Is the Sabbath everywhere on the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden?

Which is most correct?

  • The first Sabbath was from morning to morning

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  • Israel remembers the first Sabbath at a different time

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • From morning to evening is the half a day period God called day

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • From evening to morning is the half a day period God called night

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • From evening to evening in Israel is not a local day of the week

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • All of the above

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
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guevaraj

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The Bible shows me that In Israel, the Sabbath is not the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden. Genesis 1:3-5 shows that the first day is from light to light or from morning to morning: Israel remembers to keep the seventh-day Sabbath established in Eden holy by remembering the Sabbath in the time zone of Eden from evening to evening, ten hours before its local seventh day of the week from morning to morning in obedience to God's instructions. This shift of ten hours point to the site of Eden from Israel and fall on the International Date Line. The International Date Line comes from all of us from the beginning: when God taught the human race to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy; before humanity spread throughout the world. This tradition of counting days established the International Date Line without us appreciating its significance in our history until these last days. I have written a book on the subject, "Proof of God in the International Date Line: Site of our Origin", available on all major platforms. I welcome everyone to challenge my point of view. I am willing to provide a free PDF copy to influential people who can promote this book through reviews or other means. Sincerely, Jorge
 
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Bob S

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Where I now live the locals call any time after 12:00 noon evening. Could it be that the ancients reckoned time like the locals? All one would need is a straight pole anchored in the ground perpendicular and use the shadow from the sun to find high noon. That would be a much more accurate way than trying to use sundown as the end of the day, especially in hilly terrain.

Jesus kept the Sabbath of the old covenant in Israel, so if there were any changes due to calendars or moving the starting day of the weekly cycle to a latitude east of New Zealand it would have happened during the new covenant era. Some argue that the Israelites reckoned time using the Lunar cycle, so that the Sabbath was not an every seven-day occurrence.

All this is very interesting, but as far trying to establish that our days of the week are the same as when Jesus walked on this Earth is a coin toss. If it really mattered God would give us a sign so that we know for sure we are resting on a certain day. The fact is that there is no command in the new covenant about keeping days. Paul reiterates over and over that we are not under the ritual laws of the old covenant Gentiles never were under those laws. What is there about becoming Christians that would put them under the old covenant laws. Paul didn't mince words when He wrote to the Galatians, chapter3. He called them foolish for allowing the Jews to persuade them to be old covenant law observers. Jesus said He kept those laws and asks us to keep the laws He gave us. Jn15
 
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Bob S

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Man, I'm having a bad case of deja vu. Eden is in the same time zone as Israel. It's a bit of a stretch, but it is officially the same time zone.
Are you sure it isn't paramnesia? Weed will cause that effect.

I am having a bad case of hives. I am deathly allergic to beef. Someone must have brought some to our card party last night. I even asked if the hors d'oeuvres had any beef in it. If I don't catch it in time I go into anaphylactic shock syndrome. Children's Liquid Benadryl usually nips it in the bud. I may have to make a visit to the ER. Two weeks ago at a party, I had a teaspoon of pâté, liver and cream cheese, and later hives. Phew, I can't stop scratching.:help:^_^

Why am I telling you all of this? Suppose I have paramnesia?

Are you for sure that today is the Sabbath? Can you really count on the Jews for assurance? They have compromised their belief system so many times. Their excuse concerning the IDL is a real hoot.
 
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guevaraj

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Where I now live the locals call any time after 12:00 noon evening. Could it be that the ancients reckoned time like the locals? All one would need is a straight pole anchored in the ground perpendicular and use the shadow from the sun to find high noon. That would be a much more accurate way than trying to use sundown as the end of the day, especially in hilly terrain.

Brother, according to Jewish religious law, Shabbat is observed from a few minutes before sunset on Friday evening until the appearance of three stars in the sky on Saturday night. The more you show love for God by obeying Him the earlier before sunset you will start your Shabbat to avoid violating God’s law. This obedience is attributed to you as faith, in the judgment, which will decide if you are saved or lost by your demonstration of faith through works of obedience to the word of God. Satan is working hard to deceive so that we do not obey God and show through obedience, faith that in the judgment will save you. The Sabbath is one of those foundational tests of faith in the fourth commandment that Satan has worked hard to eliminate, but Peter has forewarned us to keep alert to this error of the lawless in preparation for the return of Jesus.

Jesus kept the Sabbath of the old covenant in Israel, so if there were any changes due to calendars or moving the starting day of the weekly cycle to a latitude east of New Zealand it would have happened during the new covenant era.

