BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Looking for a "safe place" to post this topic - hopefully this area of the board is safe for this POV.

Rom 13:9-10
9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,”
and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

same as they had in Matt 19 before the cross (According to Christ)

Matt 19
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “
‘You shall not murder,’
‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’
‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” (Lev 19:18

And of course the entire Ten are pulled in with Eph 6:2 showing that the 5th commandment is the first commandment in that list of Ten "with a promise".

some - have supposed that the term "10" is never mentioned with commandments and I know a few readers here will find it hard to take that idea seriously given the text we see below

Ex 34
And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.
28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain)

The “TERM” TEN COMMANDMENTs applies ONLY to those words written on stone. A distinct unit – a distinct “name”. They are not called the “613 Commandments” and they are not downsized to something called “The NINE commandments” by NT authors or OT authors – “no not in all of scripture”!

Deut 5
22 ""These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Deuteronomy 4:13
"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:4
"He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.

==================================
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
And John can say "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
And even "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His commandments" 1 John 5:2-3


In a discussion involving the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 19, and the Catholic Catechism -- the statements made above are not even called into question - rather it is a much-affirmed "given" that the TEN are included in the moral law of God "Written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33

(And so as you can see in my signature line below -- I affirm them for doing so)
 

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And yet many Christians think they are done away with...
Paul writes about "lawlessness" in a couple of places. He uses the greek word nomos for law. But that word is in the LXX for "Torah" which is God's teaching and instructions, based on the 10.

So those who reject the instructions of the OT are "torah-less" or lawless.

That is NOT a good thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Paul spoke about the law in Romans 3, about being saved by faith, yet he also said in v31 that we uphold the law.
Faith is how we are to be saved.
The Law (torah) is how we are to live after being saved.
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,207
913
Visit site
✟96,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I would just add one passage to the list Bob used.

I find it very interesting that Jesus used this following commentary on receiving blessings from our heavenly Father to lead up to His summation of the "law and the prophets".
Matthew 7: 7 ¶Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

And here is Jesus' summation of God's law and the teachings of all the prophets of the OT. In effect Jesus starts off this summation by saying, in reference to to what I just said about the blessings you will receive if you ask and keep on asking, here is how you should treat people. If you do, you will be keeping the law and the instructions of the prophets.

It's the promise of the ability to obey the law given even as it is summed up by the lawgiver Himself.
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

Chris35

Active Member
May 27, 2018
272
158
Melbourne
✟53,653.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment.

If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.


Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

We are not under law, we are free from law. It is strange that in that parable, there is no mention of law, but giving to the needy, which again comes from love.

In the life of Jesus he did more then follow the 10 commandments, he healed the sick, he gave to the poor, he fed the needy, he lay down his life for us. The law itself did not require Jesus to do these things. These things come from love and not the law.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

One fullfils the law by walking in love, not by trying to force yourself to commit to the law. If you walk in love, you will fulfill the law and do much more.
 
Upvote 0

Chris35

Active Member
May 27, 2018
272
158
Melbourne
✟53,653.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ d

20All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someones who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


Here is something to ponder, a man who kept all the commandments, yet was asked to sell his possessions and he could not.

Jesus responded with it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, then for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Is it therefore enough to just keep the 10 commandments?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Rom 3:31 "do we then abolish the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Where those Ten Commandments are the ones in which the "5th commandment is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:2 according to Paul


Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ d

Notice that Jesus refers to the Ten Commandments as "the commandments" even in the NT.

Notice that instead of saying "keeping the Commandments has nothing to do with the subject of heaven" Jesus ties them together.

Notice that the same list you see in Matt 19 -- is also stated again by Paul in Romans 13.


Here is something to ponder, a man who kept all the commandments, yet was asked to sell his possessions and he could not.

Indeed - as Paul points out in Romans 2 - the Jews were not actually keeping the commandments.

And as Paul points out in Romans 8:4-11 the lost "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" -- as contrasted to the saints in that same chapter.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Not only does Gal 5 describe the failure of OSAS "you been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace" in the verses you quote.

It also points to the keeping of the Law of God --

Gal 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Just as we see in 1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

"this IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

"the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Because of the Gospel -We are not under the condemnation of the law, we are free from condemnation of the law law.

The LAW of God is "written on the heart" Jer 31:31-33 under the NEW Covenant (the Gospel) ... and so it is that even in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

God's Law - is called "the Royal LAW" .. and "the LAW of Liberty" in James 2 .. quoting from the same Law of Moses that Christ quotes from in Matthew 22 and in Matthew 19.

And so it is that even for the saints of the NT - it is still "sin" to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,207
913
Visit site
✟96,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I would add one passage of scripture to what Bob listed as it confirms the thought, to me, of what Bob was saying.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Note that living by the Spirit brings the fruit of the Spirit into our lives, and the result of that is behavior that violates no laws, including God's law.

This is not focusing on keeping the law, it is focusing on our relationship with God, and the result is living in harmony with God's law. In other words, obeying God's law through the fruit of the Holy Spirit being in our lives and just following His lead.

Those who keep on crying "legalism" have not come even close to understanding the overall impact of Galatians 5.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
God's Law is a "law of love" as Jesus points out in Matt 22 -- Love for God (Deut 6:5) and Love for each other (Lev 19:18) - that is the bedrock foundation of "all the law AND the prophets" (Matt 22) .. which means it is the foundation of scripture itself.

It is written on the heart under the New Covenant.

Scripture is established on that firm foundation and that foundation is "written on heart and mind" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33

It is the "Law of Liberty" James 2. And so "the Royal Law".

But the lost are "at war with it" according to Rom 8:4-11.
The lost "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:4-11 by contrast to the saints who walk by the Spirit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gary K
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,207
913
Visit site
✟96,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ d

20All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someones who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


Here is something to ponder, a man who kept all the commandments, yet was asked to sell his possessions and he could not.

Jesus responded with it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, then for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Is it therefore enough to just keep the 10 commandments?

I think, from the overall idea that seems to be behind what I've emphasized from your post, you have not really understood Jesus' response to the rich young ruler or what was behind the statement of the young man. He claimed to have kept the commandments but had he really done that?

Jesus told the lawyer who said that the law meant to love God with all our heart and our neighbors as ourselves that he was correct in his analysis. And Jesus told us that the entire law and the prophets hangs upon the Golden Rule.

What Jesus did was point out the flaw in the young man's response. In telling the young man to go and sell what he had and give the proceeds to the poor Jesus pointed out that he hadn't actually kept the 10 commandments and that the idol he was worshiping was his wealth. Was Jesus correct? The response of the young man tells us He was for the young man turned away sorrowfully. He had no real desire to follow Jesus or obey the law. He wanted to keep on worshiping his idol rather than God. That he went away sorrowfully meant he understood the consequence of worshiping his wealth, but was going to keep on doing it any way.
 
Upvote 0