When all doesn't mean all

DamianWarS · Sep 13, 2019

it seems just like English the Biblical word "all" (pas) is contextually based and sometimes all doesn't actually mean the radical all in the bible. for example:

Mark 1:5
The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

Are we to accept that the radical all people of Jerusalem went out to him? and then subsequently were baptized?

John 8:2
At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.

Greek word used: πᾶς/pas G3956

so at dawn literally all the people with not a single one left out gathered around Christ? Radical has no limits remember so the radical all is all the people that existed at that time, not just the people in the courts

Acts 22:15
You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Greek word used: πάντας/pantas G3956

surely those present weren't the literal witness to all people? What happened 5 minitues after this was spoken and 10 people died across Rome? did they too receive this witness? were they include in the all?

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Greek word used: πάντων/pantōn G3956

everyone... some translations say all but it's the same Greek word (G3956). So literally everyone hated them? really? Even those who didn't know them or have ever heard about them? Even babies? Did they spit at them as they walked on by?

John 3:26
They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

did the entire known world gather to Christ at this time or could this word be contextually based and is more of an exclusive all then an inclusive all.

Matthew 21:26
But if we say, ‘Of human origin’—we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

if they radically all held that John was a prophet then how/why did he get killed? Wait, I'm still thinking too inside the box. There is no box with the radical all so if it was the radical all then we are talking about all who existed.

2 Corinthians 3:2
You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone.

Greek word used: πάντων/pantōn G3956

that letter must have been passed around for the radical all to have read it... even the illiterate and the babies.

Romans 12:17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

Greek word used: πάντων/pantōn G3956

we are indeed to be careful but does this all mean the radical all? or is it contextually bound?

Romans 16:19
Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

Greek word used: πάντας/pantas G3956

who heard? all of Rome apparently (and that's still not the radical all). perhaps this is contextually based and "all" has a limit.

Acts 21:28
shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.”

Greek word used: πάντας/pantas G3956

could it be that maybe not everyone everywhere was taught these things? perhaps there is a measure of hyperbole here?

2 Timothy 3:9
But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Greek word used: πᾶσιν/pasin G3956

hmm... to who? the absolute radical all? or might this all be a tad bid more narrow than this?

2 Timothy 4:16
At my first defense, no one came to my support, but everyone deserted me. May it not be held against them.

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

all is all right. (but perhaps this has a measure of contextual limit to it)

3 John 1:12
Demetrius is well spoken of by everyone—and even by the truth itself. We also speak well of him, and you know that our testimony is true.

Greek word used: πάντων/pantōn G3956

so everyone, the radical all, speaks of Demetrius well? I think maybe this could have some boundaries put on the all.

Acts 4:21
After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened.

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

no doubt this was an impacting event, but the radical all? that's a stretch, at the very least let's give a boundary of the those who heard about it rather than the radical all.

Acts 2:45
They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Greek word used: πᾶσιν/pasin G3956

don't let the translation fool you. this is the same "all" as the rest. Certainly a remarkable time but are we really to believe the radical all that were in need receive a portion? Perhaps it has some geographical boundaries to it.

John 11:48
If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

what's ironic is this actually happened and Rome became a Christian state. but are we to think this is the radical all or at the very least maybe there is some limit with this, perhaps those outside Rome were not included in this all to start.

So all apparently doesn't always mean all. but is this any surprise? we use the word in English all the time (but not the radical all the time) and carry varying contextual levels of how radical it is. The Bible shows similar use, there is indeed an inclusive all but there is also an exclusive all used as well and among these, there is also hyperbole. So all can mean the radical all, but not always... it's best to look at the context.

note: I show the Greek not to confuse but to show that although there are different inflections employed it's all the same Greek word which is strongs 3956.

topher694 · Sep 13, 2019

Me thinks I might know where your inspiration came from.

(but clearly not ALL of your inspiration, that would be silly)

mothcorrupteth · Sep 13, 2019

A problem, however, is that many people make the logical fallacy of:

"1. Sometimes, "all" does not mean every single one in existence.
"2. The Bible says God will have all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4).
"3. Therefore, God only wills some men to be saved."

This would be like saying,

"1. Not all dogs are black.
"2. You have a dog.
"3. Therefore, your dog must be white."

Strangely enough, such people don't seem too keen on following the same logic with Rom. 3:23.

Certainly, I recognize that some people insert a step between 2 and 3: "Well, the context suggests..." But usually the context is just as ambiguous as the term originally in question. And there are a lot of people who just argue ex sua propria cathedra that verses like 1Tim. 2:4 are a more metaphorical all. Either way, a prominent question on my mind is: Are they willing to subject their opinions to corpus-linguistic analysis?