Jesus kept the right Sabbath. Judaism to this day remembers the Sabbath correctly in Israel by direct instruction from God to Israel, it is when they live in other places other than Israel, such as here in the United States, that they do the wrong thing by doing what they do in Israel, when the Bible reveals that they need to do something different on every place around the world. Israel is our example, Israel remembers the Sabbath at a different time than the first Sabbath in Eden, because Eden is far from Israel and the Sabbath is not the seventh local day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden.

Some argue that the Israelites reckoned time using the Lunar cycle, so that the Sabbath was not an every seven-day occurrence.

There are two types of Sabbaths in Israel, monthly lunar Sabbaths and weekly Sabbaths. The difference is that on monthly lunar Sabbaths, the preparation day before Sabbath is not always a Friday. This is important in determining how Jesus fulfilled three days and three nights when He died on a day of preparation that is not a Friday and resurrected before Sunday. Jesus resurrected a Saturday night after remembering the Sabbath of Eden in Israel and before Sunday.

All this is very interesting, but as far trying to establish that our days of the week are the same as when Jesus walked on this Earth is a coin toss. If it really mattered God would give us a sign so that we know for sure we are resting on a certain day.

The International Date Line is the sign that you demand that shows that humans have maintained the weekly cycle from the beginning, the Jews are keeping precisely the Sabbath established on the seventh day of the creation week, as verified in our time by the site of the International Date Line.

The fact is that there is no command in the new covenant about keeping days.

The new covenant fulfills the “shadows” of the old. The promise to Adam and Eve of a descendant who would save humanity, Jesus, who replaced the sacrifices of so many animals with the continued forgiveness of sin in the heavenly temple. The new covenant does not end the ten commandments, which is an error that abuses Paul's harder to understand words, forewarned by Peter as the error of the lawless. The Sabbath was not replaced until the bishops of Rome introduced the Sunday-hour of worship, with the rest of the day, business as usual, as a substitute for the Sabbath. Before that, all Christians kept the Jewish Sabbath. In the time of Jesus and the later Jerusalem church of the disciples, Sunday was never thought of as a replacement for the Sabbath, which was later pushed by the bishops of Rome, who consider themselves above the word of God through the prophets by repeating the sin of rejecting God as our king by wanting a human king instead of God as our king.

The people all said to Samuel, "Pray to the LORD your God for your servants so that we will not die, for we have added to all our other sins the evil of asking for a king." (1 Samuel 12:19 NIV)​

The popes are a repetition of people rejecting God as their king and wanting a human king instead. Have you heard that history repeats itself? The mistake of the past is repeated with the pope.

Paul reiterates over and over that we are not under the ritual laws of the old covenant Gentiles never were under those laws. What is there about becoming Christians that would put them under the old covenant laws. Paul didn't mince words when He wrote to the Galatians, chapter3. He called them foolish for allowing the Jews to persuade them to be old covenant law observers.

Many people abuse Paul’s more difficult to understand words to eliminate the ten commandments, but Peter has forewarned us about the error of the lawless, wanting to eliminate the ten commandments.

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. (2 Peter 3:13-18 NIV)​

We have been forewarned of the error of eliminating the ten commandments. Our Creator, the verb, became flesh to die in our place so that we way live showing faith through obedience to the ten commandments as the minimum requirement. He asks more than that minimum, but the least you must obey are the ten commandments expressed by Jesus in Matthew 19:16-22.

Jesus said He kept those laws and asks us to keep the laws He gave us. Jn15

Jesus is the Creator known to us in the Old Testament as Yahweh, He came to His own and they did not recognize Him by His character. The Creator, the verb, who made all things, including us, became flesh and walked among us, but we did not recognize His character. Confirmation that the ten commandments are His commandments follows.

Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. (Matthew 19:16-22 NIV)​

Jesus confirmed and did not correct his understanding of the ten commandments that all Jews value, but the man was not willing to remain faithful to Jesus by following him as expected in this next passage.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 NIV)​

Jesus answered the question of “what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” by saying “if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” But many abuse Paul’s more difficult to understand words to eliminate the ten commandments even though Peter forewarned us to stay alert to this error of the lawless. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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guevaraj

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Man, I'm having a bad case of deja vu. Eden is in the same time zone as Israel. It's a bit of a stretch, but it is officially the same time zone.
Brother, the biblical flood has given us new rivers that are not the rivers before the biblical flood, it is incompetent to use rivers to determine the site of Eden after the biblical flood, they could not think of a better way. The only way to know where Eden was is by the Sabbath in Israel. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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guevaraj

