Did we miss our turn somewhere?

Christian Gedge

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Why not? they are some sort of binding agent! What form they take is unknown, but I don't doubt this to be literal. And chains is English- the greek is desmon and simply means to be bound!
Maybe demons can be bound now? Maybe Satan got bound at Calvary? Just a thought Dad.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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My point exactly.The text says EVERY eye will see Him....
That points quite clearly to a future time.If it were in 70 A.D.,It would have been impossible for EVERY eye to see Him.
Yeah, that is a little difficult to explain to the unbelieving Jews of today [as well as Christian Futurists] being fulfilled in the 1st century............

Revelation 1:7 "....and every eye shall be seeing Him......"

Will every eye in the global world view this event literally?
I will be putting up commentaries on it as this thread progresses.
Discuss

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with the clouds, and shall-be-seeing/oyetai <3700> (5695) Him Every eye/ofqalmoV <3788> , even who any Him they pierce<1574>.
And shall be wailing/grieving<2875> over Him all the Tribes of the Land. Yea Amen.
[Jeremiah 4:13/Zechariah 12:10]

3700. optanomai , a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai op'-tom-ahee; which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of 3708
to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from 991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from 1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while 2300, and still more emphatically its intensive 2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and 4648 a watching from a distance):--appear, look, see, shew self.
G3700 ὀπτάνομαι (optanomai) occurs 1 times in 1 verses

3788. ophthalmos from 3700;
the eye (literally or figuratively); by implication, vision; figuratively, envy (from the jealous side-glance):--eye, sight.
G3788 ὀφθαλμός (ophthalmos) occurs 100 times in 85 verses


Some derivatives of 3700:

3701. optasia from a presumed derivative of 3700; visuality, i.e. (concretely) an apparition:--vision.
3708. horao properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:--behold, perceive, see, take heed.
========================

Pulpit Commentary
Verses 7, 8. - It is difficult to determine the exact connexion of these verses with one another, and with what precedes and follows. It seems best to make ver. 7 a kind of appendix to the salutation, and ver. 8 a kind of prelude to the whole book. They each give us one of the fundamental thoughts of the Apocalypse; ver. 7, Christ's certain return to judgment; ver. 8, his perfect Divinity. Verse 7. - He cometh. He who loveth us and cleansed us and made us to be a kingdom will assuredly come. While interpreting the verse of the second advent, we need not exclude the coming to "those who pierced him" in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to "the tribes of the earth" in the breakup of the Roman empire. With the clouds. This probably refers to Mark 14:62, "Ye shall see the Son of man ... coming with the clouds of heaven" (comp. Daniel 7:13, "Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven"). Aquinas and other writers make the clouds symbolize the saints, "who rain by preaching, glisten by working miracles, are lifted up by refusing earthly things, fly by lofty contemplation." And they also; better, and all they who (οἵτινες) pierced him. This is strong evidence of common authorship between the Fourth Gospel and the Apocalypse.

(1) St. John alone mentions the piercing.

(2) Here and in John 19:37 the writer, in quoting Zechariah 12:10, deserts the LXX. and follows the Masoretic Hebrew text. The LXX. softens down "pierced" into "insulted" (κάτωρχήσατο), "piercing" appearing a violent expression to use respecting men's treatment of Jehovah.

(3) Here and in John 19:37 the writer, in translating from the Hebrew, uses the uncommon Greek word ἐκκεντᾷν. The reference here is to all those who "crucify the Son of God afresh," not merely to the Jews. In what follows the Revised Version is to be preferred: "and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him? The wording is similar to Matthew 24:30 and the LXX. of Zechariah 12:10. The mourning is that of beating the breast, not wailing, and it is "over him" (ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν). Even so, Amen. Ναί Αμήν, like "Abba, Father" (Mark 4:36; Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6), combines a Hebrew word with its Greek equivalent (comp. 2 Corinthians 1:20).
==============================
CONTINUED...................
 
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BABerean2

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And of course your side has the secret code to understand the chronological order and found outside of Scripture the meaning of the symbols! I have heard this many times with the cults.

There is no secret code, if you let the New Testament define the symbols.
Christ defines the symbol of the "candlesticks" in Revelation 1:20. Do you believe what Jesus said?

Paul defines the "olive trees" in Romans 11:24. Do you believe what Paul said?
Now you know the identity of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, based on the words of Christ and Paul.

