Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

Status
Not open for further replies.

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree, yes you are making a disgrace of Christianity and a mockery of the new covenant.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)


The man in the video below had the courage to speak the truth to those who were lost.
Some people talk about their love for modern Orthodox Jews, while others show their love by sharing the Gospel with them.



Forbidden Chapter in the Tanakh (Jewish Evangelism)

.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,656
7,872
63
Martinez
✟905,271.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.



Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
(Has the "great city" fallen in the past?)

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

.
I do not think that geopolitical Jerusalem today has any prophetic fulfillment. The Harlot is the harlot of Babylon which is Jerusalem at that time before its destruction in 70AD.

Isaiah 1:21
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I do not think that geopolitical Jerusalem today has any prophetic fulfillment. The Harlot is the harlot of Babylon which is Jerusalem at that time before its destruction in 70AD.
Isaiah 1:21
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
:oldthumbsup: :amen:
The Jewish historian Josephus agrees with you.........

REVELATION 9:6 "MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM" 70AD SIEGE FAMINE?

Luke 21:
11“And great earthquakes and various places famines and pestilences; and besides fearful sights also shall be great signs from heaven.
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Revelation 6:6 shows the Roman currency, Denarius and also denotes the famine during the 70ad siege of Jerusalem by Titus.

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
======================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.

The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror.

At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes. Indeed, humanity at once shudders and sickens at the narration, nor can any one of the least sensibility reflect upon the pitiable condition to which the female part of the inhabitants of Jerusalem must at this time have been reduced, without experiencing the tenderest emotions of sympathy, or refrain from tears while he reads our SAVIOUR'S pathetic address to the women who " bewailed him" as he was led to Calvary, wherein he evidently refers to these very calamities : "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but for yourselves and fur your children ; for, behold, the days are coming in which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck." Luke xxiii. 29.
=========================================
JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
Josephus really intrigues me.
There is a question now whether or not he had access to a copy of Revelation based on some of his writings concerning 70ad Jerusalem?
I think this would make for a fascinating discussion, whether one is preterist, futurist, amill, etc.

First off, like the Apostle Paul, he is said to have been both a Jew and Pharisee, according to this source.
If so, wouldn't he have had some contact with some of the Apostles or Disciples of Christ at one time?
Discuss..........

Flavius Josephus | Jewish priest, scholar, and historian

Flavius Josephus, original name Joseph Ben Matthias, (born ad 37/38, Jerusalem—died ad 100, Rome), Jewish priest, scholar, and historian who wrote valuable works on the Jewish revolt of 66–70 and on earlier Jewish history. His major books are History of the Jewish War (75–79), The Antiquities of the Jews (93), and Against Apion.

Flavius Josephus was born of an aristocratic priestly family in Jerusalem. According to his own account, he was a precocious youth who by the age of 14 was consulted by high priests in matters of Jewish law. At age 16 he undertook a three-year sojourn in the wilderness with the hermit Bannus, a member of one of the ascetic Jewish sects that flourished in Judaea around the time of Christ.

Returning to Jerusalem, he joined the Pharisees—a fact of crucial importance in understanding his later collaboration with the Romans. The Pharisees, despite the unflattering portrayal of them in the New Testament, were for the most part intensely religious Jews and adhered to a strict though nonliteral observance of the Torah.

History of the Destruction of Jerusalem & Josephan Studies Archives

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted


Was Flavius Josephus familiar with the Apocalypse of John?

John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)

Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5) John's Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)


Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)

John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)

Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3).....................
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
:oldthumbsup: :amen:
The Jewish historian Josephus agrees with you.........

REVELATION 9:6 "MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM" 70AD SIEGE FAMINE?

Luke 21:
11“And great earthquakes and various places famines and pestilences; and besides fearful sights also shall be great signs from heaven.
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Revelation 6:6 shows the Roman currency, Denarius and also denotes the famine during the 70ad siege of Jerusalem by Titus.

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
======================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.

The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror.

At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes. Indeed, humanity at once shudders and sickens at the narration, nor can any one of the least sensibility reflect upon the pitiable condition to which the female part of the inhabitants of Jerusalem must at this time have been reduced, without experiencing the tenderest emotions of sympathy, or refrain from tears while he reads our SAVIOUR'S pathetic address to the women who " bewailed him" as he was led to Calvary, wherein he evidently refers to these very calamities : "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but for yourselves and fur your children ; for, behold, the days are coming in which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck." Luke xxiii. 29.
=========================================
JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

How could Josephus be a judge of modern times?