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Can you really count on the Jews for assurance?
Brother, because the Sabbath in Israel shows that Eden falls on the International Date Line, the assurance of the accuracy of the cycle of the week with the Sabbath comes from all of us in all our sites around the world that agree with the International Date Line. The difficulty of correcting the false traditions in the accumulation of so many denominations that refused to abandon their mistakes as the new truths led to daughter churches separated from the mother church has a new positive result, the permanence of established traditions has kept the International Date Line from the beginning as evidence in our time that the Jews accurately maintained the cycle of the week with the Sabbath in Israel. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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BobRyan

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The Bible shows me that In Israel, the Sabbath is not the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden. Genesis 1:3-5 shows that the first day is from light to light or from morning to morning:

It appears that in your OP you are starting with an error in one detail

Gen 1
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it

Lev 23
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest,...from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your Sabbath.”

Brother, according to Jewish religious law, Shabbat is observed from a few minutes before sunset on Friday evening until the appearance of three stars in the sky on Saturday night. The more you show love for God by obeying Him the earlier before sunset you will start your Shabbat to avoid violating God’s law.

That part of your statement is something we can agree on.
 
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guevaraj

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It appears that in your OP you are starting with an error in one detail.
Brother, in short, you force God to say what He chose not to say and I am listening to what He really said. Our tradition forces the word “evening” to represent the word night and the word “morning” to represent the word day when God could have used those words if He had wanted to say what is imposed, having already defined such words in the previous sentence that God chose not to use but instead chose to use other words that we interpret inconsistently with how God shows its use in Leviticus.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

In Leviticus, the word evening is used to start and end a period and is not a period in itself, but in Genesis we force this transition word between two periods to represent one of the two periods it requires to transition from and to, when by using other words He obviously meant to say something else.

It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 NIV)​

According to God’s own example of its use in Leviticus, In Genesis He was referring to the beginning and end of the night that concludes the first day and every subsequent day because He stopped creating and has nothing to report between evening and morning within the week of creation, in contrast He has much to say during the previous light period from morning to evening, every day of creation. I hope you can follow my reasoning when I say that the tradition takes away from what God really said because the word translated as evening has more to say than the word night forced upon Him could say, because night only refers to one period when evening refers to two periods requiring light before going to night. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Bob S

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I wonder why all of the arguments about what is the real truth concerning when the day begins and when it ends and how many minutes before the Sabbath really started and how many minutes it should have been kept after the new day started or what parallel it began really concerns the One who came to save all mankind because every living soul failed to live up to the promise all made at Sinai. (long sentence) Why does that concern some so much when we are not under that covenant made at Sinai. All mankind are now living under the new and better covenant with better promises. It is not like the old one. Jesus explained all of this in John 15. He lived under the laws of the Sinai covenant and asks us to live under the laws of the new covenant. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how the new covenant is just the old one warmed over as some believe. If we truly love Him we will keep His commands. I know I belong to the truth because I believe in Jesus and keep His command to love others as He loves us. Jesus is God and we are asked to keep the commandments of God. If we love God and keep His commandments of love why would we want to take His name in vain? Do we have to subject ourselves to the laws of the old covenant in order to know we are sinning when we use His name in vain?
 
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guevaraj

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I wonder why all of the arguments about what is the real truth concerning when the day begins and when it ends and how many minutes before the Sabbath really started and how many minutes it should have been kept after the new day started or what parallel it began really concerns the One who came to save all mankind because every living soul failed to live up to the promise all made at Sinai. (long sentence) Why does that concern some so much when we are not under that covenant made at Sinai.
Brother, God has made many covenants with us and not just one for us to put everything we do not want, like the Sabbath into it, and make it all go away with the excuse of being under a new covenant. What such thinking has not understood is that God does not change.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NIV)​

And in case you want to differentiate Jesus from the Father with His commands, to know Jesus is to know the Father.

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (John 14:8-9 NIV)​

The new covenant is not new at all, Adam and Eve were promised from the beginning, a descendant who would defeat Satan and save humanity, Jesus, who intercedes for our sins in the heavenly temple under the new covenant that replaces the “shadow” of so many animal sacrifices in the earthly temple of the old covenant. Therefore, It is a mistake to think that God has changed His mind and now asks us less than He asked before because He does not change and has actually asked for more than before. What Jesus really did was to make the ten commandments even more demanding by internalizing its requirements so that only thinking about it without the need for the act is a sin.
All mankind are now living under the new and better covenant with better promises. It is not like the old one. Jesus explained all of this in John 15.
In addition to the sacrifice for sin of the new covenant that replaced the old covenant, God has made many other covenants such as the rainbow covenant where He promises never to destroy humanity again with a flood. More specifically, the Sabbath covenant is "forever", which means it is not replaceable, it has no end, ever.