We have symbols in the sun, moon, and stars, in Revelation 6, just as we have them in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ. Why are the characters at the end of the chapter hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present at that point in time?

The Second Coming is also found at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead, found in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.


It is found when Christ "comes as a thief" at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16.


It is found in chapter 19.

It is also found when the fire comes at the end of chapter 20, just as Paul described Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and Peter described the fire coming on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13.


.
 
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Dave L

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Revelation 20
Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

So Satan was bound from Pentecost till whenever you have figured out He will be loosed again? Wow.

Somebody should have let Pewter and paul know they both warned us about Satan prowling around looking to destroy. but then again they were not amillenial. Thjey were expecting God to keep His word and give a physical kingdom here on earth with Messiah regining, just as it is propheisied legions of times in the OT.

But being an amillenialist- I suspect y0u hold to a form of covenant theology and also hold to a more allegorical interpretation of Scripture! It do appear that way from your answers.


“And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.” Revelation 20:1–3 (KJV 1900)

This prevents him from continuing his deception of the gentiles as in OT times. In the NT, all nations receive the Gospel as promised to Abraham. This doesn't fit into any "millennial" scheme. They show the binding (the preaching of the gospel to the nations) happening after the "Millennium".
 
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Dave L

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Would you have it like the watchtower where He sneaks in and rules as an invisible spirit creature????
The chain is a symbol of the Gospel. Physical chains cannot bind spirits. Is the Red Dragon literal too?
 
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Dave L

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Not really is it still teh kingdom! Jesus stops reigning after the kingdom is finished with the great white throne!

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 King James Version (KJV)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
This means Jesus now rules until the resurrection when the world ends and the kingdom is at home in the New Heavens and earth. No Millennium. The kingdom is forever.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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The chain is a symbol of the Gospel. Physical chains cannot bind spirits. Is the Red Dragon literal too?
Dragons are also mentioned in the Hebrew OT :angel:

Dragon - Wikipedia
A dragon is a large, serpent-like legendary creature that appears in the folklore of many cultures around the world. Beliefs about dragons vary drastically by region, but dragons in western cultures since the High Middle Ages have often been depicted as winged, horned, four-legged, and capable of breathing fire. Dragons in eastern cultures are usually depicted as wingless, four-legged, serpentine creatures with above-average intelligence.
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
H8577

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. dragon, serpent, sea monster
    1. dragon or dinosaur
    2. sea or river monster
    3. serpent, venomous snake
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
תַּנִּין tannîyn, tan-neen'; or תַּנִּים tannîym; (Ezekiel 29:3), intensive from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent or jackal:—dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.

Neh 2:13
And I go out through the gate of the valley by night, and unto the front of the fountain of the dragon, and unto the gate of the dunghill, and I am measuring about the walls of Jerusalem, that are broken down, and its gates consumed with fire.
Job 7:12
A sea-monster am I, or a dragon, That thou settest over me a guard?
Psa 91:13
On lion and asp thou treadest, Thou trampest young lion and dragon.
Isa 27:1
In that day lay a charge doth Jehovah, With his sword -- the sharp, and the great, and the strong, On leviathan -- a fleeing serpent, And on leviathan -- a crooked serpent, And He hath slain the dragon that is in the sea.
Isa 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of Jehovah, Awake, as in days of old, generations of the ages, Art not Thou it that is hewing down Rahab, Piercing a dragon!
Jer 51:34
Devoured us, crushed us, hath Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, He hath set us as an empty vessel, He hath swallowed us as a dragon, He hath filled his belly with my dainties, He hath driven us away.
Jer 51:37
And Babylon hath been for heaps, A habitation of dragons, An astonishment, and a hissing, without inhabitant.
Eze 29:3
Speak, and thou hast said: Thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt! The great dragon that is crouching in the midst of his floods, Who hath said, My flood is my own, And I -- I have made it for myself.
Eze 32:2
'Son of man, lift up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and thou hast said unto him: A young lion of nations thou hast been like, And thou art as a dragon in the seas, And thou comest forth with thy flowings, And dost trouble the waters with thy feet, And thou dost foul their flowings
================================
70ad Jerusalem is also symbolized as Egypt and Babylon......

Revelation 11:8
and their dead bodies are upon the broad-place of the great city (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified,)

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:1
After these I saw another Messenger descending<2597> out of the heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated<5461> out of the glory<1391> of Him
2 and He cries out<2896> in a strong voice, saying,
"She Falls! She falls! Babylon the great, and She became a habitation<2732> of demons, and a hold/prison<5438> of every unclean<169> spirit, and a hold of every bird, unclean and having been hated.