Josephus said the city was a harlot during 70 AD.

He said nothing about modern day Jerusalem.

You are trying to make your form of Preterism work...


.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Maria Billingsley said:
I do not think that geopolitical Jerusalem today has any prophetic fulfillment. The Harlot is the harlot of Babylon which is Jerusalem at that time before its destruction in 70AD.
Isaiah 1:21
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
LittleLambofJesus said:
:oldthumbsup: :amen:
The Jewish historian Josephus agrees with you.........
REVELATION 9:6 "MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM" 70AD SIEGE FAMINE?
How could Josephus be a judge of modern times?Josephus said the city was a harlot during 70 AD.
He said nothing about modern day Jerusalem.
You are trying to make your form of Preterism work...
.
:)
And you are trying to make your form of Futurism work ;)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Maria Billingsley said:
I do not think that geopolitical Jerusalem today has any prophetic fulfillment. The Harlot is the harlot of Babylon which is Jerusalem at that time before its destruction in 70AD.
Isaiah 1:21
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
LittleLambofJesus said:
:oldthumbsup: :amen:
The Jewish historian Josephus agrees with you.........
REVELATION 9:6 "MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM" 70AD SIEGE FAMINE?
BABerean2 said:
How could Josephus be a judge of modern times?Josephus said the city was a harlot during 70 AD.
He said nothing about modern day Jerusalem.You are trying to make your form of Preterism work...
Revelation from a Preterist view:

Jerusalem as Babylon Study Archive


Its slow rise to mainstream attention completed, Preterism was embraced by Sproul and a host of others, despite the impossibility of compressing all of apocalyptic prophecies to be fulfilled from 33 AD to 70 AD. Preterism was no longer an obscured opinion limited to a few. The acceptance by respected theologians gave Preterism the modern credibility it needed to be considered plausible, and the impetus it needed to be spread throughout the world. - Bridgeport (TX) Church of Pentecost

Jerusalem as Babylon
Ancient Jerusalem = Mystery Babylon
Vessels of WrathRomans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called
====================
MAIN COLLECTION
Typically Organized by Author’s First Name

Adam Maarschalk: Josephus and the Book of Revelation – Nine Case Studies (2016)

As we look at these parallels, consider what they mean for the popular idea that John wrote Revelation around 95 AD. Some of the parallels are so striking that a person would basically have to conclude that John borrowed from the earlier writings of Josephus, and then used the language of Josephus to prophesy of a much later war
Josephus and the Book of Revelation – Nine Case Studies

By Adam Maarschalk
2016

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus
Administrative | Factional | Military | Theological | Topographical


In John Wesley’s commentary on Matthew 24 (1755), he said, “Josephus’s History of the Jewish War is the best commentary on this chapter…” I believe this is also true for the book of Revelation.

The preterist movement is known for believing that the book of Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This belief is backed by both external and internal evidence, that is, testimonies in early church history as well as (more importantly) evidence within the text.

The Wars of the Jews” by Josephus is another major source of evidence that Revelation was written before 70 AD. This work by Josephus was published in 75 AD, less than 15 years after Revelation was written. It contains seven books, most of which cover the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 AD.

In this message I want to present nine case studies showing parallels between the book of Revelation and “The Wars of the Jews.” As we look at these parallels, consider what they mean for the popular idea that John wrote Revelation around 95 AD. Some of the parallels are so striking that a person would basically have to conclude that John borrowed from the earlier writings of Josephus, and then used the language of Josephus to prophesy of a much later war. We know, however, that John wrote his prophecies first, and Josephus wrote his works a decade or so later. John wrote before the Jewish-Roman War and Josephus wrote after the war.