The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’” (Exodus 31:16-17 NIV)​

Forever means no end, ever.
He lived under the laws of the Sinai covenant and asks us to live under the laws of the new covenant.
Jesus abandoning the ten commandments does not fit the biblical message. What Jesus did was to amplify the interpretation of the ten commandments so that after Jesus, thinking of another woman was adultery without the need for the physical act necessary to be a sin before Jesus. Jesus made the ten commandments more demanding and that is why Christians are better at loving their neighbor, but terrible at loving God; the pendulum has swung. Christians want to think that to love their neighbor is to love God, when the law had two parts: love God and love neighbor as separate sections. The fact is that Jews are better at loving God than neighbor and Christians are better at loving neighbor than God.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out how the new covenant is just the old one warmed over as some believe. If we truly love Him we will keep His commands. I know I belong to the truth because I believe in Jesus and keep His command to love others as He loves us. Jesus is God and we are asked to keep the commandments of God. If we love God and keep His commandments of love why would we want to take His name in vain? Do we have to subject ourselves to the laws of the old covenant in order to know we are sinning when we use His name in vain?
Christians value everything Jesus says about loving other human beings, but unlike Jews, they are not willing to show any love for God. The first four commandments show love for God, including the Sabbath in the fourth commandment and Christians despise this command. The Jews are weak in loving their neighbor, but history shows that they love God in their commitment to the first four commandments, unlike Christians. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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BobRyan

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The Bible shows me that In Israel, the Sabbath is not the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden. Genesis 1:3-5 shows that the first day is from light to light or from morning to morning:

It appears that in your OP you are starting with an error in one detail

Gen 1
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it

Lev 23
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest,...from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your Sabbath.”

Brother, in short, you force God to say what He chose not to say and I am listening to what He really said. Our tradition forces the word “evening” to represent the word night and the word “morning” to represent the word day when God could have used those words if He had wanted to say what is imposed, having already defined such words in the previous sentence that God chose not to use but instead chose to use other words

"God called the light - Day" - so then all during the time when there is light "day".
"God called the darkness - Night" so all during the darkness "Night"
"Evening and morning were the first day" -- here day means a full rotation of the planet and includes both morning and evening. It is a different use of the word for "day" than we find at the start of vs 5.

Context determines meaning in Hebrew.
 
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BobRyan

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In Genesis He was referring to the beginning and end of the night that concludes the first day

You are forcing begin-night -- through - end-night to be called "day" that is "the darkness" you are calling "day"?
 
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guevaraj

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You are forcing begin-night -- through - end-night to be called "day" that is "the darkness" you are calling "day"?
Brother, what I am saying is that the phrase you assume represents the first full 24-hour day is only the second half of the 24-hour day that began before that sentence with a period of light. In summary I am saying the following:
  • there are two uses of the word day in Genesis: 12 hours and 24 hours.
  • morning to morning is the "first day" of 24 hours.
  • from morning to evening is the half a day period God called day.
  • from evening to morning is the half a day period God called night.
  • Israel remembers the first Sabbath in Eden from evening to evening when God kept that first Sabbath from morning to morning.
  • the first day ends with the half-day period that God called night after having started with the half-day period that God called day.
  • the first day ends with evening to morning after having began with morning to evening, evening falls in the center of the first 24-hour day.
When God says in Genesis 3:5 "And there was evening, and there was morning" He is not expressing the full content of the first day, but only expresses the last missing part of the 24 hours, the period of the night that concludes the first day that began with a period of light before that sentence. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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I wonder why all of the arguments about what is the real truth concerning when the day begins and when it ends and how many minutes before the Sabbath really started and how many minutes it should have been kept after the new day started or what parallel it began really concerns the One who came to save all mankind because every living soul failed to live up to the promise all made at Sinai. (long sentence) Why does that concern some so much when we are not under that covenant made at Sinai. All mankind are now living under the new and better covenant with better promises. It is not like the old one. Jesus explained all of this in John 15. He lived under the laws of the Sinai covenant and asks us to live under the laws of the new covenant. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how the new covenant is just the old one warmed over as some believe. If we truly love Him we will keep His commands. I know I belong to the truth because I believe in Jesus and keep His command to love others as He loves us. Jesus is God and we are asked to keep the commandments of God. If we love God and keep His commandments of love why would we want to take His name in vain? Do we have to subject ourselves to the laws of the old covenant in order to know we are sinning when we use His name in vain?

What is the new covenant?
 