Lam 4:3
Even dragons have drawn out the breast, They have suckled their young ones,
The daughter of my people is become cruel, Like the ostriches in a wilderness.

=========================
 
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The Righterzpen

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No knock on you good sir, but this is where people take "WRONG TURNS" and go down rabbit holes. People don't study the word and its seeming contradictions hard enough. If things appear to contradict, study the root words, God is never wrong, we are as humans in error most of the time.

The word "SHORTLY" has two numbers behind it, meaning it was not really one word but two in the Greek, or it took two Greek words to describe what the KJV Translators translated in one word. Shortly is not wrong in and of itself, it's our understanding of even that meaning that has evolved over 100's of years, like gay in the 30's meant happy, today, sadly, most see it as a Homosexual.

Original King James Bible {1611 version with Strongs}

Revelation 1:1 ¶ The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

SHORTLY {Greek meaning}
1722 = EN
which means, a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state)
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

5034 = TACHOS which means 1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)


From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So SHORTLY doesn't mean it will come to pass shortly, it means FAST, the Greek word TACHOS is where we get the English word tachometer from, so what does Jesus mean when he says shortly here in verse 1 ?

Well EN means at a FIXED point in time {no one knows but the Father remember ? } Jesus will return {when the Father sends him} and when that happens Jesus will come IN HASTE or SPEEDILY, or in a BRIEF BLINK OF AN EYE, or in a SHORT BURST OF TIME {SHORTLY}. The Strong Concordance tells us what it means, Speedily, Quickly, in Haste, in a Brief space of time. It doesn't mean SOON in our lives, it means when Jesus returns, at a FIXED POINT IN TIME.....It will happen with a BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, here I am, you see, God/Jesus are everywhere in reality, it will probably just take a thought or command and Jesus will be here within a second or two.

So to those who go down these wrong paths, if something seems contradictory, don't base your whole eschatology on an uncertainty, study your root words.

So no, Jesus never said he was coming shortly, he said when he comes he would do so SPEEDILY or in haste.

You have given me fodder for the next segment of my End Times Bible study. Thank you!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Dave L said:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.Revelation 22:6 (KJV 1900)

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?
No knock on you good sir, but this is where people take "WRONG TURNS" and go down rabbit holes. People don't study the word and its seeming contradictions hard enough. If things appear to contradict, study the root words, God is never wrong, we are as humans in error most of the time.
The word "SHORTLY" has two numbers behind it, meaning it was not really one word but two in the Greek, or it took two Greek words to describe what the KJV Translators translated in one word. Shortly is not wrong in and of itself, it's our understanding of even that meaning that has evolved over 100's of years, like gay in the 30's meant happy, today, sadly, most see it as a Homosexual.

Original King James Bible {1611 version with Strongs}

Revelation 1:1 ¶ The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

SHORTLY {Greek meaning}
1722 = EN
which means, a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state)
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

5034 = TACHOS which means 1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)


From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So SHORTLY doesn't mean it will come to pass shortly, it means FAST, the Greek word TACHOS is where we get the English word tachometer from, so what does Jesus mean when he says shortly here in verse 1 ?

Well EN means at a FIXED point in time {no one knows but the Father remember ? } Jesus will return {when the Father sends him} and when that happens Jesus will come IN HASTE or SPEEDILY, or in a BRIEF BLINK OF AN EYE, or in a SHORT BURST OF TIME {SHORTLY}. The Strong Concordance tells us what it means, Speedily, Quickly, in Haste, in a Brief space of time. It doesn't mean SOON in our lives, it means when Jesus returns, at a FIXED POINT IN TIME.....It will happen with a BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, here I am, you see, God/Jesus are everywhere in reality, it will probably just take a thought or command and Jesus will be here within a second or two.

So to those who go down these wrong paths, if something seems contradictory, don't base your whole eschatology on an uncertainty, study your root words.

So no, Jesus never said he was coming shortly, he said when he comes he would do so SPEEDILY or in haste.
That would make a great topic for a thread........oh wait...there is one!

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION 1st century Jerusalem 70ad

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and consummation<4930> of the Age?

Luke 21:31

Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing These-things becoming ye are knowing that nigh/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God.