DamianWarS · Sep 13, 2019

mothcorrupteth said:
A problem, however, is that many people make the logical fallacy of:

"1. Sometimes, "all" does not mean every single one in existence.
"2. The Bible says God will have all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4).
"3. Therefore, God only wills some men to be saved."

This would be like saying,

"1. Not all dogs are black.
"2. You have a dog.
"3. Therefore, your dog must be white."

Strangely enough, such people don't seem too keen on following the same logic with Rom. 3:23.

Certainly, I recognize that some people insert a step between 2 and 3: "Well, the context suggests..." But usually the context is just as ambiguous as the term originally in question. And there are a lot of people who just argue ex sua propria cathedra that verses like 1Tim. 2:4 are a more metaphorical all. Either way, a prominent question on my mind is: Are they willing to subject their opinions to corpus-linguistic analysis?

There are some radical "all" in scripture and I don't mean to create loop holes. For example "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". This is indeed the radical all.

My point is that just like in English we use "all" in different ways and this is no big surprise to anyone. We need to be careful to look at the context to determine its meaning rather than putting out blanket statement that all of all must mean all. The latter thinking can manifest bad theology because we refuse to consider that "all" may be contextual.

There are some tricky verses that warrant deeper study and sometimes it might not be clear but this isn't a reason to be careless and sometimes we have to let some unknowns occupy our theology.

mothcorrupteth · Sep 13, 2019

DamianWarS said:
We need to be careful to look at the context to determine its meaning rather than putting out blanket statement that all of all must mean all.

But what do you do when the context is ambiguous?

There are some tricky verses that warrant deeper study and sometimes it might not be clear but this isn't a reason to be careless and sometimes we have to let some unknowns occupy our theology.

We only know what any of these Greek words means because of linguistic tradition. Why should be hesitant to trust that their interpretation in individual contexts has also been preserved in Tradition?

Andrewn · Sep 13, 2019

mothcorrupteth said:
Are they willing to subject their opinions to corpus-linguistic analysis?

My question is unrelated but has been on my mind for a while. Why do a lot of EO have scary avatars? Who is your avatar, BTW.

mothcorrupteth · Sep 13, 2019

Andrewn said:
My question is unrelated but has been on my mind for a while. Why do a lot of EO have scary avatars? Who is your avatar, BTW.

I am three-quarters German-American. The Mensch in the photo is Otto Fürst von Bismarck, mastermind of the unification of Germany into an empire under the leadership of Prussia rather than of the more traditional Austria. As a conservative, he favored the preservation of the aristocracy over the liberal bourgeoisie, but he was a ruthless pragmatist who exploited liberal nationalism to achieve his own political goals for Prussia--Realpolitik. His biggest mistake, however, was betting all his winnings on the smart heir, who died an untimely death, leaving the stupid heir (Wilhelm II) in charge of the most scientifically and second-most industrially advanced nation in the world.

Andrewn · Sep 13, 2019

mothcorrupteth said:
I am three-quarters German-American. The Mensch in the photo is Otto Fürst von Bismarck, mastermind of the unification of Germany into an empire under the leadership of Prussia rather than of the more traditional Austria.

Thank you very much for info. I remember studying a little bit about him in history. I'll do more reading.

FineLinen · Sep 13, 2019

The New Radical Unbelief Bible

1 Cor. 15:22

“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

Rev. 5:13

“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

Col. 1:18-20

“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

Acts 3:20,21

“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

1 Cor. 15:28

“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”

1 Cor. 15:25,27

“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

Romans 11:32

“For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”

Eph. 4:10

“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

John 5:28

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

1 Timothy 2:4

“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:6

“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

Cor. 5:15

“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

Gal. 3:20

“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

Heb. 1:2

“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

2 Cor. 5:14

“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

Heb.8:11

“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

“For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

Heb. 12:23

“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

James 2:10

“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

Romans 3:22,23

“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

John 17:2

“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Romans 9:5

“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

2 Peter 3:9

“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please Remember…

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some

topher694 · Sep 13, 2019

FineLinen said:
The New Radical Unbelief Bible

1 Cor. 15:22

“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

Rev. 5:13

“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

Col. 1:18-20

“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

Acts 3:20,21

“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

1 Cor. 15:28

“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”

1 Cor. 15:25,27

“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

Romans 11:32

“For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”

Eph. 4:10

“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

John 5:28

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

1 Timothy 2:4

“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:6

“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

Cor. 5:15

“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

Gal. 3:20

“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

Heb. 1:2

“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

2 Cor. 5:14

“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

Heb.8:11

“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

“For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

Heb. 12:23

“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

James 2:10

“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

Romans 3:22,23

“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

John 17:2

“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Romans 9:5

“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

2 Peter 3:9

“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please Remember…

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some

Oooooooooooh

prodromos · Sep 13, 2019

DamianWarS said:
it seems just like English the Biblical word "all" (pas) is contextually based and sometimes all doesn't actually mean the radical all in the bible. for example:

Mark 1:5
The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

Are we to accept that the radical all people of Jerusalem went out to him? and then subsequently were baptized?