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guevaraj

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What is the new covenant?
Brother, you didn't ask me, but this is a question that I can answer with confidence. The new covenant is Jesus replacing the sacrifice of so many animals for the forgiveness of sin. It is not the only covenant God has made with us and also does not replace all previous covenants. It is not new in the sense that it was known from the beginning, because Adam and Eve were told of the coming of Jesus that would replace the forgiveness of sin by its shadow of the sacrifice of a lamb representing Jesus. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Bob S

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Brother, God has made many covenants with us and not just one for us to put everything we do not want, like the Sabbath into it, and make it all go away with the excuse of being under a new covenant. What such thinking has not understood is that God does not change.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NIV)​
Being the same doesn't mean that God has not had different plans for His children down through the ages. It is all part of the Plan of Salvation. At one point Israelites were His chosen. His blessing was poured out to them. Now His blessing is poured out to all mankind who will accept Him. Call it what you want and cling to your cliche that God doesn't change. That doesn't make it true. God had a law that Hebrew men could not shave their sideburns Now that is a simple command that must not have been very important because SDAs shave theirs and claim they are "keeping" the law. If God didn't change His laws because He doesn't change then it appears that you all are in violation of said laws would you not agree?

The fact is that God didn't have to change because in the Plan of Salvation He is just going as planned. He had Jeremiah prophesy that He would be giving Israel and Judah a new covenant. Now you can and have explained away that the covenant isn't really new because as you say God does not change as you quoted in Heb 13. I need to know how it isn't new as per Heb 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
In the first place, the Sinai covenant and our new covenant are concerning different objectives. God told Moses before giving the Sinai covenant to the Israelites the following: 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’ EX19
That covenant had absolutely nothing to do with their salvation as you can plainly read. The new covenant is all about salvation. Keep the covenant and if we fall short salvation is assured through the blood of Jesus.

And in case you want to differentiate Jesus from the Father with His commands, to know Jesus is to know the Father.
That is what Jesus said and I believe Him. They are one God in three persons. Each has a part and all are in one accord.

The new covenant is not new at all, Adam and Eve were promised from the beginning,
(They were promised they would die if the ate of the fruit of the tree.)a descendant who would defeat Satan and save humanity, Jesus, who intercedes for our sins in the heavenly temple under the new covenant that replaces the “shadow” of so many animal sacrifices in the earthly temple of the old covenant.
Hold up there partner. You have lost me Biblically. Where is it you are getting your information about what Adam knew? Could all this be coming from some book produced by your church? I have heard of shadows in Col2:16-17 where it says: 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; Those things are shadows and I will grant you that the sacrificial system was replaced by Jesus on the Cross as the final sacrifice for all mankind, but as to what Adam knew sounds fishy to me.

Therefore, It is a mistake to think that God has changed His mind and now asks us less than He asked before because He does not change and has actually asked for more than before. What Jesus really did was to make the ten commandments even more demanding by internalizing its requirements so that only thinking about it without the need for the act is a sin.
Hmmm! Opinions, opinions sounds to me like an opinion. God hasn't changed His mind. He knew that He would give all mankind not just Israel a covenant of Grace made possible by Jesus. The new covenant is different than the old one. That is not God changing His mind, it is part of His Plan of Salvation. This changing His mind thing was invented by some Sabbath "keeper" who knew that the new covenant was not about being the warmed-over old covenant, but had to invent it to attract new Sabbath triers. It is a very poor excuse for trying to belittle what the new covenant stands for. Paul had some things to tell us about the 10 commandments, In 2Cor3:7-11 he called them the ministry of death, said they were temporary and the KJV says they were done away and replaced with the Holy Spirit. I know it is a hard new lesson after being fed that the 10 commandments are the guiding light of the World. Something to ponder is the fact that the greatest of all commandments, love, is not listed in the 10. Most of the sins found in Gal 5 are not part of the 10 either. All of the 10 are about duty and nothing about love. Not even the command to honor our parents mentions love.

In addition to the sacrifice for sin of the new covenant that replaced the old covenant,
I thought you were going to add all the other additions of the new covenant. If all the new covenant did was to change the sacrifice why does Hebrews tell us 11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood – and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood – why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 8: 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. Law being changed, better promises??? That doesn't jive with your definition does it? If indeed you got all your information from some book I would pitch it.


God has made many other covenants such as the rainbow covenant where He promises never to destroy humanity again with a flood. More specifically, the Sabbath covenant is "forever", which means it is not replaceable, it has no end, ever.

