Are God's laws reasonable or arbitrary?

God’s law brings us the ultimate,
most wonderful freedom of all.

It protects our families. It protects our children. It protects us from all the evil in this world. We should have joyful freedom.

Shrewd Manager said:

Agreed in principle, but we know a lot less about the laws of matter than we think. And earth is the devil's playground.

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Yes, I often find myself explaining to people that we currently do not understand much about the nature of roughly 95% of matter and energy in the Universe. That the sciences (most) are far from complete, and may not be completed before this age passes. Any case, we needn't discuss God's laws of nature much here, as the question is really to the laws in the Bible instead.

Halbhh said:

we currently do not understand much about the nature of roughly 95% of matter and energy in the Universe.

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Yes, meaning the standard model paradigm is a fail.

Halbhh said:

Any case, we needn't discuss God's laws of nature much here, as the question is really to the laws in the Bible instead.

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My point is that the devil has confused the two, so as to have people believe in false materialist junk science (eg big bang, evilotion, space travel, alien life) as articles of faith or reason. A little leaven of the wrong kind...

Chadrho said:

#449: "That when the Ark is carried, it should be carried on the shoulder (Num. 7:9) (affirmative)."

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These laws are not foolproof, however:

God is Love, and God Loves mankind.
God gave laws in Love, or show how to.

First four shows Love to God first,
then to mankind how to Love others.

The New Covenant validates God's laws by putting them right into the minds and hearts of Christians!

Jesus "magnified" God's law (Isaiah 42:21, KJV). He taught that Christians are not to murder, and must not even harbor an attitude of hate
(Matthew 5:21–24)

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

Shrewd Manager said:

Yes, meaning the standard model paradigm is a fail.



My point is that the devil has confused the two, so as to have people believe in false materialist junk science (eg big bang, evilotion, space travel, alien life) as articles of faith or reason. A little leaven of the wrong kind...

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I don't want to derail this thread into a totally unrelated topic, so I'll just give you something in a PM on one thing you are saying here that I think I can help clear up maybe. I won't try to further discuss things like 'evolution' in this thread about laws in the Bible. Not even if someone claims left is right and up is down, or that we all live under the sea and eat starfish, heh heh.

Chadrho said:

If we all assume that God's laws are authoritative simply because God is God, it still leaves open the question if whether those laws are arbitrary or reasonable.

If a law of God is reasonable, then it is not arbitrary. If it is arbitrary, then it is not reasonable.

Maybe it's the case that some are reasonable and some not.

What do you think? Are God's laws reasonable or arbitrary?

Edit: if you argue a law is reasonable, then you will be able to provide a reason for said law that does not reduce to "because God said so."

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I tend to go with reasonable. In Deuteronomy after or when God gives the basic law there is a phrase that mentions that his commandments "are not far off" basically "out of reach" or "too hard" idiomatically speaking. (Non messianic rabbis tend to use that as a proof text for why Jesus dieing on the cross was not necessary). But anyway, I do believe there is a certain kind of a Logos behind the commandments and even the ones that are difficult are given for reasons that are ultimately beneficial in some way.


Interesting enough I have heard arguments from the opposite side of things in Judaism where one rabbi accuses people for making hierchachial distinctions within the mitzoh. He of course is an Orthodox rabbi, but he talks about how people prioritize the commandments where they will tend to see violating koshur as not a big deal compared to something like murder,where he tries to remind people that both are forbidden etc. This point of view I can only see on some issues like theodicy where people have trouble understanding events that seem arbitrary (Why God allows misfortunes to happen to godly people), and overall I think it is a failure because issues of morals can be summarized by such things like Love of God and neighbor and for the most part murder is light years worse than violating ceremonial laws.

Chadrho said:

If we all assume that God's laws are authoritative simply because God is God, it still leaves open the question if whether those laws are arbitrary or reasonable.

If a law of God is reasonable, then it is not arbitrary. If it is arbitrary, then it is not reasonable.

Maybe it's the case that some are reasonable and some not.

What do you think? Are God's laws reasonable or arbitrary?

Edit: if you argue a law is reasonable, then you will be able to provide a reason for said law that does not reduce to "because God said so."

