Why does hell exist?
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That's what I'm saying. The hell that is thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:14 is different in nature and character. For hell cannot be destroyed by the power of hell, but rather by the power of heaven.
It's not me who's doing it. Compare:
Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river [...] Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing (Ez 47:12)
On each side of the river stood the tree of life, each bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations (Rev 22:2)
Coincidink? I think not.
Near the end of Rev we find "No longer will there be any curse." (Rev 22:3)
Yes, there's still a fleshpot outside the City, but one by one they're repenting and taking a lamb bloodbath before coming into the City.
Israel inherits and the foreigners who join in. (Ez 47:21-23)
That's not fully revealed in the OT, that's why we're Christians, because God now has graced us with revelation of the mysteries.
Ez 47, like so much of the OT, is types and shadows of things to come, as we discover in Revelation. Prophecy is pattern as much as prediction.
I'm glad you're as happy as I was to find this great foreshadowing.
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- Aug 21, 2003
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Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical quality and cannot literally be thrown anywhere. "Hades" if the grave, which are empty holes, cannot be thrown anywhere. If hell refers to the place of punishment it can be thrown into the LoF. But neither death nor hell are living therefore cannot die.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
There is a scriptural answer, which does not mix literal and figurative in the same verse. There is a death and hell that are living beings which can be thrown and can die.Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
I refer to these two as the angel of death and the demon of hell. They can be thrown into the LoF and can die and their power to kill ended.Where is any scripture which states or implies that those outside the new Jerusalem "one by one they're repenting and taking a lamb bloodbath before coming into the City?"
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Only those who do His commandments have the right to enter the city. The dogs, sorcerers etc. outside do not do His commandments so do not have the right to enter the city.Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
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Yes, there's no literal lake of fire, it's a metaphor for God's presence in abundant grace, truth and power.
Yes the spirits of death and despair are dealt with.
We've been over this. The gates of the City are ALWAYS OPEN. The conditions of entry require purification before admission. The spirit and the bride invite and encourage with the free gift. And, enfin, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all. Amen.
Add it up sir. It's gonna get very lonely for the last sorcerer's apprentice.
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- Aug 21, 2003
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The usual heterodox cop-out. When scripture as written contradicts ones false teaching, blow it off as "SPAM-Fig," symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative anything but literal.
And when that happens people can make scripture say almost anything they want it to.
The standard rule is, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
The scripture says "death and hell." Another instance of making scripture say what you want it to.
Wrong. Taking bits and pieces to make it say what you want it to.
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Please show me scripture after these 3 vss. which says, "The spirit and the bride invite and encourage with the free gift." Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Or do we just throw scripture around willy-nilly and make them say anything we want them to?
It will be a lot worse than that for people who live like the devil in this life and expect the spirit and bride to save them after death.
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You just denied death in v.20:9 was literal. You can't have it both ways.
Ok so have it your way, death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. We're back where we started. The lake of fire represents God's power that overcomes the spiritual enemies. You're twisting and turning like a rattler on dexedrine.
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. (22:17)
It's like pulling teeth.
The tribulation occurs earlier. Once death and hell are vanquished it's all about salvation and restoration. Purification can feel like hell to those who insist on having it some other way.
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Rev 22 there is the present state, not the future state where the wicked can repent and gain admittance to the city.
Recall the parable of the 10 virgins who were locked out. After the door is shut there can be no entry for those who were outside, same with Noah's ark, God shut and sealed the door of the ark.
Matthew 25 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins
1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom [a]is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
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Possibly or not. Could be both.
Rev 21:25 - The gates of the City are always open.
The parable refers to the wedding in particular, those of us who avoid the GWTJ and second death.
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After the bridegroom Christ comes, He takes His people into the wedding feast and the doors are shut.
Noah's flood swept away anyone who was not in the ark, and they are gone, from off the face of the earth, gone to hell as they were all of them very wickedly corrupted.
A similar destruction of the wicked occurs at His return, when He comes in that day.
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
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Tyler52
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Hell is a meaningless word, it can be used to describe Gahanna, Sheol, or Hades/lower Sheol. Since translations like KJV just translate them all into hell, you can say that hell will be thrown into hell and still be right in line with these translations of scriptures, on top of this hell can be used to described any of these places thanks to bad translations
Then why is the lake of fire the second death
Are you saying that Satan will be saved?
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- Aug 21, 2003
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Please pay attention, I explained why death in vs. 20:9 is not literal. There is a maxim which guides scripture interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
Death is the moment in time end of life. It has no physical properties, it cannot literally be thrown anywhere. Death is not a living thing, it cannot die.