In this presentation I’ve included the month and year of each event that Josephus referred to. This is based on dates that Josephus himself cited, as well as a helpful table in Ed Stevens’ book, “The Final Decade before the End” (p. 242) showing the modern equivalents of the months cited by Josephus. In the chart below, I’ve color-coded the case studies that feature the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments:

Case Study Reference by John Reference by Josephus Approximate Date(s)
#1 Revelation 6:4
(2nd Seal) Civil War: Wars 4.3.2
Sword: Wars 2.18.3, 4.4.3,
4.5.3, 5.8.1, and 5.10.1. August 66 AD;
Feb./ March 68 AD;
May 70 AD
#2 Revelation 6:15-16
(6th Seal) Wars 6.7.3 August 70 AD
#3 Revelation 8:7-9
(1st and 2nd Trumpets) Wars 3.4.1
Wars 3.9.3
Wars 3.10.9 March – August 67 AD
#4 Revelation 9:13-16
(6th Trumpet) Wars 4.4.2 February 68 AD
#5 Revelation 11:7-13
(6th Trumpet) Wars 4.4.5
Wars 4.5.1-2 February 68 AD
#6 Revelation 16:3-6
(2nd and 3rd Bowls) Wars 4.7.5-6 April-May 68 AD
#7 Revelation 16:19
(7th Bowl) Cities of the nations fell:
Wars 3 (Galilee)
Wars 4.7 (Perea)
Wars 4.9 (Idumea & Judea)
Jerusalem divided:
Wars 5.1.1 and 5.1.4 (67 AD)
(Spring 68 AD)
Mid-68 AD – 69 AD

December 69 AD

#8 Revelation 16:21
(7th Bowl) Wars 5.6.3 May 70 AD
#9 Revelation 17:12-17 Wars 2.20.3-4 Dec. 66 AD – Aug. 70 AD
 
  • Informative
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Commentary 2:

Alexander Gibb: Jerusalem was Babylon the Great, the Mystery is History (2015)

Alexander Gibb: Jerusalem was Babylon the Great, the Mystery is History (2015)

Identifying the City by its Apparel
  • Rev 18:16 KJV And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
What great city was clothed in fine linen? There was only one and it was Jerusalem.

Identifying the City by its Final and Tragic Demise
  • Rev 11:18 KJV And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
  • Rev 14:7-8 KJV Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
  • Joh 5:25 YLT `Verily, verily, I say to you–There cometh an hour, and it now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard shall live;
  • 1Jo 2:18 KJV Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
John’s affirmation was consistent in his Gospel, Epistle, and the Revelation. Christ’s return, the resurrection, and the judgement, were about to be consummated at the imminent destruction of Jerusalem.

  • Luk 21:20 KJV And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
‘when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies’ Luke explained the meaning and timing of ‘the abomination of desolation’.

  • Mat 24:15-16 KJV When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
‘when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation’ Jesus warned the disciples to flee Jerusalem. The remnant left the city before it finally fell, and history records they fled to Pella in AD 70.

  • Zec 13:9 KJV And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
  • Rev 18:8 KJV Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
  • Rev 18:10 KJV Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
  • Rev 18:19 KJV And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
  • Zec 14:1-2 KJV Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Here we read a solemn yet vivid account of the wrath poured out upon Jerusalem at the hands of the Roman army.

The fulfillment of Zechariah’s prophecy was on the ‘Day of the Lord’ in AD 70.

Revelation 18:8 ‘Utterly burned with fire – Of what city is this spoken? Rome pagan has never been thus treated; Alaric and Totilas burnt only some parts with fire. Rome papal has not been thus treated; but this is true of Jerusalem, and yet Jerusalem is not generally thought to be intended.’

— Adam Clarke, Commentary on the Bible


The New Jerusalem Tapestry of the Apocalypse (14th century) | Source
Identifying the City by its Antitype the New Jerusalem
John described the most beautiful city in the closing chapters of the Revelation, the New Jerusalem; earthly Jerusalem was it’s foreshadow.

  • Rev 21:1-2 KJV And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
  • Rev 21:18 KJV And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
A Quote from Albert Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

Revelation 21:2 ‘…On the phrase “new Jerusalem,” see the Gal_4:26 note, and Heb_12:22 note. Here it refers to the residence of the redeemed, the heavenly world, of which Jerusalem was the type and symbol. It is here represented as “coming down from God out of heaven.” This, of course, does not mean that this great city was “literally” to descend upon the earth, and to occupy any one part of the renovated world; but it is a symbolical or figurative representation, designed to show that the abode of the righteous will be splendid and glorious. The idea of a city literally descending from heaven, and being set upon the earth with such proportions – three hundred and seventy miles high Rev_21:16, made of gold, and with single pearls for gates, and single gems for the foundations – is absurd. No man can suppose that this is literally true, and hence this must be regarded as a figurative or emblematic description. It is a representation of the heavenly state under the image of a beautiful city, of which Jerusalem was, in many respects, a natural and striking emblem.’

