Salvation Cannot be Lost

FreeGrace2 · Sep 13, 2019

jerry kelso said:
freegrace2,

1. I understand those scriptures but you didn’t get the immediate text right first.
A text without a context is just a pretext.

Thanks. I appreciate your concern.

It is improper hermeneutics to take scriptures from another passage outside of the immediate context.

Not if they are all talking about the topic. Which they were.

2. The immediate passage is about either being a Christian or not.

First, which "immediate passage" are you referring to, since I noted a number of passages.

Second, please show how the passage you are referring to is about what you claim.

It has nothing to do with personal lifestyle of a Christian being drunk or falling asleep and still be a Christian.

First, prove your claim.

You are coercing and contriving that passage.

So far, you are only giving opinion. Where is your evidence?

Romans 8 says the carnal mind is enmity with God and will result in death.

First, everyone will experience physical death. So what? Even the "spiritual mind will face physical death. So, obviously, the "death" here cannot be about physical death.

So then, what does it refer to? Loss (or death) of fellowship. The basic meaning of "death" is separation. Physical death is separation of soul and body - James 2:26. Spiritual death is separation of the person from God. We are all born that way, separated from God, which is why we need salvation. Once given eternal life, the believer shall never perish. John 10:28.

So, the only option left for what 'death' means here, and many other passages, is separation of the believer from fellowship with God. This is seen in the command to not grieve or quench the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19). Those believers who do these things are NOT in fellowship with the Lord.

Recall that believers are called (invited) into fellowship.

1 Cor 1:9 -
... God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship
with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. ...

1 Thess 2:12 - That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you into his kingdom ... and imploring you to live lives worthy of fellowship with God who is inviting you to

Many people are confused about fellowship vs salvation. They erroneously think they are synonymous. They are not.

Salvation is a permanent relationship, just as parent and child are a permanent relationship. Cannot be changed. Marriage is the same. In God's economy, marriage is a permanent relationship. Recall Jesus' words, "what God has joined together, let not man separate."

Fellowship, otoh, reflects the state of the relationship.

Consider a marriage where there is conflict, etc. The relationship is there, but there is no fellowship.

Or, consider parent and child. When there is conflict and rebellion on the part of the child, there is no fellowship between parent and child.

In the parable of the prodigal, the father described the loss of fellowship with his son as "death". Luke 15:24 - For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

He sure didn't die physically, and as a parable, Jesus wasn't referring to spiritual death.

So it was fellowship "death".

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Christ coming which continues with the contrast of the Day of the Lord is not talking about behavioral problems of a Christian.

You are free to your own opinions.

It is talking about being ready for the rapture.

Yes, it is. And the need to be ready; awake, alert. Not sleeping, drunk.

iow, we need to be in fellowship with the Lord.

Romans is specifically talking about daily living in the immediate passage. That doesn’t make it automatically so in another passage such as 1 Thessalonians 5.

Yes it does. Paul uses the SAME METAPHORS for lifestyle.

2. Paul said I die daily in 1 Corinthians 15. What do you think he meant. If you think he was referring to Romans 6 you would be wrong.

And I don't think he was referring to Romans 6. However, what translation are you using? v.31 doesn't say "I die daily", but rather, "I face death every day".

3. So the only thing you proved in the OP is that you took a majority of outside scriptures to prove your failed assessment of the immediate passage.

Oh, this is rich. Your opinions are getting the better of you.

All the passages use the metaphorical language of sleeping vs being alert for lifestyle.

But, please address 1 Thess 5:4-10 and explain exactly what Paul was trying to communicate. Like I did.

Or, just take my explanation of each verse and prove that it is about something else.

4. You are confusing carnal Christians in Corinthians withs the carnal mind of Romans.

Other than being different people, a carnal mind is a carnal mind. So what's your point?

Christ will judge all righteously for their works but if they are really trying to have a relationship with God, they will be saved and not be burned by fire 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.

This reveals that you didn't read that passage carefully at all.

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The red words refer to eternal rewards, received in heaven after this life.

The blue words refer to LOSS of eternal rewards.

The green words refer to the FACT that even though eternal rewards are lost, the person is STILL SAVED.

But, at the same time one cannot serve two masters at one time according to Romans 6.

Correct. We choice which one we will serve. But are you making the mistake that this is a one time choice? Hardly. It is moment by moment.

Meaning, a believer who is in fellowship has chosen to serve the Lord. But, when the believer gets out of fellowship, by either grieving or quenching the Spirit, they have chosen to serve sin.

These are two separate issues and God knows the heart.

Without a doubt.

5. Believers are not always obedient but that doesn’t mean it is their nature.

Believers have 2 natures. Their original human sinful nature, and their new, born again nature. Aren't you aware of that?

Jesus had 2 natures. One fully human, and one fully divine (Deity).

How do you explain Jesus' comment in Matt 24:36 regarding the Tribulation?
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

We don’t sin because of who we are in Christ.

Are you saying that those who are in Christ don't sin????

but if we do we have an advocate with the Father who is the proposition for our sins and nots ours only, but the sins of the whole world.

