My latest chart (number 3)

grafted branch

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Hi Douggg,

As I understand it the 1st heaven is the atmosphere or air where the birds fly. The 2nd heaven is the cosmos; the sun, moon, and stars. The 3rd heaven is where we go, when we die, to be present with the Lord.

In Matthew 24:29 and in several other verses there are signs in the sun, moon, and stars which is the 2nd heaven. The sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17 has the same signs in the 2nd heaven; and the seventh seal has silence in heaven. Could this silence be the result of Satan being removed from the 2nd heaven?

Your chart has Satan being cast out of the 2nd heaven after the war in heaven (Revelation12:7-9). Do you think the war in heaven has any relevance to the signs in Matthew 24:29? I’m interested in how you arrived at the war in heaven being the 2nd heaven. Could you explain this a little further for me and please include any verses you used. Thanks.
 
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Douggg

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Hi Douggg,

As I understand it the 1st heaven is the atmosphere or air where the birds fly. The 2nd heaven is the cosmos; the sun, moon, and stars. The 3rd heaven is where we go, when we die, to be present with the Lord.
Hi grafted branch,

That's the way I understand it as well.

In Matthew 24:29 and in several other verses there are signs in the sun, moon, and stars which is the 2nd heaven. The sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17 has the same signs in the 2nd heaven; and the seventh seal has silence in heaven. Could this silence be the result of Satan being removed from the 2nd heaven?
I don't know. Maybe. In Revelation 8:2, the seven angels are before God, which would put them in the third heaven.

Your chart has Satan being cast out of the 2nd heaven after the war in heaven (Revelation12:7-9). Do you think the war in heaven has any relevance to the signs in Matthew 24:29? I’m interested in how you arrived at the war in heaven being the 2nd heaven. Could you explain this a little further for me and please include any verses you used. Thanks.
I think the war in the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 is the first step after 7th trumpet sounds, of God beginning to dismantle Satan's kingdom called Babylon the Great, to begin taking back the nations of this world, to become the kingdoms of God and his Christ in Revelation 11:15.

The reason I think it is the second heaven is because eons ago, when Satan rebelled he was cast out of the third heaven it was because iniquity was found in him. Satan still has limit access to the third heaven if he is summoned there like in Job, but not to roam freely as wishes. And even then, in Ezekiel 28:16, it seems to indicate that God is going to completely cut off his limited access.

So Revelation 12:7-9 would not be the initial action taken against Satan in the third heaven, plus once cast down in Revelation 12, he only has a time, times, half times left.

In Revelation 12:8, KJV, it says neither was their place found any more in (the second, my comment) heaven. imo, that verse alludes to the the second heaven will be pulled aside as it indicates in Revelation 6, the sixth seal.

I have another thread, which I made regarding Ezekiel 28;16-19, of Satan being cast down to earth, which you can compare those verses with the end times verses in Revelation.

Futurist Only - The abomination of desolation turned to ashes
 
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Douggg

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upload_2019-9-9_17-20-42.jpeg
 
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Douggg

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Once again, you have ignored "the time of the judgment of the dead" found in Revelation 11:18.

Will you will put it on your 4th chart, since this one is not correct?

.
The chart is correct. It is not talking about the wicked in Revelation 11:18. It is talking about them who have died in Christ. The prophets and the saints. And rewards given to them according to what they have done for the cause of Christ. Collectively, the bride of Christ.

It will take place in heaven, while here on earth God's wrath is poured out. Differently, judgement of the wicked, the unsaved, takes place at the end of the 1000 years at the Great White Throne judgment, starting in Revelation 20:12.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
 
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BABerean2

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The chart is correct. It is not talking about the wicked in Revelation 11:18. It is talking about them who have died in Christ. The prophets and the saints. And rewards given to them according to what they have done for the cause of Christ. Collectively, the bride of Christ.

It will take place in heaven, while here on earth God's wrath is poured out.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth
, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


You seem very confused about the judgment of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

See also 2 Timothy 4:1.


.
 
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Douggg

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The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Agreed. Segments of it are though. The purpose of a chart is to put the end times events in order considering all of the end time prophecies.

You seem very confused about the judgment of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

See also 2 Timothy 4:1.
I think you are confused. I know Dr. Kelly Varner is confused about there not being 7 years regarding the confirmation of the covenant being elsewhere in the bible besides Daniel 9:27. I don't know why you keep recycling that same video over and over.
 