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

Revelation 1:1
An-un-veiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>

https://www.preteristarchive.com/0000_geiser_greek-words.html

There are at least five Greek terms denoting relative time factors in regards to "near future" events prophesied to take place within the first century milieu or genea (see Matthew 24:34). We think that many who have skirted the topic of Bible prophecy, or gone much further into it in their studies, may believe that those who have accepted a preterist chronology are isolated and very much in the minority. thus, we have done some research into several terms and have comments from a few lexicographers which may reveal some concepts heretofore unknown to some.

Enguteron

This adverb is a hapax, i.e., found only once in the New Testament. It is translated "nearer" in the King James Version in Romans 13:11b. An interesting observation first, however, is that in 13:11a, "high time" in the King James Version should read translated, "and this, knowing the time, it is now an HOUR for you to be raised out of sleep," hoti hoora eedee humas ex hupnou egertheenai.... Compare John in writing his first epistle a few years later from Romans, "young children, a last hour it is," paidia, eschatee hoora estin...While Jesus was on earth He said, "marvel not at this, because is coming an hour in which all the ones in the tombs will hear the voice of him and will come forth the (ones) the good things having done to a resurrection of life, the (ones) the evil things having done to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28, 29). In sequence then, in that first century setting, Jesus said an hour was coming. Paul says 28 years later it is now an hour for the Roman saints to be raised out of sleep, and John a few years after that said it was the last hour.

Thus, we have this time element with the term hoora or hour indicating nearness and agreeing very well with Romans 13:11b. As mentioned, this adverb is derived from another adverb engus (next in our study), being a comparative in usage (Harper, Thayer, Vine, Liddel & Scott, and Arndt & Gingrich, under the term).
The rendering here is favored by the word order in Romans 13:11b, "Salvation is nearer to us than when we believed." "The reference is apparently to the Lord's second coming, rather than to future glory" (Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, p. 747)."More specifically, eschatology now gives greater intensity to the exhortation, so that one occasionally speaks of a watchman's cry" (E. Kasemann, Commentary on Romans, p. 362; comments on 11-14; compare J. Weiss, "Beitrage," 245; Michel; Balz, TDNT, VIII, 554). "Certainly it is apparent here (Romans 13:11, CG) that imminent expectation was originally the basis of Christian admonition" (Grabner-Haider, Paraklese, 108ff.). We suggest that the salvation of the Roman saints was nearer than when they first believed because the second advent, the establishment of the kingdom of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and the judgment day (compare Romans 13:12a) were all nearer in collation to the fall of Jerusalem in A.D.70 (look at Luke 21:28-32; Greek translation of Hebrews 1:14).

Engus

This adverb is variously translated "nigh," "near," at hand," "nigh at hand," "from," and "ready" in the King James Version. It is found some thirty times in the New Testament. It is "nigh" in such places as Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:29; Luke 19:11; John 6:4; Acts 9:38; Romans 10:8; Hebrews 6:8. It is translated "at hand" in Matthew 26:18; John 2:13; 7:2; Philippians 4:5; Revelation 1:3; 22:10. It is "near" in Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:28; John 3:23; 11:54. It is "nigh at hand" in Luke 21:30,31; John 11:55; 19:42. "From" in Acts 1:12; and "ready" in Hebrews 8:13b (this last passage literally becomes "(is) near vanishing" in reference to the first covenant or diatheekee.

Harper's Greek Lexicon says the term translates "near" (p.111). Liddell & Scott says "of time, nigh at hand" (p.189). Thayer remarks under the term that "it concerns things imminent and soon to come to pass. "Summer," Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30. Of the coming crucifixion, Matthew 26:18. (Writer's note: does this term giving us "near" mean the same in Revelation 22:10 as it does in Matthew 26:18? No doubt about it in the Matthew passage, why doubt in Revelation passage?) Of the kingdom of God, Luke 21:21 (apply Luke 21:31 with Mark 9:1 and Matthew 16:27,28 rather than Mark 9:1 with Acts 2!) In reference to time, Revelation 1:3c. Of the near advent of persons: of Christ's return from heaven, ho kurios engus, Philippians 4:5. With the addition epi thurais, at the door ("it"), Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29. Near to being cursed, engus kataras, Hebrews 6:8. Soon to vanish (the covenant), aphanismou, Hebrews 8:13 (Thayer, Greek Lexicon, pp. 164,165).