Sure. 1 John 2:2.

6. It is about what Christians ought to do and what they do is hear his voice and follow him. This doesn’t mean they can’t fall from Grace and apostasize.

Correct. But falling from grace and apostatizing doesn't result in loss of salvation.

7. The bottom line is you have the immediate context of 1 Thessalonians 5 wrong.

Then correct me. Take my analysis and show me the correct understanding.

It it talking about being a Christian or an unbeliever.

This is just opinion. Addresss EACH VERSE and explain how my take on it is wrong.

We are not to be slothful or like a drunkard in light of his coming.

Well, now you're beginning to see the light. It IS about lifestyle. Welcome aboard!

It is not about personal behavior in a Christian believer in that context. Jerry Kelso

Well, now you're just confused. Because of your immediately previous comment about "not to be slothful or like a drunkard". How is that NOT a lifestyle??

FreeGrace2 · Sep 13, 2019

I said:
"A believer is a child of God. How can disobedience change a child into an unchild??"

Phil W said:
Just because they "said" they believed does not make them children of God.

I never said anything about what people "say". Please start reading my posts before you keep making these kinds of errors. I am speaking about "believers". Not "sayers".

His seed cannot bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

The new nature cannot sin. Correct. But we still have our sinful nature, which you deny, but Paul made clear.

If men say they are children of God, but bring forth evil fruit, it shows they were never children of God.

Why do you believe the fantasy that children cannot disobey? Haven't you read Heb 12?

Real believers don't "go out of fellowship" with God.

You just don't know Scripture. 1 Cor 1:9 tells us that we are called (invited) INTO fellowship. But you don't know that.

And Paul ended 2 Cor this way:
14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

But you have no idea what that means.

Only the children of the devil do that. (1 John 3:10)

Since "fellowship" is the state of a relationship, your opinion about "children of the devil" is quite in error.

As the "believers" believe and obey the exhortations, sin identifies who is not a "real believer".

That's right; and because they are believers, they will remain in the Spirit till they are called Home.

You have it backwards. The Spirit remains IN the believer.

1 Cor 6:19 - Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom
you have from God? ... The Holy Spirit, whom you received from God, lives in you.

What did I "make up"?

The exact stuff I commented on.

It IS the only way believers can live.
It is the unbelievers who walk after the flesh instead of after the Spirit.

This is naivety. But since you deny that believers can sin, or that believers still have their sinful natures, you will never understand much of the NT.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 13, 2019

Phil W said:
If he hadn't the faith to end up in heaven he wouldn't have appeared to Jesus on the mount. (Matt 17)

You're trying to have it both ways. You have used Heb 3:19 to condemn believers who didn't enter the promised land because of their lack of trust in God as an example of loss of salvation, yet Moses met the SAME FATE but you struggle to excuse his lack of trust.

Yes, he WAS saved and went to heaven, which is PROVEN when Jesus was transfigured.

But, what you fail to grasp is that the entire first generation of the Exodus were also saved and still went to heaven, even though they didn't enter the promised land.

If you were consistent, both Moses and the rest of the first generation met the same fate. But you are not consistent.

He previously didn't have faith when he struck the rock at Maribah-Kadesh.
Had no faith, had faith later.

Didn't you read the actual account? After Moses told the crowd that they wouldn't enter the land, they all repented. And they showed faith after that.

But, being so inconsistent, you still separate the fates of the whole crowd and Moses.

Ezec 36:1 starts out with..."Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord:"
The rest of the chapter is a promise to Israel IF they will turn from iniquity and unto the Lord.
Sound familiar?[

Excuse me, but noting a new heart indicates a new birth.

No "rebirth" without obedience first.

Please provide a verse to support this opinion.

[/QUOTE]And I replied that it was a "picture" of heaven...a presage or "type".[/QUOTE]
And I showed how that opinion is totally incorrect. Remember that Moses DIDN'T enter the promised land. So how did he enter heaven, if the promised land is a presage of heaven?

Impossible to say till after the final judgement.

Unless they repented and placed their faith in the Messiah, NONE of them went to heaven.

Pretty much what Paul says in Romans 6:16..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

This proves that all believers face this choice of who to serve. This isn't a one-time choice, as it seems you believe. It's a daily choice.

I can't imagine any servants of sin going to heaven.

That's because you don't understand anything about God's grace. He has promised that those who have received eternal life shall never perish, while you believe that recipients that choose to serve sin WON'T get to heaven.

Your graceless opinion flies directly in the face of what Jesus said.

Like Paul, I also know that grace reigns through righteousness. (Rom 5:21)

Again, you don't understand grace, as your posts and opinions reveal.

jerry kelso · Sep 13, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Thanks. I appreciate your concern.

Not if they are all talking about the topic. Which they were.

First, which "immediate passage" are you referring to, since I noted a number of passages.

Second, please show how the passage you are referring to is about what you claim.

First, prove your claim.

So far, you are only giving opinion. Where is your evidence?