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God's laws are not arbitrary, but rather they were given to teach us about who He is, how to walk in His ways, and how to express His character traits in accordance with His nature. God's ways are His character traits and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's Law, which again is because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits. Jesus was the exact image of God's nature, so he expressed the divine character traits or fruits of the Spirit through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when we are in Christ and are meeting our obligation to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So by expressing Christ's character traits through our actions in obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are expressing our love for who he is and are acting as a light to the nations through testifying about who he is.

Many of God's laws are judgements that straightforwardly make sense as to why God commanded them because they are along the lines of treating our neighbor how we want to be treated, which can be found in almost every civilized society, like the law against theft (Mishpat). However, God also has other fixed laws that a in regard to our relationship with Him, which do not always straightforwardly make sense, which invite us to ponder what God was teaching us about Himself through them, such as the laws against eating unclean animals (Chok). In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how how to have a holy conduct, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45). So those laws are intended to teach us about God's holiness and by obeying them we are acting in accordance with and testifying to the nations about His holiness.

If after pondering we are still don't understand why God has commanded something, then we have no greater opportunity to express our love and our faith in God through obeying it anyway. However, the bottom line is that God is sovereign and we are therefore still obligated to obey His commands because He said so even when we don't understand why He has commanded them. It such cases we can continue to obey them by faith in anticipation of when God will reveal their meaning to us.

Chadrho said:

Thank you for giving this response. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying, behind any reason we give for why God's laws are reasonable, eventually we come to a place where we can give no reason.

Does that mean God's laws are ultimately arbitrary, or is it just our limitations? And if human limitation prevents us from giving reasons for God's laws, then can we really say they are reasonable? I am inclined to think you would say , "No, we cannot say God's laws are reasonable."

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Just because we do not understand God's ways does not make them unreasonable. I would not allow a toddler to play with a loaded gun. I doubt that he would think I was being reasonable. For sure I would not be making an arbitrary ruling.

Soyeong said:

It such cases we can continue to obey them by faith in anticipation of when God will reveal their meaning to us.

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Ours is to follow His will, not sit in the board room being filled in.
But we should already know His will follows a path opposite to man's self serving self justifying default will of our tradition here. Everything of God works opposite to what man deems wise, so we should trust He knows what He is doing, because we sure don't. Our days of trying to reverse engineer God will be over.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

G1479
ἐθελοθρησκεία
ethelothrēskeia
eth-el-oth-race-ki'-ah
From G2309 and G2356; voluntary (arbitrary and unwarranted) piety, that is, sanctimony: - will worship.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

G3050
λογικός
logikos
log-ik-os'
From G3056; rational (“logical”): - reasonable, of the word.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

Chadrho said:

If we all assume that God's laws are authoritative simply because God is God, it still leaves open the question if whether those laws are arbitrary or reasonable.

If a law of God is reasonable, then it is not arbitrary. If it is arbitrary, then it is not reasonable.

Maybe it's the case that some are reasonable and some not.

What do you think? Are God's laws reasonable or arbitrary?

Edit: if you argue a law is reasonable, then you will be able to provide a reason for said law that does not reduce to "because God said so."

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The flaw in your logic is that it insists that if man does not have the mind of God to know exactly why God gave a command or a specific detail in a comman... then it is God that is flawed not man.

That logic needs more work

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
-

Here's one about the “water of purification”

"At first glance, the water of purification sounds like a hodge-podge of superstitious potion-making that included the ashes of a red heifer, hyssop, cedar wood, and scarlet wool. "

What really happened is God gave the Israelites an award-winning recipe for an antibacterial soap.
God’s Soap Recipe

The recipe for the water of purification stands today as a wonderful example of God’s brilliance, since the recipe is nothing less than a procedure to produce an antibacterial soap.

Semper-Fi said:

The recipe for the water of purification stands today as a wonderful example of God’s brilliance, since the recipe is nothing less than a procedure to produce an antibacterial soap.

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Well He did spent 7000 yrs trying to get us to clean up our acts.

Chadrho said:

Can you think of any candidates for such laws? If there are laws that seem arbitrary to us, but very well might be reasonable to God, then your critique stands. Are there laws that fit that scenario?

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I tend to not call God's Law arbitrary in the first place. My objection is to the idea that if one does not have the mind of God to understand all the reasons behind that law -- then it is flaw in God not in man. It appears to be flawed logic no matter if you claim to have found such a command from God or not.

God's laws appear to me to be reasonable but my ability to fathom God's reasons is not my basis for accepting them