The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’” (Exodus 31:16-17 NIV)​

Forever means no end, ever.
More belief that doesn't jive with scripture. God said to Moses in Ex19:5-6 that the covenant He was making with Israel and Israel only was an "if" covenant. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’ They didn't keep the covenant and the covenant with its 613 laws that included the Sabbath requirement became void. It all ended at Calvary when Jesus introduced the replacement covenant, the new and better covenant. The one with better promises. There were a lot of "forevers" in the Old Testament that are not in existence today. And even if it were in existence today it would be a promise to Israel not to any Gentile. Gentiles were never subject to the Sabbath command.


Jesus abandoning the ten commandments does not fit the biblical message. What Jesus did was to amplify the interpretation of the ten commandments so that after Jesus, thinking of another woman was adultery without the need for the physical act necessary to be a sin before Jesus. Jesus made the ten commandments more demanding and that is why Christians are better at loving their neighbor, but terrible at loving God; the pendulum has swung. Christians want to think that to love their neighbor is to love God, when the law had two parts: love God and love neighbor as separate sections. The fact is that Jews are better at loving God than neighbor and Christians are better at loving neighbor than God.
Jesus lived and taught under the old covenant. He didn't ratify the new covenant until Calvary. He taught the law He was under. we have to take that into consideration when we study the covenants. Jesus also made some laws in the book of the law more demanding. That doesn't prove that Christians are under the 10 commandments.

Christians value everything Jesus says about loving other human beings, but unlike Jews, they are not willing to show any love for God.
That really offends me my friend. You are not the judge and you really should consider what you write. I happen to know a lot of what your church teaches and just because I do not cowtow to the beat of the drum doesn't mean I don't love my Savior. You think because I don't observe the old covenant Israelite only defunct Sabbath I really don't love Jesus? Yep, you got my dander up.

The first four commandments show love for God, including the Sabbath in the fourth commandment and Christians despise this command.
I know you have been taught that and I will take it into consideration. You are just mimicking what you hear and read from narrow-minded beliefs. You have no idea what we despise, but I can tell you what I despise. I despise being told by some that I will go to Hell because I don't keep the Sabbath of the old covenant that was given only to the Israelites. There is absolutely no truth in what you believe. I don't despise the 4th command, but I know it was a ritual command and it was for Israel only. It was sandwiched between the commands that deal with morality. Laws dealing with morality are eternal. Israel's feasts, new moons, eat and drink laws and Sabbath days had nothing to do with how we treat our fellow mand, ourselves or God.

The Jews are weak in loving their neighbor, but history shows that they love God in their commitment to the first four commandments, unlike Christians. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
You have bought in hook, line and sinker and I pray that you listen to the Holy Spirit and block out all that have caused you to believe you have to keep a day in order to be saved.
 
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guevaraj

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Being the same doesn't mean that God has not had different plans for His children down through the ages. It is all part of the Plan of Salvation.
Brother, God has not changed his plan of salvation, it is still the same plan from the beginning.

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. (Isaiah 46:10a NIV)​

We are the ones who are growing in our understanding of His plan, but God had His plan from the beginning.
At one point Israelites were His chosen. His blessing was poured out to them. Now His blessing is poured out to all mankind who will accept Him. Call it what you want and cling to your cliche that God doesn't change. That doesn't make it true.
God’s plan was always for all mankind, we who accepted Jesus are Israelites and no longer Gentiles, we have been “grafted” into Israel. From God’s point of view, Israel has been divided into two parts, the part that accepted Jesus and the part that did not, but God has not abandoned His other sheep that He will bring back into His fold and there will be one flock and one Shepherd. How can it not be true when it is written? I am not sharing my own words, but those of the word of God. He does not change; He is the same yesterday and today and forever. Israel has not been abandoned, we are Israel, the part of Israel that excepted Jesus and God has not abandoned the other part that rejected Jesus, He will bring His other sheep into the fold and there will be one flock and one Shepherd.
God had a law that Hebrew men could not shave their sideburns Now that is a simple command that must not have been very important because SDAs shave theirs and claim they are "keeping" the law. If God didn't change His laws because He doesn't change then it appears that you all are in violation of said laws would you not agree?
That is a covenant for His nation, a nation that will be restored when God unites both parts of Israel into one flock and one Shepherd. Currently we are still divided into two parts and the restoration of His nation was revealed to the church of Thyatira.

