Debunking Flat Earth

I am a little envious of your holiday experience, I must say. Here is first hand experience of the earth's curvature, noticed from the time sailors first put to sea and accepted by all - except, unaccountably, a few sad flat-earthers. No doubt there will be an 'explanation' to tell you how you were deluded. This will of course fail with you - and me, and most people - but seem entirely convincing to the credulous followers of a flat earth theory.

Whyayeman said:

I am a little envious of your holiday experience, I must say. Here is first hand experience of the earth's curvature, noticed from the time sailors first put to sea and accepted by all - except, unaccountably, a few sad flat-earthers. No doubt there will be an 'explanation' to tell you how you were deluded. This will of course fail with you - and me, and most people - but seem entirely convincing to the credulous followers of a flat earth theory.

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Of course. The same phenomenon occurs when you are on shore and watch a ship sail away. You first lose sight of the hull. Then the superstructure disappears. And finally the tops of the masts are gone. The ship is clearly moving downward as it gets farther away. That’s only possible if it’s sailing on surface that curves downward away from the observer. If there’s any other plausible explanation, I’d love to hear it.

jayem said:

You first lose sight of the hull.

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That's due to optics and the convergence point. Lot's of illusory effects occur. Tonnes of good research on this.

This alleged proof s easily overcome by watching a boat 'go over the horizon' with the naked eye, then using a zoom lens to retrieve the entire object. We are consistently able to see objects in the distance that, on a ball of 40,000 km circumference, ought to be obscured behind significant amounts of curvature. In short, we can see way too far.

Another point is that the horizon is only some 6 km away for an observer 1.8m above sea level. If you have a horizon line that runs for 20km along the X axis, you should be able to watch a boat curve along it, or at least measure it.

There is simply no detectable or measurable curvature. And there should be.

With respect, these are remedial points. Flat earthers include engineers, surveyors, pilots, sailors, earth science and professional folks of all stripes. They've all satisfied themselves as to these kind of questions. Everybody starts out extremely sceptical and therefore super-careful and critical.

So look into it. Betcha can't debunk it.

Shrewd Manager said:

That's due to optics and the convergence point. Lot's of illusory effects occur.

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Which illusory effects?

Jimmy D said:

Which illusory effects?

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Try fata morgana for one. Also looming, and other miraging and refraction-type effects, due to evaporation and angular resolution.

Academic interest really, as the zoom function will retrieve that boat that looked as though it went over.

Shrewd Manager said:

Try fata morgana for one. Also looming, and other miraging and refraction-type effects, due to evaporation and angular resolution.

Academic interest really, as the zoom function will retrieve that boat that looked as though it went over.

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It’s more interesting from the perspective of why people believe this flat Earth nonsense.

Vague claims of “optical effects” are not particularly convincing in the face of the evidence for a global Earth.

Here’s a chap who explains the maths...

Flat Earth Insanity: Toronto CN Tower from Olcott, NY - explained

How does the Fata Morgana effect account for the observations described?

Jimmy D said:

It’s more interesting from the perspective of why people believe this flat Earth nonsense.

Vague claims of “optical effects” are not particularly convincing in the face of the evidence for a global Earth.

Here’s a chap who explains the maths...

Flat Earth Insanity: Toronto CN Tower from Olcott, NY - explained

How does the Fata Morgana effect account for the observations described?

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I'm not interested in getting sidetracked by this issue. The main game is that we can see much much further than we should as predicted by ball earth maths.

Now the spherical trig maths is uncontentious. There's several online calculators available, accepted by both sides.

What the ball earthers cannot satisfactorily explain is the consistent evidence of line of sight EM waves - whether optical, radio, laser, microwave - propagating far beyond the curve.

Here's a vid showing how German WWII planes used 2 intersecting beams to align bombing targets over England. It confused the English who thought the beams would be blocked by the bulge/ curve.



The ball, so to speak, is in your court. So just find an explanation for this critical issue, then your model will be back in business.

The inability to explain the sunset leaves me baffled by Flat Earth believers.

It's bigger, brighter and higher then any boat... yet it disappears completely and no amount of telescopes pointed at the western night sky can reveal it.

Shemjaza said:

The inability to explain the sunset leaves me baffled by Flat Earth believers.

It's bigger, brighter and higher then any boat... yet it disappears completely and no amount of telescopes pointed at the western night sky can reveal it.

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It's also a lot further away, and receding into the atmospheric (atmoplanic) haze. Same reason the ship eventually does get lost to view, or why any telescope can't see objects beyond a certain distance when pointed at the horizon.

Shrewd Manager said:

It's also a lot further away, and receding into the atmospheric (atmoplanic) haze. Same reason the ship eventually does get lost to view, or why any telescope can't see objects beyond a certain distance when pointed at the horizon.

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So an hour of extra distance goes from so bright it will burn holes in the back of your eyes, to completely invisible... that's some special haze.

Shrewd Manager said:

I'm not interested in getting sidetracked by this issue. The main game is that we can see much much further than we should as predicted by ball earth maths.

Now the spherical trig maths is uncontentious. There's several online calculators available, accepted by both sides.

What the ball earthers cannot satisfactorily explain is the consistent evidence of line of sight EM waves - whether optical, radio, laser, microwave - propagating far beyond the curve.

Here's a vid showing how German WWII planes used 2 intersecting beams to align bombing targets over England. It confused the English who thought the beams would be blocked by the bulge/ curve.

The ball, so to speak, is in your court. So just find an explanation for this critical issue, then your model will be back in business.

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When we see further than the strict visual horizon it's because of refractive atmospheric distortions like Fata Morgana that 'lift' images above the horizon.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

When we see further than the strict visual horizon it's because of refractive atmospheric distortions like Fata Morgana that 'lift' images above the horizon.

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That would be some superman refraction when we're talking about the long distance shots. Like 200+meters in some cases. The refraction allowance doesn't compensate.

Shemjaza said:

So an hour of extra distance goes from so bright it will burn holes in the back of your eyes, to completely invisible... that's some special haze.

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Its a magical haze that exists only for Flat earth believers.

Shemjaza said:

So an hour of extra distance goes from so bright it will burn holes in the back of your eyes, to completely invisible... that's some special haze.

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It sure is. Guess we've got our magic haze, you've got your superman refraction...

But seriously, there has been some effective research on the sunset question imho, I'll have to dig it up and come back to you.

Shemjaza said:

The inability to explain the sunset leaves me baffled by Flat Earth believers.

It's bigger, brighter and higher then any boat... yet it disappears completely and no amount of telescopes pointed at the western night sky can reveal it.

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You mean ... like this ...

Lost4words said:

Its a magical haze that exists only for Flat earth believers.

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You lost, little fella?

Shrewd Manager said:

It's also a lot further away, and receding into the atmospheric (atmoplanic) haze. Same reason the ship eventually does get lost to view, or why any telescope can't see objects beyond a certain distance when pointed at the horizon.

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So ... how can we clearly see the upper PART of the sun, ... and not the LOWER part ... during a sunrise/sunset ...

A_Thinker said:

You mean ... like this ...

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That's it - flat, stationary, enclosed. Just as Gen 1 teaches.

A_Thinker said:

So ... how can we clearly see the upper PART of the sun, ... and not the LOWER part ... during a sunrise/sunset ...

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That would be easily explained by perspective, possible a bit of lensing at the layer close to the horizon. You do know that it's where the word 'horizontal' as in 'level' as in 'water always finds its' comes from?

Skeptic Investigates: Is the Earth Flat?

How Do Flat-Earthers Explain the Equinox? We Investigated.

Couple of good reads