Our God The Consuming Fire

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Lazarus Short

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Matthew 25 is about what happens to those still alive at the time of the end of
this world.

They will be divided -the nations -the people -into two groups. As also shown in
Matthew 13, wheat and tares. at the end of the world
The holy angels will come and take the tares people away. Those people will
eventually be cast into the lake of fire.


Matthew 13:49
/the time of wailing

end of Matthew 24
/the time of wailing

Matthew 25 - Then shall.....everlasting punishment

Matthew 25:13

Matthew 24:35

Matthew 24:36

What if...the chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble are NOT only a class of people? What if...these things are also things within each individual human? I think it works both ways, especially with the chaff. You see, the grain of wheat and the chaff are together until they are threshed, part of the same seed. When threshed, the chaff is burned or allowed to be blown away with the wind. The grain is kept.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Fire is also a means of divine destruction and judgment:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.


There is no "transformation" here but a complete destruction of the things Peter mentions in the verse. There is no phoenix-like rising of the earth, elements and heavens from the ashes of their burning.

Genesis 19:24
24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.


Fire is used here in divine judgment and destruction upon evil Sodom and Gomorrah.

Numbers 11:1
11 Now when the people complained, it displeased the Lord; for the Lord heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the Lord burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp.


Here, too, God's judgment falls in consuming fire upon the grumbling Israelites.

Numbers 16:35
35 And a fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense.


Again, God resorts to fire as a means of punishment of the wicked.

Deuteronomy 4:24
24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.


Here, God is described as a fire that consumes and that is associated with His jealousy.

2 Kings 1:10
10 So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.


And...once more heavenly fire consumes the wicked.

Psalms 18:8
Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;


The Psalmist here describes God in fiery terms, smoke rising from his nostrils and a devouring fire issuing from His mouth. No sense of the healing qualities of fire in this description that you're going on about...

I could go on showing other verses that associate God with the destructive qualities of fire. It appears you have not accurately described the facts concerning fire in Scripture.



You have by no means shown this to be the case - especially in Scripture. See above.



And yet, in Scripture, God repeatedly uses fire to punish and destroy, not to "sustain life."



Sodom and Gomorrah were not purified but utterly destroyed.

It is also a glaring non sequitur to say that because God is love, His "fire" must be kindled by His love. God is not only - or primarily - love. In fact, Scripture emphasizes God's holiness far more than it is does His love. The Bible speaks of God's holy mountain, arm, throne, temple, kingdom, spirit, angels, and truth. Scripture does not speak of these things in terms of God's love. His temple is not said to be a loving temple, nor is His throne called a loving throne; there is no mention of God's loving mountain in Scripture. What's more, the cherubs around God's throne do not sing, "Love, love, love, Lord God Almighty." No, they sing, "Holy, holy, holy." The statement, "God is love" appears only twice in all of the Bible and both times in the same chapter. But God is described as holy a multitude of times throughout the Bible. It is, then, a grave mistake to make God's love His preeminent and defining characteristic. This is a modern contortion of God not a biblically-accurate conception of Him. What, then, of your idea about God's "fire" emanating from His love? It seems to me that the fire of divine judgment and punishment that in Scripture devoured the wicked reflects God's holiness and justice very appropriately.

In light of all this, it is no surprise to encounter descriptions of hell and its eternally-tormenting fire in the New Testament. God has all along used fire as a symbol of His judgment and means of His punishment of the wicked.

Matthew 3:10
Matthew 3:12
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 13:42
Matthew 18:8
2 Thessalonians 1:8

...And so on.

2 Peter 3:10 - Yes, destruction...yet Jesus says later that He makes all things new.

Genesis 19:24 - Yes, destruction...yet God stated that He would restore the fortunes of Sodom, etc.

For the rest, all I can say is that, yes, God killed so-and-so with fire, BUT He knew that He would be resurrecting those same people later.

As for "...no surprise to encounter descriptions of hell...." you do realize that "hell," both the word and the concept come to us from paganism, yes? All the things you mention are Godfire, not Hellfire.
 
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FineLinen

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1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Dear Marty: You are the finest monster I know!

The emphasis is>>>>

"Any" man & "every" man

Pas= ALL

ALL= the radical ALL

What does all mean?
 