To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze… ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, except to hold on to what you have until I come.’ To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give that one the morning star. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 2:18-29 NIV)​

When Jesus returns, the nation of Israel will be restored for a thousand years. This is my own reading of the word of God and my church has not understood it.
The fact is that God didn't have to change because in the Plan of Salvation He is just going as planned. He had Jeremiah prophesy that He would be giving Israel and Judah a new covenant.
I am glad that you have realized that the new covenant is not for the gentiles as separate from Israel, it is God’s plan for Israel to save all humanity and we who follow Jesus are Israelites and no longer Gentiles.
Now you can and have explained away that the covenant isn't really new because as you say God does not change as you quoted in Heb 13. I need to know how it isn't new as per Heb 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
It was new to Jews who had been practicing the old, but it is not new to God who had His plan from the beginning. It is superior in that our High Priest, Jesus, has no sin and never dies, the word of God explains why Jesus' ministry is superior to the shadow of the old for the forgiveness of sin.
In the first place, the Sinai covenant and our new covenant are concerning different objectives. God told Moses before giving the Sinai covenant to the Israelites the following: 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’ EX19 That covenant had absolutely nothing to do with their salvation as you can plainly read.
God made many covenants and not just one to replace all previous covenants. The covenant you are referring to is for the “nation”, to be separate and distinct from other nations.
The new covenant is all about salvation.
It replaced the covenant of the forgiveness of sin and not the covenant of the nation. It was expected that salvation through the forgiveness of sin would change from the beginning, the lamb was symbol of Jesus' death.
Keep the covenant and if we fall short salvation is assured through the blood of Jesus.
In the old covenant, if you fall short, they had a way to achieve forgiveness with the shadow of the animal sacrifices that represented Jesus' future death, as well as Jesus' current daily ministry in the heavenly temple as our High Priest offers His shed blood to grant forgiveness if we fall short, as was also available in the old covenant. No one was really forgiven for the death of an animal, only the death of Jesus saves us after Jesus and saves those before Jesus who were under the old covenant.
That is what Jesus said and I believe Him. They are one God in three persons. Each has a part and all are in one accord.
I agree, but that means that all three are the same yesterday and today and forever, God does not change. The love that was shown to Him in the past is the same love He expects today. You assume to know what love is, but God did not assume us to know what love is, He defined it for us with the ten commandments. You know that a definition cannot use the word it is defining. The ten commandments define how to love God and how to love our neighbor without using the word it is defining. Let’s hear it confirmed by Jesus:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28 NIV)​

God has not left the word love for us to define, He has already defined it for us. The expert in the law has summed up the ten commandments as love for God and love for neighbor. And Jesus affirmed his understanding of the ten commandments.
Hold up there partner. You have lost me Biblically. Where is it you are getting your information about what Adam knew? Could all this be coming from some book produced by your church? I have heard of shadows in Col2:16-17 where it says: 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; Those things are shadows and I will grant you that the sacrificial system was replaced by Jesus on the Cross as the final sacrifice for all mankind, but as to what Adam knew sounds fishy to me.
The following passage was revealed to Adam and Eve about the coming of Jesus:

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” (Genesis 3:13-15 NIV)​

God is telling Satan, who is behind the serpent, that a descendent of the women will crush his head, a deadly non-survivable wound, and that Satan will heart Jesus in a survivable way, Satan managed to kill Jesus, but He resurrected. It is symbolic, so you may not see it if you are not familiar with the use of symbolism in the Bible. For example, when God follows the thread of all those responsible and leaves no one unpunished, you understand that something He has said applies to Satan.
Hmmm! Opinions, opinions sounds to me like an opinion. God hasn't changed His mind. He knew that He would give all mankind not just Israel a covenant of Grace made possible by Jesus. The new covenant is different than the old one. That is not God changing His mind, it is part of His Plan of Salvation. This changing His mind thing was invented by some Sabbath "keeper" who knew that the new covenant was not about being the warmed-over old covenant, but had to invent it to attract new Sabbath triers. It is a very poor excuse for trying to belittle what the new covenant stands for.
The new covenant is the reality of the shadows of the old covenant with the animal sacrifices and the replacement of the inferior way of human priests that were replaced with the superior way of the sinless High Priest, Jesus, who never dies, that was God’s plan all along.
 
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guevaraj

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Paul had some things to tell us about the 10 commandments, In 2Cor3:7-11 he called them the ministry of death, said they were temporary and the KJV says they were done away and replaced with the Holy Spirit. I know it is a hard new lesson after being fed that the 10 commandments are the guiding light of the World. Something to ponder is the fact that the greatest of all commandments, love, is not listed in the 10. Most of the sins found in Gal 5 are not part of the 10 either. All of the 10 are about duty and nothing about love. Not even the command to honor our parents mentions love.
Now you have reached the heart of your error, the error of the lawless, those who want to make God’s definition of love disappear so that they are unbound by God's sensibilities. Peter warned us about Paul's harder to understand words that are used to eliminate God’s definition of love of God and neighbor in the ten commandments.