And as I explained before there is a death and hell which are living beings which can be literally thrown somewhere and can die.
Yes it is, you seem to ignore anything which does not fit your agenda.
Lovely pipe dreams with no scriptural foundation.
When the spirit and the bride say come, vs. 17, do you suppose that they didn't know, or forgot, what the spirit said in vss, 22:11, 14 and 15?
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
.....The dead, those who die in their sins, cannot do God's commandments, they do not have, and cannot acquire, the right to enter the city. Read Matthew 25:46. No second chances there.Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
.....That is the fallacy of out-of-context proof texts, they ignore the rest of scripture.
It does not make sense that the spirit says "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still" and " without are dogs, and sorcerers,...," and a few verses later he is inviting them in.
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The word hell shouldn't be used in the Bible at all. It's loaded with so much rubbish that it bears no resemblance to any of the concepts it's translated to mean in scripture.
But if, as many like to say, hell is some kind of 'eternal separation' from God, then no, the lake of fire is the opposite. I invite you to do some berean sleuthing to locate the source of the fire in the lake. You'll find it comes straight from the very throne of God! It is divine essence, theion means sulphur, a purifying agent like salt. And Jesus tells us everyone is salted with fire and salt is good. (Mk 9:49-50)
And the destruction of death and hades in the second death is also the death of sin in the holy fire. Meaning the sinner is regenerated and made anew, baptised with fire and spirit, as in 'die to self live to Christ'. See also the well-known sayings 'dead to Christ' and 'dead in one's sins'. Jesus overcame the power of death on the cross. This is the save treatment for the remnant.
Sounds paradoxical, but these are metaphors used throughout scripture, and in particular in apocalyptic books. If you read Revelation with the idea that the HS is taking the 'sci-fi' genre of the day and subverting it, I think you'll find some powerful insights. Retributive language for restorative purposes.
There will no longer be a satan. Only those renewed and restored in Christ.
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No you said these were the horsemen of the apocalypse. That just kicks the can down the road.
Well, I'm not making delinquent interpretations to avoid the bleeding obvious.
If they wash their robes, they have life in Christ. That's purification. That's why the nations get into the City in v.21:24-26, and the healing leaves of the tree v.22:2. It makes no sense to permit nations (full of all kinds of blasphemers) entry and then 'close the gates' to others. The gates are never shut. The invitation remains.
This is how God wants POWs treated:
And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master.
(2 Kings 6:21-22)
It makes total sense. Making a clear demarcation, emphasising the entry conditions, and giving encouragement: no entry for the wicked, but you're more than welcome if you get cleaned up in Christ.
Just good old-fashioned Christian charity.
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You can't even read and quote my posts correctly. And you are no better at scripture which I quoted.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.[/quote]
And I said there are two living beings who can be thrown some into the LoF and can die and their power to kill ended. I refer to them as the angel of death and the demon of hell, they be thrown into the LoF and can die.
Unlike physical death, the point in time end of life, which has no physical property and cannot be literally thrown anywhere and cannot die.
And "hell" if it refers to the grave which are empty holes cannot be thrown anywhere and cannot die or the place of punishment which could be thrown but is not a living being and cannot die, sound familiar?
And I said there are two living beings who can be thrown some into the LoF and can die and their power to kill ended. I refer to them as the angel of death and the demon of hell, they be thrown into the LoF and can die.
Unlike physical death, the point in time end of life, which has no physical property and cannot be literally thrown anywhere and cannot die.
And "hell" if it refers to the grave which are empty holes cannot be thrown anywhere and cannot die or the place of punishment which could be thrown but is not a living being and cannot die, sound familiar?
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<SM>This is how God wants POWs treated:
And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master.
(2 Kings 6:21-22)...
Just good old-fashioned Christian charity.<SM>
The usual out-of-context proof text.
Joshua 10:16 But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon
Joshua 10:24
(24) And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Joshua 10:26-27
(26) And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
(27) And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day.
Just good old-fashioned Christian charity.Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon
Joshua 10:24
(24) And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Joshua 10:26-27
(26) And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
(27) And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day.
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What did I misunderstand?
That's a wildly speculative interpretation which smacks of a desperate attempt to avoid the obvious.
Death, meaning carnal-mindedness/ dead in sins (Eph 2:1 etc) is destroyed, so that only death to self, alive to Christ (Rom 6:11) (the second death) needs to occur to consummate the renewal in the spirit. Hence the purificatory function of the lake, heaven descends to earth, the need to wash robes (carnality) in Lamb's blood (life of Christ). It's all about destroying the flesh and transforming to spirit in Christ.
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