"The term with echon (Acts 1:12), present participle neuter of echoo, to have, R.V., 'nigh unto...off' (KJV 'from' nigh unto' with reference to death, Philippians 2:27) is the neuter of the adjective parapleesios, near, nearly resembling" (Vine, New Testament Words, under "Hand," "nigh," "Near," "Ready"). Arndt & Gingrich on a few passages: of the parousia, Philippians 4:5; compare I Clement 21:3. "The word is close to you," engus sou to hreema estin, explained by what follows, Romans 10:8. "At (your) very door," engus epi thurais, Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29 (Greek Lexicon, p.213). "Drawing nigh" (John 6:19) is literally "becoming nigh" (Wycliff, "to be made next to the boat"). Romans 10:8 to Vincent, "very nigh thee is the word." Hebrews 8:13 would read, "is nigh unto vanishing" (referring to the first covenant). the whole phrase would translate "but that which is becoming old and waxing aged is nigh unto vanishing" (see Vincent, Word Studies, under all verses under "Engus," II).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Berean Tim said:
Revelation 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
Who pierced Jesus? These people will "see Him" so are they alive or are they dead?
And why would only the Tribes of the land mourn him?
Both the Romans and the Jews saw the wrath and vengeance upon 70ad Jerusalem......

Luk 21:22
For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Question about the High Priest seeing Jesus coming on clouds of heaven

John 19:37
and again another Writing saith, 'They shall look to him whom they did pierce.'

Reve 1:7
Behold! He doth come with the clouds, and see Him shall every eye, even those who did pierce Him,..............

1574. ekkenteo ek-ken-teh'-o from 1537 and the base of 2759;
to transfix:--pierce.
1537. ek ek or ex ex a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out.........
2759. kentron ken'-tron from kenteo
(to prick); a point ("centre"), i.e. a sting (figuratively, poison) or goad (figuratively, divine impulse):--prick, sting

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced/enuxen<3572> His side,.............

3572. nusso noos'-so apparently a primary word; to prick ("nudge"):--pierce.

So going by that, both the Jewish Rulers and the Roman soldiers who speared Jesus will also see Jesus on the clouds of heaven since: "shall be seeing Him every eye,..........
 
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nolidad

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Maybe demons can be bound now? Maybe Satan got bound at Calvary? Just a thought Dad.

Well Paul in Ephesians and Peter in 1 Peter both said Satan is free and roaming and we have spiritual warfare! He was defeated at Calvary, but not bound. He is still god of this world, but every day brings his rule closer to an end.
 
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nolidad

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There is no secret code, if you let the New Testament define the symbols.
Christ defines the symbol of the "candlesticks" in Revelation 1:20. Do you believe what Jesus said?

Paul defines the "olive trees" in Romans 11:24. Do you believe what Paul said?
Now you know the identity of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, based on the words of Christ and Paul.

We have symbols in the sun, moon, and stars, in Revelation 6, just as we have them in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ. Why are the characters at the end of the chapter hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present at that point in time?

The Second Coming is also found at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead, found in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.


It is found when Christ "comes as a thief" at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16.


It is found in chapter 19.

It is also found when the fire comes at the end of chapter 20, just as Paul described Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and Peter described the fire coming on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13.


.

Well I do believe that Scripture defines its symbols.

As to why the characters are hiding? It is because wrath is being poured out from heaven! Jesus is not present! Your rev. 11 quote shows Jesus is still in heaven. But judgment does not happen at Rev. 11.

REv. 19 not 14 is the second coming! And the second coming is not as a thief in the night. But as Matt. 24, Rev. 1 and Rev. 19 all show- When Jesus returns- it is open,clear, and globally known. After all the antichrist has gathered the armies of the woreld to fight Jesus- not what you would call a thief in the night.

But the rapture is when Jesus comes as a thief! It can happen any time!

Rev. 20 is at the end of Jesus reign as King of the earth. When Satan is loosed and gathers one final rebellion. The God the Father sends down fire- not Jesus. That is the problem when you hold to an allegorical viewpoint! YOu make fire mean the same thing so much of the time. Context determines meaning- not some allegorical hermeneutic.
 
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nolidad

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“And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.” Revelation 20:1–3 (KJV 1900)

This prevents him from continuing his deception of the gentiles as in OT times. In the NT, all nations receive the Gospel as promised to Abraham. This doesn't fit into any "millennial" scheme. They show the binding (the preaching of the gospel to the nations) happening after the "Millennium".

Well when we wish to redefine terms we can make scripture say anything.

