Faith and Obedience

Jan001

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You are correct here. In order to be justified, you have to love the Lord with all your heart, life and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. Unless you do this, you will be condemned because it is a command of Christ.

But there is a catch...

We must love God to the standard in which Christ loves His Father, and we must love our neighbor to the standard in which Christ loves us. This is a perfect standard, In fact, it is not the other person who is our neighbor as such, but we are neighbors to every other person, including our enemies, and we are required to have a perfect, faultless love for them. We have no problem about loving ourselves, and we will ensure that we will never do ourselves harm if we can help it.

Unless we are able to do this to the standard of perfection that Jesus has, we will fall short and be condemned.

So, if anyone is teaching that we should love God with all our hearts, life, and strength, and love all others, including our enemies as we love ourselves, then go and do it, and do it perfectly yourself to prove it can be done to perfection.

We are commanded to continually STRIVE for perfection while we are on earth. If we do this, then after death, God's consuming fire will purge any and all our remaining imperfections from our souls. Then after our souls are perfected by this purging fire, we will be approved worthy to enter into eternal life and see God the Father.

1 John 2:1
I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; rsv

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. rsv

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. rsv

Matthew 7:11-14
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. 3 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. rsv

1 Corinthians 3:11-17
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are. rsv

Hebrews 12:22-29
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 His voice then shook the earth; but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of what is shaken, as of what has been made, in order that what cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
 
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It is so easy to pigeon hole people isn't it?

Labeling the truth of something does not mean one is trying to pigeonhole something always.

Do you believe in Universalism?
That everyone will be saved?
If not, then you need to label which paths or roads are not the way of Christ.

You said:
This is one of the problems with factions--the spirit behind it seeks to build walls between brothers and sisters and to set one against the other. This is the greatest sorrow of the 'Church Age' and what grieves our Father more than any other.
I will share that dream the Lord sent some years ago. I mentioned it in that other thread I added to.

Not at all. Paul says there are those who preach another Jesus, and another gospel.

You said:
#1. No--'the devils believe and tremble'

So it's not Sola Fide or Faith Alone (i.e. a Belief Alone) as Protestants claim?

You said:
#2. Yes--to those who God made eternally secure.

But why does God gives us warnings of our spiritual destruction in the Bible if we are eternally secure?

Matthew 5:28-30.
Matthew 6:15.
Matthew 12:37.
Romans 8:13.
Romans 11:21-22.
1 John 3:15.
Hebrews 12:14.
Revelation 21:8.

#3. Yes--but the question is leading the witness.

If you believe future sin is forgiven you, then there is no need to ever do good works and or to live holy. One can live however they like as long as they believe in Jesus.

George Sodini believed future sin was forgiven him. He believed he would be forgiven of his future sins that he was about to commit. He wrote in his own suicide letter that he would be forgiven for his murders and his own suicide.

Check out this article here:
George Sodini.

You said:
#4. Yes--But again, the question itself suggests a lack of understanding

I would say the contrary is true. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4). Also, it only took one sin to cause spiritual death for Adam and Eve and to place man in the sinful state that man is in. Ananias and Sapphira also prove that you can be condemned by just one sin, as well. For the church feared greatly over their death. Fear does not make sense if they were unbelievers or if they were securely in the arms of Jesus. Fear only makes sense if the same thing can happen to them.

You said:
A thing to consider...what is the Holy Spirit's role in this age?
1. To convict of sin
2. To point to and glorify Christ.

Anything else--anything at all--and He is not involved. This is the metric that we all need to keep in mind as we walk. The vast majority of the 'activity' within christendom does not fit within this metric. We can and ought to judge ourselves, as we will one day judge a great deal more.

We have to live holy. If not, nobody will see the Lord (See Hebrews 12:14). The believer who did good works in Christ's name did not make it because he also worked iniquity or sin (See Matthew 7:23).
 
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huiothesia

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Wow! I wish we could sit down and talk for a few months and work through all of these things that you keep going on about. So much of your responses and bible quotes are responding to things that I am not saying and others are not consistent with an understanding of the Cross and the work of Christ. Or it seems so to me.