Conclusion
The destruction of earthly Jerusalem was an outward manifestation of spiritual change; the introduction of spiritual heavenly Jerusalem.

  • Joh 4:23-24 KJV But the hour cometh, and now is,when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
In New Jerusalem, true worship is not restricted to any one place or nation.

  • Rev 1:1 KJV The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
The Revelation was a vision of ‘things which must shortly come to pass’ and subsequently did.

The annals of history reveal the identity of Mystery Babylon!

Can we now identify the city called ‘Mystery, Babylon the Great’ in the Revelation? I am convinced we have done so, and it is none other than Jerusalem.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And you are trying to make your form of Futurism work

Those who are ignoring the current efforts to establish a global government may have to live under its future rule.

The undeniable proof is found below.


.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Maria Billingsley said:
I do not think that geopolitical Jerusalem today has any prophetic fulfillment. The Harlot is the harlot of Babylon which is Jerusalem at that time before its destruction in 70AD.
Isaiah 1:21
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

LittleLambofJesus said:
:oldthumbsup: :amen:
The Jewish historian Josephus agrees with you.........
REVELATION 9:6 "MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM" 70AD SIEGE FAMINE?
BABerean2 said:
How could Josephus be a judge of modern times?Josephus said the city was a harlot during 70 AD.
He said nothing about modern day Jerusalem.You are trying to make your form of Preterism work...
LittleLambofJesus said:
And you are trying to make your form of Futurism work
Those who are ignoring the current efforts to establish a global government may have to live under its future rule.
Ahhh...like the Futurist NWO conspiracy nonsense........

I rather like this person's view of the "NWO" :)

Preterist Heresy: 70AD Brought in the New World Order
70AD Brought in the New World Order


Stephen Douglas "As long as the Old Covenant was kicking, as long as the Temple was standing and the Jewish cultus was active, the old system was functioning mockingly alongside the New Covenant built upon the shed blood of Christ; that’s what AD 70 was about - filling up the new wineskins and effectively bursting the old wineskins with the new wine.
The “New World Order” of Christianity was the direct result of the fulfillment and abolition of the Old one."

=======================
Same thing this commentator said concerning 70ad......Awesome!

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived


==============================================
Please visit my 10 Kings coming against 1st century Jerusalem thread.........

Acts 1:6 Restore Kingdom to Israel/10 KINGS One Mind Reve 17

Zechariah 8:23
Thus said Yahweh of Hosts: In those days take hold do ten men of all languages of the nations, Yea, they have taken hold on the skirt<3671> of a man, a Jew/Judean/Y@huwdiy<3064>, saying:
'We shall go with Thee, for we hear Elohim with Thee{ye}'!

Acts 1:6 The-ones indeed then coming together, asked Him saying, `Lord!, if in to-the time, this, you are restoring the Kingdom to the Israel?'
Revelation 17:
12 And the ten horns which you saw, ten kings are, who any a-Kingdom/basileian <932> not-yet received/elabon <2983> (5627), but authority/exousian <1849> as kings, one hour they are receiving/lambanousin <2983> with the wild beast,
13 These one mind/gnwmhn <1106> are having, and the power and authority of them to the wild beast they are giving.
16 And the ten horns which you perceived, and the wild beast, these shall be hating the prostitute, and having been desolated, they shall be making her, and naked. And the fleshes of her they shall be eating, and her they shall be burning down in fire.
17 For the God gives into the hearts of them to do the mind of Him, and to do/make one mind, and to give the Kingdom of them to the wild-beast until shall be being finished the Words of the God.

Revelation 18:17 For in an hour such great riches are made desolate.' Every shipmaster, and everyone who sails anywhere, and mariners, and as many as gain their living by sea, stood far away, 18and cried out as they looked at the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What is like the great city?' 19They cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her great wealth!' For in one hour is she made desolate.
==============================================
NWO threads on CF

https://www.google.com/search?q=one...Oq0KHebSAk8QrQIoBDAAegQIBRAN&biw=1366&bih=626

'New World Order' Conspiracy
How many Christians actually believe in the New World Order conspiracy?