But Peter and Paul witness against this covenant allegorical opinion.
 
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nolidad

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The chain is a symbol of the Gospel. Physical chains cannot bind spirits. Is the Red Dragon literal too?

Well the red dragon is defined by Scripture as teh devil. Now show where the chains are the preaching of the gospel!

All we know is Satan is bound by an angel that comes down with a chain and a key (what is the key? the Keys given to Peter? )

And binds him for 1,000 years. There is no warrant or implication that the 1,000 years should not be taken literally. But amillenialists and preterists think they can get away with allegorizing this away because this time frame is found in revelation which does have symbols.

Maybe Jesus physically returning to earth is just a symbol also to you?
 
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Berean Tim

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And why would only the Tribes of the land mourn him?
Both the Romans and the Jews saw the wrath and vengeance upon 70ad Jerusalem......

Luk 21:22
For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Question about the High Priest seeing Jesus coming on clouds of heaven

John 19:37
and again another Writing saith, 'They shall look to him whom they did pierce.'

Reve 1:7
Behold! He doth come with the clouds, and see Him shall every eye, even those who did pierce Him,..............

1574. ekkenteo ek-ken-teh'-o from 1537 and the base of 2759;
to transfix:--pierce.
1537. ek ek or ex ex a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out.........
2759. kentron ken'-tron from kenteo
(to prick); a point ("centre"), i.e. a sting (figuratively, poison) or goad (figuratively, divine impulse):--prick, sting

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced/enuxen<3572> His side,.............

3572. nusso noos'-so apparently a primary word; to prick ("nudge"):--pierce.

So going by that, both the Jewish Rulers and the Roman soldiers who speared Jesus will also see Jesus on the clouds of heaven since: "shall be seeing Him every eye,..........
All the tribes of the Earth not the land. I doubt a Roman soldier who pieced Jesus was still bumming around Jerusalem in 70 AD
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
And why would only the Tribes of the land mourn him?
Both the Romans and the Jews saw the wrath and vengeance upon 70ad Jerusalem......
Luke 21:22
For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
All the tribes of the Earth not the land. I doubt a Roman soldier who pieced Jesus was still bumming around Jerusalem in 70 AD
"bumming around"...nice ^_^
Coincidentally, it was a Roman centurion that acknowledged Jesus as "Son of God" at the crucifixion.

Mat 27:
41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders said,
42 “He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him.
43 “He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.' ”
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God!

John 11:48
"If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him,
and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation."

Revelation 6:6
And I hear as a sound in midst of the four living ones, saying: "choinex of grain a Denarius and three choinex of barleys a Denarius , and the olive-oil/elaion <1637> and the wine/oinon <3631> no you should be injuring".

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

====================================
About 40 yrs later, the Romans sieged Jerusalem and the Priests and their Temple.............

I wonder how may of those Priests and descendants of them were around in the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem........

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD


While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers,.........The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness.
Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts..............

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ..........................

The old and the young, the common people and the priests
, those who surrendered and those who resisted, were equally involved in this horrible and indiscriminate carnage. Meanwhile the Temple continued burning, until at length, vast as was its size,...........

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken wallshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOQFdDwa6s&t=1s; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that, "as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death. .........
===================
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
And why would only the Tribes of the land mourn him?
Both the Romans and the Jews saw the wrath and vengeance upon 70ad Jerusalem....
All the tribes of the Earth not the land. I doubt a Roman soldier who pieced Jesus was still bumming around Jerusalem in 70 AD
That is where Futurists do err.

There is both Land and Sea.

If Jesus would have meant the whole global world, He would have used the Greek word G2889, but instead, the Greek word G1093 is used concerning 70AD Judea/Jerusalem.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon


1093. ge contracted from a primary word;
soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):--country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

That aside, let's look at the word G2875 used in Reve 1:7.

Matthew 26:63-64 "..ye shall be seeing the Son of Man coming on clouds of heaven..."

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He doth come with the clouds, and see Him shall every eye, even those who did pierce Him,
and wail<2875> because of Him shall all the Tribes of the land<1093>. Yes! Amen!
=======================
2875. kopto a primary verb;
to "chop"; specially, to beat the breast in grief:--cut down, lament, mourn, (be-)wail. Compare the base of 5114.
G2875 κόπτω (koptō), occurs 10 times in 8 verses

Mat 11:17
“and saying: ‘We played the flute for you, And you did not dance;
We mourned to you, And you did not lament.’
Mat 21:8
And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road.
Mat 24:30
“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mar 11:8
And many spread their clothes on the road, and others cut down leafy branches from the trees and spread them on the road.