Let me ask you this. Please try to answer in your own words. OK?

What do you need grace for? We must first agree that grace means unmerited favor. Correct?
I mean 'you' personally. Perhaps it is easier to ask--where does grace start and end for 'you'?
Again--in your own words.
 
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Wow! I wish we could sit down and talk for a few months and work through all of these things that you keep going on about. So much of your responses and bible quotes are responding to things that I am not saying and others are not consistent with an understanding of the Cross and the work of Christ. Or it seems so to me.

Let me ask you this. Please try to answer in your own words. OK?

What do you need grace for? We must first agree that grace means unmerited favor. Correct?
I mean 'you' personally. Perhaps it is easier to ask--where does grace start and end for 'you'?
Again--in your own words.

Sorry. That's not going to work. I already first asked you to try to address the verses or explain them in light of your belief.
 
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huiothesia

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The following verses answer all of those that you posted.
John:
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 “I am the bread of life. 49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 “This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Everything in the topic and those things that you have raised about works, sin, obedience, forgiveness, faithfulness, etc. Need to fall into step with the Reality of Life. Divine Life. All of those doctrinal points and scriptures need to be squared with what the Lord said in John 5.
You asked if I believe the scriptures you posted...of course I do. I am saying that they don't mean what you think they do.
Do you believe what the Lord said as recorded in John 5?

Again--you assume many things.
You assumed because I say my future sins are forgiven, that I mean to say its OK to sin. I didn't say that. That is foolish.

You assume that I think I am saved by faith or obedience alone in the context of works. I didn't say that either. I don't recognize this as an argument at all because it is based on a fundamental misunderstanding. Proponents of works being required for salvation have the cart before the horse and make a distinction that is improper. The works that result from and ordained by the Father are an integral part of and result of our salvation...our being placed into Christ and the fact that our Nature has been changed. We, that the Father has chosen to be 'In Christ' in the church age, have a New Name. That new Name is a New Nature. We are no longer the Old Man, but a New Man and this New Man has a different Nature and the works that follow are of that Nature. Those works are increased as we Abide in Him. Abide, remain, cling to, draw close to continually. Contrast this with our carnal attempts at pleasing God and Law.
One is the work of the flesh and one is the result of the New nature and a walk in the Spirit.

We have this treasure in earthen vessels and our 'minds' are not yet entirely renewed. Our minds are in a process of being renewed as we learn to walk in obedience and the light that He provides each of us.
It can be said that Christ--the Life that we have been given 'outworks'--one degree of glory to another.
We confess our sins and we are forgiven those sins. We all sin always because we are are still in the earthen vessels and unrenewed minds as mentioned above. Perhaps not always willful sin, but nonetheless we do. We fall short not knowing. The blood covers these things.
We 'are' the righteousness of God in Christ.
An individual who has been drawn by the Father into Christ has his/her heart changed and the result is a desire to please God. This is variable depending on the vessel and God's own will. How the 'free will' thing works is beside the point.

Having said these things===no absolutely not====we are not saved by works. We are saved by the Father.
Some of our works are saved. We are 'saved' 'for' those good works that the Father has ordained--not saved 'by them'.

All of those things that both Jesus and the apostles said in the letters have to square up with fundamental Truth.
Understand first, the Truth, and all the rest can begin to be seen in the 'Light'. The Light of Life.

What do you suppose the following verses mean?
Eph. 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.



Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Heb. 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

This scripture (Heb. 5:14) points to the reality that we can misunderstand what we think may be "clear bible". We are not exempt from the possibility of error and christendom is rife with it.

Our Lord instructed us regarding these things by telling us to:
Mark 10:15 “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.

This is not referring to salvation, but rather to a walking under the reign of the Kingdom. Put another way--experiencing the kingdom and all that the purview of a walk in the Spirit affords.
 