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. (2 Peter 3:13-18 NIV)​

The ten commandments are God’s definition of love for God and neighbor and, as in all definitions, the word defined is not used in the definition, but when an expert in the law summarized his own reading of it as love for God and neighbor, Jesus confirmed his summing of the ten commandments as the definition of God's telling of how to love God and neighbor that Christians suppose to know instinctively without needing God’s own definition that shows that they do not love God and only love their neighbor as other humanists who despise religion but they also love humans and dedicate their lives to helping those in need.
I thought you were going to add all the other additions of the new covenant. If all the new covenant did was to change the sacrifice why does Hebrews tell us 11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood – and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood – why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 8: 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. Law being changed, better promises??? That doesn't jive with your definition does it? If indeed you got all your information from some book I would pitch it.
Under the eternal life of Jesus as our High Priest, we can grow to perfection because He does not die as the earthly priests do and will never be changed as the earthly priests are changed because they die and need to be replaced. With Jesus we are sure that the work that began in us can be completed without a change of priesthood before the work is completed in us.
More belief that doesn't jive with scripture. God said to Moses in Ex19:5-6 that the covenant He was making with Israel and Israel only was an "if" covenant. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’ They didn't keep the covenant and the covenant with its 613 laws that included the Sabbath requirement became void. It all ended at Calvary when Jesus introduced the replacement covenant, the new and better covenant. The one with better promises. There were a lot of "forevers" in the Old Testament that are not in existence today. And even if it were in existence today it would be a promise to Israel not to any Gentile. Gentiles were never subject to the Sabbath command.
Salvation has always been conditional to the obedience attributed to us as faith. Israel did not fail, we are descendants of the part of Israel that excepted Jesus, there is another part of Israel that rejected Jesus and God will bring His other sheep into His fold, He has not given up on them and will save all of Israel. The definition of love in the ten commandments was never void, that is an abuse of Paul's harder to understand words that Peter forewarned us about that are used to defend the error of the lawless. The fact is that the ten commandments show that Christians do not love God and are not much better than humanists who despise religion while dedicating their lives to those in need.
Jesus lived and taught under the old covenant. He didn't ratify the new covenant until Calvary. He taught the law He was under. we have to take that into consideration when we study the covenants. Jesus also made some laws in the book of the law more demanding. That doesn't prove that Christians are under the 10 commandments.
You have not understood the ministry of Jesus having said the following:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)​

Until the earth is made new, not everything is accomplished and, therefore, the ten commandments have not disappeared with their definition of how to show love for God in the first four commandments that include the Sabbath. Recognizing that Jesus made some commandments more demanding does not convince you because you have not understood what the ten commandments are, they are the definition of love for God and neighbor as expressed by the expert in the law and confirmed by Jesus.
That really offends me my friend. You are not the judge and you really should consider what you write. I happen to know a lot of what your church teaches and just because I do not cowtow to the beat of the drum doesn't mean I don't love my Savior. You think because I don't observe the old covenant Israelite only defunct Sabbath I really don't love Jesus? Yep, you got my dander up.
I am not using my own invented measure; I am using God’s definition of love for God and neighbor in the ten commandments that show Christians do not love God in their refusal to remember to keep the Sabbath holy that God established in the week of creation.
I know you have been taught that and I will take it into consideration. You are just mimicking what you hear and read from narrow-minded beliefs. You have no idea what we despise, but I can tell you what I despise. I despise being told by some that I will go to Hell because I don't keep the Sabbath of the old covenant that was given only to the Israelites. There is absolutely no truth in what you believe. I don't despise the 4th command, but I know it was a ritual command and it was for Israel only. It was sandwiched between the commands that deal with morality. Laws dealing with morality are eternal. Israel's feasts, new moons, eat and drink laws and Sabbath days had nothing to do with how we treat our fellow mand, ourselves or God.
I don't believe everything my church tells me, I know they are not keeping God's true Sabbath with their tradition, a mistake I am teaching everyone to correct. I know that the ten commandments are the definition of God’s way to show love for God and neighbor, not because my church has told me but because it is in the word of God.
You have bought in hook, line and sinker and I pray that you listen to the Holy Spirit and block out all that have caused you to believe you have to keep a day in order to be saved.
I am saved by the faith demonstrated by obedience to God’s ten commandments that define how I am to show love for God and neighbor as the minimum requirement and the Holy Spirit will ask me the rest, the rest He will have me due for the rest of my life. I don't define love; God has defined it for me with the ten commandments. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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