John 8:2
At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.

Greek word used: πᾶς/pas G3956

so at dawn literally all the people with not a single one left out gathered around Christ? Radical has no limits remember so the radical all is all the people that existed at that time, not just the people in the courts

Acts 22:15
You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Greek word used: πάντας/pantas G3956

surely those present weren't the literal witness to all people? What happened 5 minitues after this was spoken and 10 people died across Rome? did they too receive this witness? were they include in the all?

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Greek word used: πάντων/pantōn G3956

everyone... some translations say all but it's the same Greek word (G3956). So literally everyone hated them? really? Even those who didn't know them or have ever heard about them? Even babies? Did they spit at them as they walked on by?

John 3:26
They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

did the entire known world gather to Christ at this time or could this word be contextually based and is more of an exclusive all then an inclusive all.

Matthew 21:26
But if we say, ‘Of human origin’—we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

if they radically all held that John was a prophet then how/why did he get killed? Wait, I'm still thinking too inside the box. There is no box with the radical all so if it was the radical all then we are talking about all who existed.

2 Corinthians 3:2
You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone.

Greek word used: πάντων/pantōn G3956

that letter must have been passed around for the radical all to have read it... even the illiterate and the babies.

Romans 12:17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

Greek word used: πάντων/pantōn G3956

we are indeed to be careful but does this all mean the radical all? or is it contextually bound?

Romans 16:19
Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

Greek word used: πάντας/pantas G3956

who heard? all of Rome apparently (and that's still not the radical all). perhaps this is contextually based and "all" has a limit.

Acts 21:28
shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.”

Greek word used: πάντας/pantas G3956

could it be that maybe not everyone everywhere was taught these things? perhaps there is a measure of hyperbole here?

2 Timothy 3:9
But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Greek word used: πᾶσιν/pasin G3956

hmm... to who? the absolute radical all? or might this all be a tad bid more narrow than this?

2 Timothy 4:16
At my first defense, no one came to my support, but everyone deserted me. May it not be held against them.

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

all is all right. (but perhaps this has a measure of contextual limit to it)

3 John 1:12
Demetrius is well spoken of by everyone—and even by the truth itself. We also speak well of him, and you know that our testimony is true.

Greek word used: πάντων/pantōn G3956

so everyone, the radical all, speaks of Demetrius well? I think maybe this could have some boundaries put on the all.

Acts 4:21
After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened.

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

no doubt this was an impacting event, but the radical all? that's a stretch, at the very least let's give a boundary of the those who heard about it rather than the radical all.

Acts 2:45
They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Greek word used: πᾶσιν/pasin G3956

don't let the translation fool you. this is the same "all" as the rest. Certainly a remarkable time but are we really to believe the radical all that were in need receive a portion? Perhaps it has some geographical boundaries to it.

John 11:48
If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

Greek word used: πάντες/pantes G3956

what's ironic is this actually happened and Rome became a Christian state. but are we to think this is the radical all or at the very least maybe there is some limit with this, perhaps those outside Rome were not included in this all to start.

So all apparently doesn't always mean all. but is this any surprise? we use the word in English all the time (but not the radical all the time) and carry varying contextual levels of how radical it is. The Bible shows similar use, there is indeed an inclusive all but there is also an exclusive all used as well and among these, there is also hyperbole. So all can mean the radical all, but not always... it's best to look at the context.

note: I show the Greek not to confuse but to show that although there are different inflections employed it's all the same Greek word which is strongs 3956.

It is the figure of speech known as "synecdoche", which people use all the time without realising.

Pavel Mosko · Sep 13, 2019

DamianWarS said:
it seems just like English the Biblical word "all" (pas) is contextually based and sometimes all doesn't actually mean the radical all in the bible. for example:

This seems like a problem largely of certain Fundamentalists that study the Bible but don't really study the nature and context of the various books of the Bible. The idea that are idioms, poetic devices, and general colloquialism in the Bible is nothing new to many of us.

DamianWarS · Sep 13, 2019

mothcorrupteth said:
But what do you do when the context is ambiguous?

certainly not put out blanket statements. why not be honest and say "I don't know"

mothcorrupteth said:
We only know what any of these Greek words means because of linguistic tradition. Why should be hesitant to trust that their interpretation in individual contexts has also been preserved in Tradition?

what if tradition is corrupted should affect everyone the same way regardless of what position you take. so either we have no idea what the word means because we can't trust anything or we move forward with the information we know.

mothcorrupteth · Sep 13, 2019

DamianWarS said:
certainly not put out blanket statements. why not be honest and say "I don't know"

Because in many cases, we do know from the Tradition of the Church.

what if tradition is corrupted should affect everyone the same way regardless of what position you take. so either we have no idea what the word means because we can't trust anything or we move forward with the information we know.