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Jan001

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Wow! I wish we could sit down and talk for a few months and work through all of these things that you keep going on about. So much of your responses and bible quotes are responding to things that I am not saying and others are not consistent with an understanding of the Cross and the work of Christ. Or it seems so to me.

Let me ask you this. Please try to answer in your own words. OK?

What do you need grace for? We must first agree that grace means unmerited favor. Correct?
I mean 'you' personally. Perhaps it is easier to ask--where does grace start and end for 'you'?
Again--in your own words.

1. Jesus first saved me as His gift to me by washing away all the sins present on my soul through the baptism He commanded in Matthew 28:18-20. I did not do anything and could not do anything to merit or earn this gift.

2. As the result of His commanded baptism, the Holy Spirit moved into my soul/spirit.
It is this Sanctifying Grace (the Holy Spirit's abiding presence within me) which continues to save me.

3. When I die, if the Holy Spirit of Grace is still abiding in me, Jesus will approve me to enter/inherit eternal life.
 
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Jan001

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The following verses answer all of those that you posted.
John:
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 “I am the bread of life. 49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 “This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Everything in the topic and those things that you have raised about works, sin, obedience, forgiveness, faithfulness, etc. Need to fall into step with the Reality of Life. Divine Life. All of those doctrinal points and scriptures need to be squared with what the Lord said in John 5.
You asked if I believe the scriptures you posted...of course I do. I am saying that they don't mean what you think they do.
Do you believe what the Lord said as recorded in John 5?

Again--you assume many things.
You assumed because I say my future sins are forgiven, that I mean to say its OK to sin. I didn't say that. That is foolish.

You assume that I think I am saved by faith or obedience alone in the context of works. I didn't say that either. I don't recognize this as an argument at all because it is based on a fundamental misunderstanding. Proponents of works being required for salvation have the cart before the horse and make a distinction that is improper. The works that result from and ordained by the Father are an integral part of and result of our salvation...our being placed into Christ and the fact that our Nature has been changed. We, that the Father has chosen to be 'In Christ' in the church age, have a New Name. That new Name is a New Nature. We are no longer the Old Man, but a New Man and this New Man has a different Nature and the works that follow are of that Nature. Those works are increased as we Abide in Him. Abide, remain, cling to, draw close to continually. Contrast this with our carnal attempts at pleasing God and Law.
One is the work of the flesh and one is the result of the New nature and a walk in the Spirit.

We have this treasure in earthen vessels and our 'minds' are not yet entirely renewed. Our minds are in a process of being renewed as we learn to walk in obedience and the light that He provides each of us.
It can be said that Christ--the Life that we have been given 'outworks'--one degree of glory to another.
We confess our sins and we are forgiven those sins. We all sin always because we are are still in the earthen vessels and unrenewed minds as mentioned above. Perhaps not always willful sin, but nonetheless we do. We fall short not knowing. The blood covers these things.
We 'are' the righteousness of God in Christ.
An individual who has been drawn by the Father into Christ has his/her heart changed and the result is a desire to please God. This is variable depending on the vessel and God's own will. How the 'free will' thing works is beside the point.

Having said these things===no absolutely not====we are not saved by works. We are saved by the Father.
Some of our works are saved. We are 'saved' 'for' those good works that the Father has ordained--not saved 'by them'.

All of those things that both Jesus and the apostles said in the letters have to square up with fundamental Truth.
Understand first, the Truth, and all the rest can begin to be seen in the 'Light'. The Light of Life.

What do you suppose the following verses mean?
Eph. 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.



Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Heb. 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

This scripture (Heb. 5:14) points to the reality that we can misunderstand what we think may be "clear bible". We are not exempt from the possibility of error and christendom is rife with it.

Our Lord instructed us regarding these things by telling us to:
Mark 10:15 “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.

This is not referring to salvation, but rather to a walking under the reign of the Kingdom. Put another way--experiencing the kingdom and all that the purview of a walk in the Spirit affords.


On Judgment Day we will be judged by our works. Our works will determine where we spend eternity.

Matthew 25:31-46

John 5:28-29


2 Thessalonians 1:7a-9

....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, rsv

 
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