Does this actually have a basis part within Christian belief?

What is the perspective, from those who don't, about it?
Should Christians believe in New World Order One World Government Illuminati Conspira

Should Christians believe in New World Order One World Government Illuminati Conspiracy Theories or not ? What Im trying to ask is should we say that the Anti Christ is already here or will he just appear I always hear Consiracy people say that the Anti Christ is already in control of the World my point is that I believe in the Second Coming of Christ I believe that Israel being a nation is a sign of the End Times but in my view the Anti Christ and or the Real Christ have not appeared yet ?

Bush is a phony Christian

Resistance Manifesto | November 28, 2006
John Conner

Many Christians live in ignorance, thinking it will protect them from the evil in this world. While believing and proclaiming that Jesus will return soon, they seem blind to the fact that the Antichrist isn't just going to pop up out of nowhere and then magically take control of the government and the people. Many Christians fail to see that for generations, the infrastructure and foundation was being built to stage the grand finale.

Does the Bible prophesy a one-world government and a one-world currency in the end times?

The Bible does not use the phrase “one-world government” or “one-world currency” in referring to the end times. It does, however, provide ample evidence to enable us to draw the conclusion that both will exist under the rule of the Antichrist in the last days.

In his apocalyptic vision in the Book of Revelation, the Apostle John sees the “beast,” also called the Antichrist, rising out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 13:1). Combining this vision with Daniel’s similar one (Daniel 7:16-24), we can conclude that some sort of world system will be inaugurated by the beast, the most powerful “horn,” who will defeat the other nine and will begin to wage war against Christians. The ten-nation confederacy is also seen in Daniel’s image of the statue in Daniel 2:41-42, where he pictures the final world government consisting of ten entities represented by the ten toes of the statue. Whoever the ten are and however they come to power, Scripture is clear that the beast will either destroy them or reduce their power to nothing more than figureheads. In the end, they will do his bidding.

John goes on to describe the ruler of this vast empire as having power and great authority, given to him by Satan himself (Revelation 13:2), being followed by and receiving worship from “all the world” (13:3-4), and having authority over “every tribe, people, language and nation” (13:7). From this description, it is logical to assume that this person is the leader of a one-world government which is recognized as sovereign over all other governments. It’s hard to imagine how such diverse systems of government as are in power today would willingly subjugate themselves to a single ruler, and there are many theories on the subject. A logical conclusion is that the disasters and plagues described in Revelation as the seal and trumpet judgments (chapters 6-11) will be so devastating and create such a monumental global crisis that people will embrace anything and anyone who promises to give them relief.

Once entrenched in power, the beast (Antichrist) and the power behind him (Satan) will move to establish absolute control over all peoples of the earth to accomplish their true end, the worship Satan has been seeking ever since being thrown out of heaven (Isaiah 14:12-14). One way they will accomplish this is by controlling all commerce, and this is where the idea of a one-world currency comes in. Revelation 13:16-17 describes some sort of satanic mark which will be required in order to buy and sell. This means anyone who refuses the mark will be unable to buy food, clothing or other necessities of life. No doubt the vast majority of people in the world will succumb to the mark simply to survive. Again, verse 16 makes it clear that this will be a universal system of control where everyone, rich and poor, great and small, will bear the mark on their hand or forehead. There is a great deal of speculation as to how exactly this mark will be affixed, but the technologies that are available right now could accomplish it very easily.

Those who are left behind after the Rapture of the Church will be faced with an excruciating choice—accept the mark of the beast in order to survive or face starvation and horrific persecution by the Antichrist and his followers. But those who come to Christ during this time, those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 13:8), will choose to endure, even to martyrdom.

Recommended Resource: End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware

From: www.gotquestions.org


Quasar92
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married

maria billingsly said:
I do not think that geopolitical Jerusalem today has any prophetic fulfillment. The Harlot is the harlot of Babylon which is Jerusalem at that time before its destruction in 70AD.
Isaiah 1:21
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

LittleLambofJesus said:


BABerean said:
How could Josephus be a judge of modern times?Josephus said the city was a harlot during 70 AD.
He said nothing about modern day Jerusalem.You are trying to make your form of Preterism work...