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renniks

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You ask a good question, but the answer is not difficult, just hidden because of Jerome and Augustine's wrong translation of olamolam, and aionios, aionian ann aion etc.
People are NEVER forced into the Kingdom. God our Father does not force. We preach the good news of forgiveness of sins already accomplished through Jesus sacrifice so that they may hear and believe. That is the same today and in the aions to come.

Eph 2:7 that in the ages(aions) to come He might show[declare, publish abroad, preach!!] the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

In the ages to come?

Yes! Paul was writing in the Pentecostal age, which we are coming to the end of...and then begins the Tabernacles age--or the Kingdom age...then there are still ages or aions after that until ALL people are drawn to Jesus, John 12:32, and all come into submission to Jesus in their own rank or order of time..1 Cor 15:23.
Preach the good news until all take an oath and swear that in Jesus ALONE I have righteousness and strength, so that God's promise in Isaiah 45:23,24 is fulfilled.
According to your theology, they are all going to hear and believe regardless. It's like hypercalvinism only with universal atonement. Everybody gets irresistibly drawn anyway and evangelism accomplishs nothing.
 
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aiki

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Yes, it does mean destruction....destruction of the old man.

??? Care to explain? Did Sodom and Gomorrah suffer merely the "destruction of the old man"? Where is that stated in Scripture? How about the grumbling Israelites God burned to death? Did they merely have their "old man" destroyed? Again, where is such a thing explained about them in Scripture?

Really, all you've offered here in response to my post is a bald-faced assertion. No supporting rationale, no scriptural backing, just your say-so. Not a particularly convincing argument for your view.
 
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renniks

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FineLinen

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aiki

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Our God is a consuming fire. Whatever is not of His Divine nature cannot exist in His Presence. All that is not of God’s nature is not holy.

God destroys & God makes alive all by the road of His Fire

So, basically, you're just going to deflect and/or ignore everything I posted. Very telling, I think.
 
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aiki

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2 Peter 3:10 - Yes, destruction...yet Jesus says later that He makes all things new.

He does not restore what He has destroyed. He replaces it all.

Genesis 19:24 - Yes, destruction...yet God stated that He would restore the fortunes of Sodom, etc.

Really? Where? And are the destroyed cities of Sodom and Gomorrah restored to their former undamaged state today?

For the rest, all I can say is that, yes, God killed so-and-so with fire, BUT He knew that He would be resurrecting those same people later.

To judgment and eternal punishment.

As for "...no surprise to encounter descriptions of hell...." you do realize that "hell," both the word and the concept come to us from paganism, yes? All the things you mention are Godfire, not Hellfire.

The whole zeitgeist thing, the idea Christianity and Judaism are mere constructs of other religions, has been shown to be false many times now.

Pagan Connection: Did Christianity Borrow From Mystery Religions? | Evidence and Answers

Did the Bible copy some of its stories from other religious myths and legends? | GotQuestions.org

Hell and the Gospel | Stand to Reason

Hell Interrupted - Part 1 | Stand to Reason

Hell Interrupted - Part 2 | Stand to Reason

Hell Interrupted – Part 3 | Stand to Reason

I use the terms for the fires of hell that my Bible uses.

Matthew 5:22
Matthew 18:9
etc.
 
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WESTOZZIE

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According to your theology, they are all going to hear and believe regardless. It's like hypercalvinism only with universal atonement. Everybody gets irresistibly drawn anyway and evangelism accomplishs nothing.

Everybody comes when they choose to come. Not calvinism. I was being drawn...Father was drawing me all my life...until at 28 years of age I gave in and cried out to God at home as my marriage fell apart around me. I was resisting for years in my blindness...but in the end I came.
Paul says in 1 Cor 15 that all shall come but each in their own rank or order. All come in their own time just as I did. Who knows how long that will take until all have come....but all will come eventually. And the only way to come is to hear the Gospel of Christ's sacrifice and to believe.. Evangelism shall continue on until all come.....each person is free to resist and stay in the torment of unbelief if they choose to. We love them anyway...as does Father, and love never fails.
 
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mkgal1

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the hour and day not known to man

That is when heaven and earth shall pass away. This is the same hour
referred to in Matthew 25.
So are you under the Old Covenant law? Because that message also said not one bit of the Law would pass away until "heaven and Earth" passed away. I'd suggest that maybe there's another meaning there to "heaven and Earth" that needs to be explored.

