liberal approaches to homosexuality and transgender

redleghunter

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Galatians 3:28

Matthew 22:30
Neither of which addresses marriage or gender.

People marry here on Earth. Jesus taught what God’s ordered design for marriage was from the beginning. He did so within the context of divorce which God hates. He was correcting what was man-made with what God ordered at Creation.

So this is not a fuzzy case. Jesus gave us a clear teaching.
 
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bekkilyn

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Jesus directly and clearly teaching on marriage and gender?

Well ok.

What Jesus is actually doing here is protecting those who cannot legally protect and/or support themselves when they are abandoned by their husbands. He's not making some grandiose statement concerning marriage or gender.
 
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redleghunter

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What Jesus is actually doing here is protecting those who cannot legally protect and/or support themselves when they are abandoned by their husbands. He's not making some grandiose statement concerning marriage or gender.
Where exactly is Jesus saying what you say He is saying?
 
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bekkilyn

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Neither of which addresses marriage or gender.

People marry here on Earth. Jesus taught what God’s ordered design for marriage was from the beginning. He did so within the context of divorce which God hates. He was correcting what was man-made with what God ordered at Creation.

So this is not a fuzzy case. Jesus gave us a clear teaching.

Except that we really have no "earthly" idea as to what counts as a marriage in our time since our marriages do not in any way resemble any marriages found in scripture, and we still haven't clearly defined what makes a person "male" or "female" in the first place.

Usually when someone says that Jesus (or Paul) or "the bible" is clearly saying, teaching, etc., it really means they haven't asked enough questions and are just basing the argument on assumptions that haven't yet been broken down in any meaningful way.
 
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bekkilyn

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Where exactly is Jesus saying what you say He is saying?

Because Jesus lived in a culture where a husband could legally divorce his wife for any reason whatsoever (or even for no reason), and said wives would have no means of support unless some other man would take her (and then that would be considered as adultery) or she would likely be forced into some sort of prostitution. (And wives had NO legal rights to divorce their husbands for any reason, so it was completely one sided.) A man divorcing his wife is basically a death sentence on her or worse.
 
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redleghunter

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Except that we really have no "earthly" idea as to what counts as a marriage in our time since our marriages do not in any way resemble any marriages found in scripture, and we still haven't clearly defined what makes a person "male" or "female" in the first place.

All you have to do is read what Jesus said. There was no ambiguity. There was no but. There was no question left hanging.

What you seem to be saying is that based on our complex 21st century society where everyone is right in their own mind, that we should filter the Words of Christ through our relativistic lens.

Again the only one in Holy Scriptures who did this was Satan.

Just because our current society is terribly confused does not mean it is right to filter Jesus and His Apostles through that lens thus adding ambiguity to something which is crystal clear and concrete.

Usually when someone says that Jesus (or Paul) or "the bible" is clearly saying, teaching, etc., it really means they haven't asked enough questions and are just basing the argument on assumptions that haven't yet been broken down in any meaningful way.

First I made no assumptions. I “let” Jesus do the talking.

Jesus did respond in a meaningful way. He obliterated the human understanding and clearly stated God’s design from the Beginning.

As you use “meaningful way” it seems that we add ambiguity to include things not discussed in the text.

As you are using “meaningful way” one can fly a Swedenborgian 747 through.
 
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redleghunter

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Because Jesus lived in a culture where a husband could legally divorce his wife for any reason whatsoever (or even for no reason), and said wives would have no means of support unless some other man would take her (and then that would be considered as adultery) or she would likely be forced into some sort of prostitution. (And wives had NO legal rights to divorce their husbands for any reason, so it was completely one sided.) A man divorcing his wife is basically a death sentence on her or worse.
And how did Jesus reply to the situation?

He defined what a marriage actually consisted of, one man and one woman and that these complimentary sexes became one flesh. And such a union was not to be separated.

I truly think someone has exaggerated the divorce rate to you in the time of Christ. It was not widespread. The Jews asked Jesus the question. There were not a large multitude of homeless divorced women. If s woman was put out her immediate family would take her in.

So this too is a stretch avoiding what Jesus is actually saying.

A death sentence? Are you sure you did not get this impression from the Handmaiden’s Tale?
 