You're right.....Josephus was NOT speaking of our modern times - and that is just what Maria and LLoJ are saying.......that the prophecies had to do with Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (which is what Josephus wrote about as he was an "eye witness" who was also educated in ancient Judaism).
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Those who are ignoring the current efforts to establish a global government may have to live under its future rule.
BABerean.....do you believe it's up to US (humans) to worry about this? Do you not see in Scripture that God has managed to be in control for a few years (regarding prophecies, specifically)? Did He get thrown off by the reckless and evil behavior of men? Did His timetable need to be adjusted each time for the ill deeds of humanity? Or have things happened (on time) the way He said they would?

From what LLoJ already posted (below) - ignoring what HAS been fulfilled will cause a person to miss the encouragement that comes from seeing what God HAS accomplished (in spite of evil people).

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived.​
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi I liken prophecy to a jigsaw puzzle where you line up what looks like the related pieces and try to fit them together. One thing I noticed about when the kingdom comes to earth. It is a day of distress and Israel is saved out of it. ZEch 14 Jerusalem is overrun when the LORD is king over the earth and he fights that day. In Dan 7 the pompous one is persecuting and prevailing when one like the son of man described like the glorified Christ comes and he is given the kingdom and he destroys the pompous one and he is given to the flame. This is exactly what happens to the beast who also is given to the flame with the false prophet and he is destroyed at the coming of the Lord too and he is gathered against Jerusalem when this event happens. In 70AD Jerusalem was destroyed and there was no miraculous salvation of the coming of the LORD.
The man of sin in 2 Thess is revealed when he claims to be God in the temple. Hosea 3 links the return of the daily sacrifices with the return of the kingdom after many days without them.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days. So when you ask about his city in Rev I say it is future and it will be related to the time that the sacrifice is renewed. The clues about this city are all the merchants will weep because the one who made them rich will no longer be buying their goods. So present day who are the merchants who are rich and who made them rich? Dubai, Hong Kong, Bejieng Taiwan, Seoul many others are made with the trade deficit with the USA> Who has exported their sorceries and has had all the nations commit fornication with her. Psalm 2 speaks of the nations imagining vain thing and plotting to cast off the bonds of the LORD and His annointed. It is here where the funding and sourcing of the NWO and execution of this strategy would also point back at the USA> If these times are coming and this is the generation perhaps it is NY or all the USA.
For those who doubt the futurist point of view the fact is Israel is moving rapidly towards all the nations or the many entering into a peace pact that may provide the return of the temple and the sacrifices. At any rate they have prepared all the articles to reinstiture the daily sacrifices just as Hosea said to watch for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
BABerean.....do you believe it's up to US (humans) to worry about this? Do you not see in Scripture that God has managed to be in control for a few years (regarding prophecies, specifically)? Did He get thrown off by the reckless and evil behavior of men? Did His timetable need to be adjusted each time for the ill deeds of humanity? Or have things happened (on time) the way He said they would?

From what LLoJ already posted (below) - ignoring what HAS been fulfilled will cause a person to miss the encouragement that comes from seeing what God HAS accomplished (in spite of evil people).

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived.​

I have a copy of Holford's book, but I also see that most modern Christians deny the current efforts to bring about a one world government.

The watchman on the wall is commanded to blow the trumpet.
Others may decide to put on their headphones and turn up the volume, or stick their head in the sand.

We are in a battle for the truth.

I got a copy of Holford's book from the man in the video below.
He knows what happened during 70 AD, and he knows the plan of modern globalists.


.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
BABerean.....do you believe it's up to US (humans) to worry about this? Do you not see in Scripture that God has managed to be in control for a few years (regarding prophecies, specifically)? Did He get thrown off by the reckless and evil behavior of men? Did His timetable need to be adjusted each time for the ill deeds of humanity? Or have things happened (on time) the way He said they would?

From what LLoJ already posted (below) - ignoring what HAS been fulfilled will cause a person to miss the encouragement that comes from seeing what God HAS accomplished (in spite of evil people).