Psalm 78:69, “And He built His sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which He has established forever.”

Psalm 148:4-6, “Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the Lord, For He commanded and they were created. He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.”

Ecclesiastes 1:4, “One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.”

I'm of the belief that the "foundation of the Earth" spoken of in the Gospels were what was planted in Isaiah 51:16 and that it was destroyed and "new creation" was formed (and that's the plot of the Bible - especially the NT - in a nutshell).

Heaven and Earth Shall Pass Away <-----article by John Bray
 
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mkgal1

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2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.


There is no "transformation" here but a complete destruction of the things Peter mentions in the verse. There is no phoenix-like rising of the earth, elements and heavens from the ashes of their burning.
Actually - there WAS "new creation" after this. That's the message of the New Testament - that Jesus - as God incarnate - came to create a new order of things. The OC (which could only condemn and kill) gave way to the New Covenant that brought new life to ALL.
 
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renniks

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Everybody comes when they choose to come. Not calvinism. I was being drawn...Father was drawing me all my life...until at 28 years of age I gave in and cried out to God at home as my marriage fell apart around me. I was resisting for years in my blindness...but in the end I came.
Paul says in 1 Cor 15 that all shall come but each in their own rank or order. All come in their own time just as I did. Who knows how long that will take until all have come....but all will come eventually. And the only way to come is to hear the Gospel of Christ's sacrifice and to believe.. Evangelism shall continue on until all come.....each person is free to resist and stay in the torment of unbelief if they choose to. We love them anyway...as does Father, and love never fails.
Except the scripture doesn't say all will come. It constantly warns us: "today is the day of salvation". That the goats will be separated from the sheep, that many will go away into everlasting fire... You just lift a few verses out of context, to make it sound as if all are going to be saved.
 
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mkgal1

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Except the scripture doesn't say all will come. It constantly warns us: "today is the day of salvation". That the goats will be separated from the sheep, that many will go away into everlasting fire... You just lift a few verses out of context, to make it sound as if all are going to be saved.
IMO - there is a necessary paradigm shift that's necessary in order to view what Jesus was teaching through His parables. Most of what we commonly interpret as "going to heaven" were really (in my belief) teachings of the dawning of the New Covenant age (and, thus, the END of the Old Covenant age - with a 40 year transition period of "birth pangs"). That end was marked by the destruction of Herod's Temple and ancient Jerusalem in 70 A.D. That's how Jesus' followers were separated - those that believed Him fled to the mountains (Matthew 24:16) those that believed false prophets relied on their Temple to "save them" and they perished in a FIRE at the Temple (not hellfire).

Quoting from linked article ~

Question
: Who are the sons of the resurrection?

Answer: Everyone

Question: Are we sons of the resurrection after we die?

Answer: We are all sons of the resurrection now.


1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME.

That age, which ended in AD 70, at the fall of Jerusalem was the end of the age of Law, of sacrifices, of a natural priesthood by birth, and even the genealogy itself was burned in the temple. It was that age which the disciples and Paul were still living in as they wrote what we call the New Testament letters. They called it the "present evil age" (Gal 1:4) in which the Law was the veil that covered Christ, and became the god of the Jews which blinded their minds (2 Cor. 4:4).

The new era, would be called the the kingdom of God, and the children of that age, the sons of the resurrection.

In AD 70, the separation of the sheep and goats, the wheat and tares, and between the 10 virgins takes place. Please click the links for more explanation and scriptural proof. "Entering the kingdom" was not about going to heaven, they were passing through the Old Age of Law into the age of the kingdom which is established by the removal of the old natural kingdom (Gen. 49:10; Matt 21:43). Some would be counted worthy to attain that age, that era, that period of time because they trusted Christ, identified with him and fled the city when they saw the Romans coming.