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BABerean2

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I think you are confused. I know Dr. Kelly Varner is confused about there not being 7 years regarding the confirmation of the covenant being elsewhere in the bible besides Daniel 9:27. I don't know why you keep recycling that same video over and over.

There is no 7 year tribulation period found in the Book of Revelation.
It is created by adding together two of the references to the forty two month period, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

Rev_13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.



Dr. Kelly Varner's video reveals the truth about the reference to the New Covenant in Daniel chapter 9.
The same thing is found below from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


....................................................

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.
 
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Douggg

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There is no 7 year tribulation period found in the Book of Revelation.
It is created by adding together two of the references to the forty two month period, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.
Agreed, no 7 year "tribulation" period found in Revelation. Instead there is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 in Revelation.

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 1256 days (called 42 months) = 2520 days, the 7 years.
Dr. Kelly Varner's video reveals the truth about the reference to the New Covenant in Daniel chapter 9.
Dr Kelly Varner's video reveals that he doesn't understand the prophecies in the bible. And that he was not aware of Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
 
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BABerean2

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Instead there is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 in Revelation.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century. It is not found in the Book of Revelation.

.
 
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Douggg

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Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century. It is not found in the Book of Revelation.

.
Bab2, it doesn't say 7 years in any of those. Plus, it is the prince who shall come who confirms the covenant - after the messiah is cutoff. Dr. Kelly Varner was unaware of the 7years in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century. It is not found in the Book of Revelation.

.
Interesting. 7 yrs about how long the great 1st century Jewish Revolt lasted
I am beginning to be of the view this is symbolizing Armageddon in Revelation......[I view 1st century Jerusalem as that great City as most here well know]
Not sure if the END spoken of here is of 70ad Jerusalem or 73ad Masada............
Matthew 24:
6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass,
but the end<5056> is not yet.
Mark 13:
7 “But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen,
but the end<5056> is not yet.
Luke 21:
9 “But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified;
for these things must come to pass first,
but the end<5056> is not immediate.”


Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
Siege of Masada 73 Ad
===================
Isa 1:23 - Your rulers/princes are rebels, partners with thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow's case does not come before them. 28 - But rebels and sinners shall be broken together, and those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Eze 20:38 - “I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Dan 8:23 - “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.
Hos 5:2 - The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.hem.

In 73 AD Masada, the impregnable mountain fortress in the Judaean desert, stood as the final holdout against the onslaught of Rome’s legions. The siege that followed would mark the final, bloody suppression of the Jewish revolt with an encounter whose awe inspiring remains can still be seen in the desert today!
 
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BABerean2

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Bab2, it doesn't say 7 years in any of those.

It is basic math.

Bible scholars have found 4 Passovers in the Gospels.
Therefore, it is commonly accepted that Christ's earthly ministry was about 3 1/2 years.

Paul was converted several months after Calvary.

See below what Paul said.


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

3 1/2 years + several months + 3 years = ?


Any unbiased witness would not need a calculator to find the answer.

However, many of those here do not want to find the answer, because of their man-made Bible doctrines.
Plus, it might make a mess of their chart.


.
.
 
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Douggg

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However, many of those here do not want to find the answer, because of their man-made Bible doctrines.
Plus, it might make a mess of their chart.
The man-made Bible doctrines are those of Dr Kelly Varner and company. And I doubt that he ever made a chart.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The man-made Bible doctrines are those of Dr Kelly Varner and company. And I doubt that he ever made a chart.
Hello Doggg.
Do you consider Preterism a man made doctrine?

The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Various Charts @ PreteristArchive.com,


MAPS AND THEOLOGICAL CHARTS

Charts & Maps | Jerusalem - Temple | Masada | Portraits
2,000 Years of Josephus | Numismatic History | The Roman Empire


Charts, Timelines, Tables and Trees
Curator Doesn't Vouch For the Accuracy of Any Except His Own


PRETERIST CHARTS

04_chart_04.jpg


bimillennial_preterism.jpg



jericho.gif
 
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BABerean2

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The man-made Bible doctrines are those of Dr Kelly Varner and company. And I doubt that he ever made a chart.

Yes.

His talk about the New Covenant, found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, would be very strange to many in the modern Church, especially those who are trying to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

If he does not make charts, would that make him very "peculiar"?



1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

.
 
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