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived.​
Hello mkgal.
Well said. At least BAB views Jerusalem in Revelation......that is a start :ebil:

According to CF, I can view the 1st 19 Chapters of Revelation as fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem as "a parousia/judgement" of Jesus and still be considered an orthodox Preterist......:)

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
===============================
Josephus and The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology
are must reads for any serious Partial Preterist/Amill and also Jews, Muslims and other non-Christians coming to Christ.....


The Second Coming of Christ Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism



The "Second Coming" of Jesus
Associated with the End of Jerusalem in A.D.70, the End of Life, or the End of the World

THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS: PHYSICAL OR SPIRITUAL?
End of Jerusalem in A.D.70 | End of the Individual at Death | End of the World's History

"the Fall of Jerusalem was, in the fullest sense, the Second Advent of the Son of Man which was primarily contemplated by the earliest voices of prophecy" - F.W. Farrar, Chaplain to Queen Victoria, 1871-1876, Archdeacon of Westminster, Dean of Canterbury


SIEGE OF JERUSALEM - 1380-1390

All that remains, after this central moment in the text, is to "cleanse" the Temple and the old Jewish cultus once and for all: that is, the Temple must be destroyed. This destruction, too, was viewed as a fulfillment of Christ's prophecy.
As Christ had said that Jerusalem's enemies would "not leave in thee a stone upon a stone" (Luke 19:44; 21:6), so will Jerusalem's conquerors utterly destroy the Temple. In taking over command of the army from his father,127 Titus swears an oath to do just this; Vespasian replies (lines 1015-20):

P.S. Desprez (1854)
"The Lord came, as he said, to destroy Jerusalem, and to close the dispensation." (Preface, p. vi).

"NO scriptural statement is capable of more decided proof than that the coming of Christ is the destruction of Jerusalem, and the close of the Jewish dispensation." (p.9)

“To us individually, as to the Church in all subsequent ages, the coming of the Lord is an event yet future. To us individually he has not yet come; His coming will be to us “the hour of death and the day of judgment.” We then, equally with the disciples, may use the prayer, “Thy kingdom come,” for we may pray for the full and glorious consummation of that kingdom, the first advent of which was the object of their supplications.

We, too, may pray “that at His second coming to judge the world, we may be found an acceptable people in His sight,” for we, equally with them, must meet a Savior Judge, before whose bar a strict account must be rendered. This divine book, like the rest of Scripture, contains “manna for all hearts and for all times,” and its lessons of warning and encouragement are not only applicable to those who were pronounced blessed if they should hear and read the words of this prophecy, but to hearers and readers of all lands and of all ages.

=========================
70AD Brought in the New World Order

Stephen Douglas "As long as the Old Covenant was kicking, as long as the Temple was standing and the Jewish cultus was active, the old system was functioning mockingly alongside the New Covenant built upon the shed blood of Christ; that’s what AD 70 was about - filling up the new wineskins and effectively bursting the old wineskins with the new wine.
The “New World Order” of Christianity was the direct result of the fulfillment and abolition of the Old one."
=======================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
65
usa
✟221,465.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
H
:oldthumbsup: :amen:
The Jewish historian Josephus agrees with you.........

REVELATION 9:6 "MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM" 70AD SIEGE FAMINE?

Luke 21:
11“And great earthquakes and various places famines and pestilences; and besides fearful sights also shall be great signs from heaven.
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Revelation 6:6 shows the Roman currency, Denarius and also denotes the famine during the 70ad siege of Jerusalem by Titus.

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
======================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.

The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror.

At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes. Indeed, humanity at once shudders and sickens at the narration, nor can any one of the least sensibility reflect upon the pitiable condition to which the female part of the inhabitants of Jerusalem must at this time have been reduced, without experiencing the tenderest emotions of sympathy, or refrain from tears while he reads our SAVIOUR'S pathetic address to the women who " bewailed him" as he was led to Calvary, wherein he evidently refers to these very calamities : "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but for yourselves and fur your children ; for, behold, the days are coming in which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck." Luke xxiii. 29.
=========================================
JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

Hi I happened to come across this debate on the date of when Revelation was written. This is Germain to the topic as the book is a prophecy of thing to come and if written after 70AD the preterist view is toast. This is a long debate but the level of evidence is well organized and well presented.

Debate on the Date of the Book of Revelation - The Pre-Trib Research Center
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.