The first resurrection is when Christ, through his incarnation joins himself to humanity, so that as the Last Adam, as the Son of Man, whatever happens to Jesus, happens for all. Paul makes this abundantly clear in 2 Cor. 5:14 saying "since Christ died for ALL then ALL died." Again in Ephesians 2 he unmistakably says that when it happened to Jesus, it happened to us all: we were made alive TOGETHER with him, raised TOGETHER with him, and seated TOGETHER with him! What happened with Jesus was raised up? Peter says, "Thank God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that in his great mercy we men have been born again into a life full of hope, through Christ’s rising again from the dead!" (1 Pet. 1:3, Phillips)

In Jesus Christ was neither Jew, nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female but all are ONE in Christ. He represented all, so what happened to him, happened to ALL.

~ You Are Sons of the Resurrection — A New Day Dawning
 
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Pedra

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Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new."
-Christ Triumphant-
I beg to differ the Bible does warn of eternal punishment, eternal torment.
This is the belief that hell doesn't exist and that instead "sin" will be purified away and this not in the Bible, it is a false teaching.
It is actually preaching Another Gospel.
"Purification" is Not what Christ Jesus came to SAVE people from. HE came to SAVE people from God's wrath & His Just Eternal punishment for sin.
Romans 6:23 , Daniel 12:2 , Mark 9:44-49 , Luke 16:23-24 , 2 Thessalonians 1:9 , Revelation 14:10-11

John the baptist announces Jesus appearance & warns of Hell.
Matt 3:11-14 "11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threashing floor and to gather HIS wheat into the barn; but HE will BURN up the chaff with Unquenchable fire."

Matt 25:41 -41"Then He will say to those on His left,'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the Devil and his angels."
 
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Pedra

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The thread seems to have quickly veered from the subject of God's Fire to forgiveness and mercy. OK, I have no problem with thread drift, but I think back to what I wrote in my book about Psalm 136. Sorry, some of it will be a bit out of context.

Psalm 136

Here I read (26 times!) this: “…his mercy endureth for ever.” Compare this God of mercy to the Hell theory god, who grants us our precious Free Will, and then when we exercise it badly, even in ignorance, He relegates us to Hell with no chance of reprieve. Compare the real Jesus, Who prayed to His Father for the sinners who were killing Him, to the Jesus of Mary K. Baxter who tells the damned in so many words, “Too bad, you screwed up, and here you are.” (Yes, I did read her book.) For that matter, take a look at the behavior of Jesus’ early followers, in the days when universal reconciliation (or whatever term they used at the time) was orthodoxy, versus the violence, torture, and bloodshed which later set in after the Hell theory became dominant. I know that during this period, entire nations disappeared from history, and others nearly did, for what the Church considered heresy. You see, gentle reader, either the Hell theory is correct, or God’s mercy endures forever – both cannot be true at the same time. If God’s mercy does endure forever, and I believe it does, then people cannot be sent to eternal torture, whatever excuses some may make for it – burning the wicked to ashes is more merciful, but as we shall see, God has more mercy in store for us than that. Let me say it again, for it bears repeating: universal reconciliation is mercy, annihilation is mercy (sort of), but eternal torture cannot be mercy. Psalm 136 and the Hell theory cannot both be true, and Psalm 136 is true.
There is no "hell theory" God, there is in fact what the BIBLE aka the God-breathed Word says about unrepentant sinners facing eternal punishment and hell.
God is merciful because HE sent HIS only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus into this sinful fallen world in order to pay the price for sin for all who would turn away from their sin & believe in Him. People been given a choice to believe with Faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior,( His sacrifice for sin, His resurrection, ascending in to heaven, & that His returning as the conquering KING of heaven to rule over the earth)----or reject the Son of God's gift of forgiveness /His reconciliation with the heavenly Father GOD. Those that reject Christ Jesus are referred to as the chaff, tares, unrepentant sinners, the wicked, those in rebellion against God, & they will die in their sins and be cast into hell and eternal torment. This is the whole point in spreading the Gospel so as many can here the word of God and be saved from eternal punishment , but instead receive eternal life.
The teaching of universal salvation, no hell, is ignoring what the scripture teaches, what Jesus Himself warned about and the reason HE came to earth in the first place.
 
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mkgal1

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HE came to SAVE people from God's wrath
He IS God.

What this belief does is it divides the Triune God into a god with opposing wills (one destroys and the other rescues).

If we desire to see our Father God and know His desires, all we have to do is to look to Christ Jesus - He is the exact representation of God (Hebrews 1:3) He radiates the Father's glory. He expresses the very character of God.
 
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