That doesn't sound like the Jesus who promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church. That sounds more like Neil deGrasse Tyson.

DamianWarS · Sep 13, 2019

mothcorrupteth said:
Because in many cases, we do know from the Tradition of the Church.

That doesn't sound like the Jesus who promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church. That sounds more like Neil deGrasse Tyson.

I'm not arguing against church tradition and it can (and should) be used as a mechanism that feeds into responsible interpretation. I'll be honest however that Orthodox don't seem interested in interpretation they are only interested in what is Orthodox.

For example: The Orthodox position is that 318 people attended the council of Nicene. That number probably is a lot less and closer to under 250-300. but 318 is important because it legitimizes the council as it is the same number of servants Abraham took with him to rescue Lot and in Greek it also is a number of the cross and Christ put together (the Epistle of Barnabas even says the 318 servants foreshadows Christ). so regardless what the actual number was 318 is a better number and so it is the Orthodox number. This is a very common Eastern way of thinking by taking the best version, not the actual version.

Truth here is goal-oriented rather than driven by textual/historical criticism which is not wrong but can come to seemingly different conclusions. It's not even goal-oriented anymore because it's all figured out so you just have to look at the Orthodox position and that's what it is. So when I hear "the Orthodox position says..." it means I must put away competing thoughts on it regardless what it points to simply because they are not Orthodox it then is the wrong focus.

I'm not looking for the Orthodox position here per se (or arguing against it) I'm looking for responsible methods of biblical interpretation. (so maybe check your Orthodox hat at the door because those two don't always line up)

mothcorrupteth · Sep 13, 2019

DamianWarS said:
I'm not arguing against church tradition and it can (and should) be used as a mechanism that feeds into responsible interpretation. I'll be honest however that Orthodox don't seem interested in interpretation they are only interested in what is Orthodox.

For example: The Orthodox position is that 318 people attended the council of Nicene. That number probably is a lot less and closer to under 250-300. but 318 is important because it legitimizes the council as it is the same number of servants Abraham took with him to rescue Lot and in Greek it also is a number of the cross and Christ put together (the Epistle of Barnabas even says the 318 servants foreshadows Christ). so regardless what the actual number was 318 is a better number and so it is the Orthodox number. This is a very common Eastern way of thinking by taking the best version, not the actual version.

Truth here is goal-oriented rather than driven by textual/historical criticism which is not wrong but can come to seemingly different conclusions. It's not even goal-oriented anymore because it's all figured out so you just have to look at the Orthodox position and that's what it is. So when I hear "the Orthodox position says..." it means I must put away competing thoughts on it regardless what it points to simply because they are not Orthodox it then is the wrong focus.

I'm not looking for the Orthodox position here per se (or arguing against it) I'm looking for responsible methods of biblical interpretation. (so maybe check your Orthodox hat at the door because those two don't always line up)

*shrugs* Everybody has a capital-T Tradition. We and the Catholics are just explicit about ours. You can draw an infinite number of line variations through a finite collection of points. Drawing the line anyway may be good enough for empirical science, but when it comes to questions of the soul I prefer to have the raw equation. That's what Tradition is. Without it, two verses could be a sine wave or they could be a negatively sloped line.

DamianWarS · Sep 13, 2019

mothcorrupteth said:
*shrugs* Everybody has a capital-T Tradition. We and the Catholics are just explicit about ours. You can draw an infinite number of line variations through a finite collection of points. Drawing the line anyway may be good enough for empirical science, but when it comes to questions of the soul I prefer to have the raw equation. That's what Tradition is. Without it, two verses could be a sine wave or they could be a negatively sloped line.

If you mean bias is spelt with tradition then you're right. But it shouldn't stop us asking questions. Im also not negating tradition but it is important to understand the place where these traditions are framed.

It is possible 2 things may be true at the same time that the greater doctrine of the church may be x in line with the Orthodox position but y verse may still say something else.

Andrewn · Sep 14, 2019

1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If the discussion is specifically about the above verse, I don't think there is disagreement. Orthodox tradition denies apokatastasis.

God's perfect will, as expressed in the Sermon on the Mount for example, is rarely manifested in the world. The Holy Spirit proclaims God's perfect will in order for us to work toward achieving it and pray that "His will be done on earth at it is in heavens." (and this is what the beginning of this passage in Timothy tells us to do.)

Is this not the case?

When all doesn't mean all

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