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bekkilyn

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All you have to do is read what Jesus said. There was no ambiguity. There was no but. There was no question left hanging.

There are plenty of questions left hanging.

What you seem to be saying is that based on our complex 21st century society where everyone is right in their own mind, that we should filter the Words of Christ through our relativistic lens.

We all read scripture through a lens.

Again the only one in Holy Scriptures who did this was Satan.

Nope, Satan intentionally misused scripture for his own particular purpose.

Just because our current society is terribly confused does not mean it is right to filter Jesus and His Apostles through that lens thus adding ambiguity to something which is crystal clear and concrete.

It only seems crystal clear and concrete through the particular lens you have decided to use. It is perfectly within our right to question every assumption we've ever made concerning scripture and view it through multiple lenses.

First I made no assumptions. I “let” Jesus do the talking.

Except for in the way you "let" Jesus do the talking, he apparently tells 100 different people 100 different things.

Jesus did respond in a meaningful way. He obliterated the human understanding and clearly stated God’s design from the Beginning.

To what purpose?

As you use “meaningful way” it seems that we add ambiguity to include things not discussed in the text.

The text could easily be compared to an onion.

As you are using “meaningful way” one can fly a Swedenborgian 747 through.

At least it's not crashing into the side of a mountain.
 
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redleghunter

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We all read scripture through a lens.
The Apostles did not teach this way.
Nope, Satan intentionally misused scripture for his own particular purpose.
Satan added ambiguity and confusion.

It only seems crystal clear and concrete through the particular lens you have decided to use. It is perfectly within our right to question every assumption we've ever made concerning scripture and view it through multiple lenses.
No that’s not how Jesus nor His apostles taught.

Except for in the way you "let" Jesus do the talking, he apparently tells 100 different people 100 different things.

So you think if I posted the below to 100 people I would get 100 different answers?

“Have you not read that He who created themfrom the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

To what purpose?
I explained it. Jesus taught what God designed for marriage.
The text could easily be compared to an onion.
Chopped up with a Ginsu knife. Yeah I get that and see it a lot. But again that is not how Jesus taught nor His apostles.

It’s not like Jesus is telling a parable when taking on the Jews here:

“Have you not read that He who created themfrom the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
 
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A.ModerateOne

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It's helpful to know that the actual scripture does not refer to a vague, uncertain thing like our modern word 'gay' or even our modern word 'homosexual' in the literal text (in literal translations I've seen), but instead to a precise action, intercourse sodomy, only, and not other things which people like to add in today, against scripture (adding to scripture is prohibited in scripture). You you can learn this by reading the scripture carefully. Here's the ESV (an excellent and accurate) translation:
Leviticus 18 ESV
verse 22 is the one so many people don't realize the wording of, which isn't 'gay' or even 'homosexual' accurately, but instead intercourse sodomy alone, leaving all the other various gay interactions completely ok (unless we try to add to scripture new things not in it).

If anyone is unsure of the verb meaning (intercourse) in verse 22, then examine verse 23 to ascertain the accurate meaning of the verb.

Notice how this real scriptural wording isn't so comfortable for all traditional man/woman married couples, who have in reality some of them done this very thing themselves....

From this accuracy, we can see the Bible says nothing against gay marriage in Lev 22, the chapter on sexual sins.

.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Lev 18:22, KJV)

"These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses." (Lev 26:46, KJV)

"These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai." (Lev 27:34, KJV)

God's law, the law of the Son of God exists from Genesis onward, never abolished; Jesus Christ abolished the law of Moses, nailing it to his cross. Christians are under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. Those of us who are Gentiles were NEVER under the law of Moses.

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." (Lev 19:18, KJV)

The underlined is for New Covenant believers, NOT because it is in Leviticus; but it is quoted exactly, word for word for New Covenant believers 6 times.

Bible scholars have known for centuries that Lev. 18:22 is referring to cult prostitutes, the ritual prostitution of idolaters. The Hebrew chuqqah, which the KJV renders "ordinances" in 18:3; and to ebah, which the KJV renders "abomination" in 18:22 are both words used with religious ritual.

