready for the great things the Lord has planned for His people.

Here is another prophecy about what will happen, in the order of events:
The Great Chapter of Isaiah 29:1-24:
Suddenly, in an instant punishment will come from the heavens. The Lord will act in His wrath against all those who make war against Jerusalem, all those who surround Israel. With a great noise amid flames of devouring fire, earthquakes and powerful storms, they will disappear like a dream, like a vision of the night – gone when you awake. So it will be with the horde of nations who attack the holy Land. They will crumble into dust and be blown away like chaff. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Revelation 6:12-17 This is quite a different event from Armageddon, it is the many prophesied Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a literal day of a Coronal Mass Ejection sunspot explosion. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

But, disaster will come to those who live in the Land, there will be mourning and tears when the Lord makes Jerusalem His fire altar. He will bring those people down, the survivors will hide underground, their voices will squeak out of the earth. Isaiah 31:5, Zechariah 13:8-9

The Lord’s people – Jews and Christians:

Because My people worship Me with empty words and pay Me lip service, while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human doctrines learnt by rote, therefore I shall shock them again and again. The wisdom of their learned people will vanish and all discernment will be lost. Matthew 11:25-26
Woe to those who try to hide their devious plans from the Lord. All those who say: Who can see what we do? Who knows our plans? Do not think your Maker is unaware of your doings, you are placing yourself higher than Him, if you think that. 1 Peter 3:12

Belief in wrong teaching leads to an inability to understand the truth:

If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded. Be drunk, but not with strong drink, for the Lord has poured upon you a spirit of deep stupor. He has closed your eyes to prophetic understanding and muffled your heads; your so called, wise teachers. For you the Prophetic vision of the end times is like a sealed book that you cannot read. Isaiah 6:9-10, Acts 13:41

The Word of the Lord to the descendants of Abraham, all the true Christian people of God:

This is no time for you to be distressed, not a time for you to be frightened, for you will praise and worship My Name, [Jesus] when you see what has been done in your midst. [1 Peter 1:5] You will hold sacred your Redeemer and regard your God with awe. THEN the confused will understand and those who refused instruction will believe the truth. Isaiah 32:3-4

The holy Land Regenerated: Ezekiel 36:8

In a very short time Lebanon [and all of the holy Land] will be brought back from ruin to like a garden land and good fertile land will be as common as scrubland is now. Joel 3:18
The Lord will send rain immediately after the terrible fires and earthquakes of the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, as described in Isaiah 30:25

The veil of misunderstanding will be lifted then: Isaiah 32:4

On that Day the deaf will hear with understanding the Words of scripture and the spiritually blinded will see the truth. The lowly will once again rejoice in the Lord and the poor will exult in the Holy One of Israel. For the ungodly and the arrogant will cease to exist. Those who are quick to find mischief and those who falsely accuse others or lay traps for the unwary; all these will be cut down and perish. Isaiah 66:17, 2 Peter 3:7

The Great Exodus of the Lord’s righteous people to their inheritance:

On that Day, [NOT the Return, but at the next prophesied event.] the Lord will exert His power a second time to recover the remnant of His people from wherever they are scattered around the world. Isaiah 49:12-13, Isaiah 66:20 He will make a sign to the nations and gather those dispersed of the House of Israel, [now the Christian peoples] He will assemble Judah’s scattered people and the enmity between Israel and Judah will cease. Ezekiel 37:13-28
Ref. REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Do you think Peter was confused in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and do you think the author of the Book of Hebrews was confused in Hebrews 11:15-16?

.

No but clearly you deny that God is all-powerful; a sad consequence of Preterism.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2019

keras said:
To Contenders Edge,
The prophesies that plainly tell us how it will be the Lord's faithful Christian people who will occupy all of the holy Land in the end times, are rejected or ignored by you and all who want God to take them to heaven instead of facing their responsibilities on earth.
There are verses that confirm the whereabouts of God's holy people during the end times; Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 12:6-17 confirms that they are the Christian peoples.

But there are no verses that say God will take His people to heaven.

There passages that state that God will take His people to Heaven at some point, but the rapture is not relevant to this thread. The passages cited say nothing of a refuge for most of God's people in the days of the forthcoming tribulation. In fact the vast majority of them endure the nightmarish persecution carried out against them by the Anti-Christ. The only ones who escape the horrific things that are destined to take place upon the earth are those who have received Him before those dark days commence.

BABerean2 · Sep 16, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
No but clearly you deny that God is all-powerful; a sad consequence of Preterism.

Unless the second Jewish temple is still standing, Christ was a "Partial-Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse.

Unless you think Christ was wrong, I have no choice except to have the same understanding of scripture.

Even though God is all powerful, there are things that God will not do because it is against His nature.
He will not say something in Hebrews 11:15-16, and then change his mind and not do it.

Your doctrine claims God did not fulfill all of His promises to the Jewish people when He sacrificed His Son at Calvary.
Apparently, you think the gift of eternal life, living in a perfect land is not enough.

The greatest error of your doctrine is the claim that modern Jews will one day come to salvation outside of the Church.
It is a claim not found in the Bible.

.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

The section of the chapter above is about the future bodily resurrection of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30.
This provides the context of the rest of the passage.

Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (Could it be much clearer above?)

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
(The New Covenant is made with both Israel and Judah. See Jeremiah 31:31-34. Both are made one stick under the New Covenant.)

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (See Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Ezekiel 37 and the cited passage from the Gospel of John are in no way speaking about the same resurrection. The resurrection in Ezekiel chapter 37 is a figurative resurrection which we are told represents the re-establishment of Israel back in their land and as a sovereign nation. John 5:72-30 is about a literal resurrection and judgment that is yet to take place.

BABerean2 said:
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
(Is this a reference to a revived King David, or is it a reference to David's offspring found in Matthew 1:1? Who is the one shepherd in John 10:16?)

Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
(See Hebrews 11:15-16. How long is "forever"?) How long is "forever"?
(How long is "forever"?)

Forever is never ending. Whether David is literal or figurative is debatable. We really will not know for sure until we witness the fulfillment.

BABerean2 said:
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Who is the "tabernacle" of the New Covenant? The end of the verse is quoted in the New Covenant passage found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

The tabernacle is a dwelling place from which Christ will rule the world. This tabernacle is applicable to both the Temple describe by Ezekiel (Ezek. chapters 40-47) and the New Jerusalem that will descend from Heaven when the new heavens and new earth are created. (Rev. chapters 21-22)

BABerean2 · Sep 16, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
The tabernacle is a dwelling place from which Christ will rule the world. This tabernacle is applicable to both the Temple describe by Ezekiel (Ezek. chapters 40-47) and the New Jerusalem that will descend from Heaven when the new heavens and new earth are created. (Rev. chapters 21-22)

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Try to ignore the "everlasting covenant" in Ezekiel chapter 37, since it is a reference to the New Covenant found in Hebrews 13:20.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

keras · Sep 16, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
There passages that state that God will take His people to Heaven at some point, but the rapture is not relevant to this thread.

I know the Bible very well; I have seen no passage that says the Lord will take His people to heaven. Quite a few say that idea is impossible. John 3:13

The 'rapture' is relevant to most end time discussion. It colors the thinking of all who believe it and because of gripping onto that false belief, they are incapable of understanding the truth. Isaiah 29:9-11

Contenders Edge said:
The passages cited say nothing of a refuge for most of God's people in the days of the forthcoming tribulation. In fact the vast majority of them endure the nightmarish persecution carried out against them by the Anti-Christ. The only ones who escape the horrific things that are destined to take place upon the earth are those who have received Him before those dark days commence.

Correct in that it will be only those who have become Christian now, that will be protected during all that must happen.
Wrong in that there is no refuge for His faithful people. Revelation 12:6 & 14

Have you read #1412? Do you deny the plain Words of Isaiah?

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Unless the second Jewish temple is still standing, Christ was a "Partial-Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse.

Unless you think Christ was wrong, I have no choice except to have the same understanding of scripture.

If a third Temple is erected in our day, it will undeniable proof that Christ is not a Preterist of any sort. The re-establishment of Israel as a nation should have already made that obvious to everyone.

BABerean2 said:
Even though God is all powerful, there are things that God will not do because it is against His nature.
He will not say something in Hebrews 11:15-16, and then change his mind and not do it.

He will not say something in the following passages (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15, Rom. 11:26, Mal. 3:6, Heb. 10:23) and change His mind and not do it either.

BABerean2 said:
Your doctrine claims God did not fulfill all of His promises to the Jewish people when He sacrificed His Son at Calvary.
Apparently, the gift of eternal life, and life in a perfect land is not enough...

What you call my doctrine, which I did not invent, makes no such claim. Salvation and eternal life were fulfilled at Calvary and by the resurrection of our Lord but were our bodies immediately redeemed at Calvary? Was the curse lifted from creation at Calvary? Did we receive our everlasting rewards and eternal treasures at Calvary? Did the judgment of the living and the dead take place at Calvary? Were the new Heavens and New Earth created at Calvary? Did the New Jerusalem descend from Heaven in that generation?

No, those things did not happen on that day, but it is because of Calvary that makes the fulfillment of those things certain.

If Christ has declared forgiveness of sins and eternal life for all those who repent of their sins and place their trust in Him alone for their salvation, then in Him we receive forgiveness, redemption, salvation, and eternal life.

If the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is declared sufficient to take away all sins for all time, then it is sufficient.

If a perfect world is destined to come, then we will one day live in that world with Christ.

If God promised Israel that they would forever exist in their homeland as a sovereign nation, then that is what is going to happen.

If He has said that all of Israel would eventually enter into the New Covenant, that is what will happen.

If God has said that they will never be driven from their homeland ever again, then they never will.

When God has made a promise, no matter how small or great, whether it be the eventual restoration of Israel as a nation in their own land or our salvation in Christ, we know the promises fulfilled and prophecies foretold are not fulfilled symbolically, they are fulfilled literally according to what has been promised and declared.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Try to ignore the "everlasting covenant" in Ezekiel chapter 37, since it is a reference to the New Covenant found in Hebrews 13:20.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

No one is ignoring the everlasting covenant. That in and of itself, is not what is being debated. What is being debated is whether or not the promise of land restoration to the Jews is still in effect and what that means as it relates to the integrity of our God.

Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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