Luk 8:52
Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping.”
Luk 23:27
And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him.

Rev 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Behold! It is used in conjunction with the great City of 1st century 70ad Jerusalem! Amen!

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19


Revelation 18:9

“The kings of the land who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with Her will weep and lament<2875> over Her, when they see the smoke of Her burning,
===============================
Matthew 24:30 | Study Archive




Matthew 24:30

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Thomas Newton (1754)
"Our Saviour proceedeth in the same figurative style, ver. 30 - ' And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.'

The plain meaning of it is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will be led from thence to acknowledge Christ and the Christian religion. In the ancient prophets, God is frequently described as coming in the 'clouds' upon any remarkable interposition and manifestation of his power; and the same description is here applied to Christ.

The destruction of Jerusalem will be as ample a manifestation of Christ's power and glory as if he was himself to come visibly in the clouds of heaven."
(ibid., p. 408-409)
 
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BABerean2

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But the rapture is when Jesus comes as a thief! It can happen any time!


A description of the gathering of the Church is found at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, and the timing is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.




Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


.
 
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Berean Tim

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That is where Futurists do err.

There is both Land and Sea.

If Jesus would have meant the whole global world, He would have used the Greek word G2889, but instead, the Greek word G1093 is used.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon


1093. ge contracted from a primary word;
soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):--country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

That aside, let's look at the word G2875 used in Reve 1:7.

Matthew 26:63-64 "..ye shall be seeing the Son of Man coming on clouds of heaven..."

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He doth come with the clouds, and see Him shall every eye, even those who did pierce Him,
and wail<2875> because of Him shall all the Tribes of the land<1093>. Yes! Amen!
=======================
2875. kopto a primary verb;
to "chop"; specially, to beat the breast in grief:--cut down, lament, mourn, (be-)wail. Compare the base of 5114.
G2875 κόπτω (koptō), occurs 10 times in 8 verses

Mat 11:17
“and saying: ‘We played the flute for you, And you did not dance;
We mourned to you, And you did not lament.’
Mat 21:8
And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road.
Mat 24:30
“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mar 11:8
And many spread their clothes on the road, and others cut down leafy branches from the trees and spread them on the road.

Luk 8:52
Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping.”
Luk 23:27
And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him.

Rev 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Behold! It is used in conjunction with the great City of 1st century 70ad Jerusalem! Amen!

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19


Revelation 18:9

“The kings of the land who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with Her will weep and lament<2875> over Her, when they see the smoke of Her burning,
===============================
Matthew 24:30 | Study Archive




Matthew 24:30

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Thomas Newton (1754)
"Our Saviour proceedeth in the same figurative style, ver. 30 - ' And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.'

The plain meaning of it is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will be led from thence to acknowledge Christ and the Christian religion. In the ancient prophets, God is frequently described as coming in the 'clouds' upon any remarkable interposition and manifestation of his power; and the same description is here applied to Christ.

The destruction of Jerusalem will be as ample a manifestation of Christ's power and glory as if he was himself to come visibly in the clouds of heaven."
(ibid., p. 408-409)
Strong's Concordance

gé: the earth, land

Original Word: γῆ, γῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration:
Phonetic Spelling: (ghay)
Definition: the earth, land
Usage: the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.

HELPS Word-studies

1093 gḗproperly, the physical earth; (figuratively) the "arena" we live in which operates in space and time which God uses to prepare us for eternity.

The physical earth (1093 /gḗ)is the temporary, probationary place to live out moral preferences "through the body," i.e. as free moral agents (cf. 2 Cor 5:1-10). In this way, God makes an eternal record of everything we do on the earth. Through faith, each scene of life becomes equally, eternally significant (cf. Mt 13:31,32,17:20; cf. also Lk 16:10; Lk 17:6; 2 Pet 1:1).

[The OT Hebrew term, 776 /asitía ("earth"), also refers to the physical earth as "God's arena" – "the physical theater" in which our eternal destiny freely plays out.]
1093 means physical earth - All translations I look at translate Matthew 24:30 (earth )

2889 means world Kosmos

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
HELPS Word-studies
2889 kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

[The English term "cosmetic" is derived from 2889 /kósmos, i.e. the order("ensemble") used of treating the face as a whole.]

 
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