In the Tyndale Old Testament Commentary series, Leviticus, by Professor R. K. Harrison, the commentary on v22 reads:

"The regulations of Leviticus condemn certain aberrations found among the Egyptians and Canaanites, who went far towards deifying sexual activity, and assigned the title 'holy ones' to cultic prostitutes. Sacro-homosexual practices and female prostitution within the context of the cultus was probably well established throughout the ancient Near East long before the Israelites occupied Canaan. Homosexuality of a non-religious variety is poorly documented in Mesopotamian texts..." page 191

On the last page of the commentary, page 252 he states: "For a person to think of himself or herself as a 'Christian homosexual' or a 'Christian lesbian' is a complete contradiction in terms..."

He is obviously NOT a liberal, gay-friendly professor, promoting homosexuality.
 
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Halbhh

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"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Lev 18:22, KJV)

"These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses." (Lev 26:46, KJV)

"These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai." (Lev 27:34, KJV)

God's law, the law of the Son of God exists from Genesis onward, never abolished; Jesus Christ abolished the law of Moses, nailing it to his cross. Christians are under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. Those of us who are Gentiles were NEVER under the law of Moses.

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." (Lev 19:18, KJV)

The underlined is for New Covenant believers, NOT because it is in Leviticus; but it is quoted exactly, word for word for New Covenant believers 6 times.

Bible scholars have known for centuries that Lev. 18:22 is referring to cult prostitutes, the ritual prostitution of idolaters. The Hebrew chuqqah, which the KJV renders "ordinances" in 18:3; and to ebah, which the KJV renders "abomination" in 18:22 are both words used with religious ritual.

In the Tyndale Old Testament Commentary series, Leviticus, by Professor R. K. Harrison, the commentary on v22 reads:

"The regulations of Leviticus condemn certain aberrations found among the Egyptians and Canaanites, who went far towards deifying sexual activity, and assigned the title 'holy ones' to cultic prostitutes. Sacro-homosexual practices and female prostitution within the context of the cultus was probably well established throughout the ancient Near East long before the Israelites occupied Canaan. Homosexuality of a non-religious variety is poorly documented in Mesopotamian texts..." page 191

On the last page of the commentary, page 252 he states: "For a person to think of himself or herself as a 'Christian homosexual' or a 'Christian lesbian' is a complete contradiction in terms..."

He is obviously NOT a liberal, gay-friendly professor, promoting homosexuality.

Ellicott largely relies on reviewing verses from many instances in the scriptures on this:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(22) As with womankind.--This was the sin of Sodom (Genesis 19:5), whence it derived its name, and in spite of the penalty of death enacted by the Law against those who were found guilty of it (see Leviticus 20:13), the Israelites did not quite relinquish this abominable vice (Judges 19:22; 1Kings 14:24), to which the surrounding nations were addicted and which was so prevalent in the time of the Apostles (Romans 1:27; 1Corinthians 6:9; Galatians 5:19; 1Timothy 1:10). By the law of Christ those who are guilty of this sin are excluded from the kingdom of God (1Corinthians 6:9-10), whilst the laws of civilised Europe rightly inflict the severest penalties upon offenders of this kind.
Leviticus 18:22 You must not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination.
 
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Halbhh

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Ellicott seems to have left out Ezekiel 16:49.
It is the most complete answer, yes, about the sin of Sodom. Sodom wasn't destroyed for having gay people of course, which is only a temperament.

Sodom was not destroyed even for the actual and serious sin that "all of the men" were intending to rape the 2 visitors (Genesis chapter 19) -- a heinous crime they seemed perhaps to want to do routinely to visitors we might think. Not even that abomination of raping visitors. But instead Sodom and the other cities were destroyed for the totality of all of the major sins of Sodom, together, God Himself says to us:

49 “ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

As this is the direct word from God, then it's simply the absolute answer to why Sodom was destroyed, and any other answer that omits these reasons this is simply wrong we can all understand.
 
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redleghunter

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As this is the direct word from God, then it's simply the absolute answer to why Sodom was destroyed, and any other answer that omits these reasons this is simply wrong we can all understand.
We are to take the whole counsel of God into consideration. There's a reason the early church saw the sin of Sodom as sexual immorality. It's because the canonical book of Jude made it clear:

Jude 1: NASB

3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
 
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