First, everyone will experience physical death. So what? Even the "spiritual mind will face physical death. So, obviously, the "death" here cannot be about physical death.

So then, what does it refer to? Loss (or death) of fellowship. The basic meaning of "death" is separation. Physical death is separation of soul and body - James 2:26. Spiritual death is separation of the person from God. We are all born that way, separated from God, which is why we need salvation. Once given eternal life, the believer shall never perish. John 10:28.

So, the only option left for what 'death' means here, and many other passages, is separation of the believer from fellowship with God. This is seen in the command to not grieve or quench the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19). Those believers who do these things are NOT in fellowship with the Lord.

Recall that believers are called (invited) into fellowship.

1 Cor 1:9 -
... God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship
with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. ...

1 Thess 2:12 - That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you into his kingdom ... and imploring you to live lives worthy of fellowship with God who is inviting you to

Many people are confused about fellowship vs salvation. They erroneously think they are synonymous. They are not.

Salvation is a permanent relationship, just as parent and child are a permanent relationship. Cannot be changed. Marriage is the same. In God's economy, marriage is a permanent relationship. Recall Jesus' words, "what God has joined together, let not man separate."

Fellowship, otoh, reflects the state of the relationship.

Consider a marriage where there is conflict, etc. The relationship is there, but there is no fellowship.

Or, consider parent and child. When there is conflict and rebellion on the part of the child, there is no fellowship between parent and child.

In the parable of the prodigal, the father described the loss of fellowship with his son as "death". Luke 15:24 - For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

He sure didn't die physically, and as a parable, Jesus wasn't referring to spiritual death.

So it was fellowship "death".

You are free to your own opinions.

Yes, it is. And the need to be ready; awake, alert. Not sleeping, drunk.

iow, we need to be in fellowship with the Lord.

Yes it does. Paul uses the SAME METAPHORS for lifestyle.

And I don't think he was referring to Romans 6. However, what translation are you using? v.31 doesn't say "I die daily", but rather, "I face death every day".

Oh, this is rich. Your opinions are getting the better of you.

All the passages use the metaphorical language of sleeping vs being alert for lifestyle.

But, please address 1 Thess 5:4-10 and explain exactly what Paul was trying to communicate. Like I did.

Or, just take my explanation of each verse and prove that it is about something else.

Other than being different people, a carnal mind is a carnal mind. So what's your point?

This reveals that you didn't read that passage carefully at all.

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The red words refer to eternal rewards, received in heaven after this life.

The blue words refer to LOSS of eternal rewards.

The green words refer to the FACT that even though eternal rewards are lost, the person is STILL SAVED.

Correct. We choice which one we will serve. But are you making the mistake that this is a one time choice? Hardly. It is moment by moment.

Meaning, a believer who is in fellowship has chosen to serve the Lord. But, when the believer gets out of fellowship, by either grieving or quenching the Spirit, they have chosen to serve sin.

Without a doubt.

Believers have 2 natures. Their original human sinful nature, and their new, born again nature. Aren't you aware of that?

Jesus had 2 natures. One fully human, and one fully divine (Deity).

How do you explain Jesus' comment in Matt 24:36 regarding the Tribulation?
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Are you saying that those who are in Christ don't sin????

Sure. 1 John 2:2.

Correct. But falling from grace and apostatizing doesn't result in loss of salvation.

Then correct me. Take my analysis and show me the correct understanding.

This is just opinion. Addresss EACH VERSE and explain how my take on it is wrong.

Well, now you're beginning to see the light. It IS about lifestyle. Welcome aboard!

Well, now you're just confused. Because of your immediately previous comment about "not to be slothful or like a drunkard". How is that NOT a lifestyle??

freegrace,

1. Before I answer your objections tell me something.
Paul said I die daily in 1 Corinthians 15:31.
Do you think if you read that passage alone by itself without knowing the context you would know what it means to die daily? Let me know. Jerry Kelso

FreeGrace2 · Sep 13, 2019

jerry kelso said:
freegrace,

1. Before I answer your objections tell me something.
Paul said I die daily in 1 Corinthians 15:31.

It is clear that Paul had Rom 8:13 in mind in that verse.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Do you think if you read that passage alone by itself without knowing the context you would know what it means to die daily? Let me know. Jerry Kelso

Paul understood the fact that each believer has a choice; to live according to the flesh (human sinful nature) or or according to the Spirit (new, born again nature).

This is how he described the struggle:

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Phil W · Sep 13, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"A believer is a child of God. How can disobedience change a child into an unchild??"
I never said anything about what people "say". Please start reading my posts before you keep making these kinds of errors. I am speaking about "believers". Not "sayers".

Good. I'm glad we agree on this point.
"Sayers" are not children of God, and their sin shows the truth of that in 1 John 3:9.

The new nature cannot sin. Correct. But we still have our sinful nature, which you deny, but Paul made clear.

Then you don't believe Paul in 2 Cor 5:17.

Why do you believe the fantasy that children cannot disobey? Haven't you read Heb 12?

Because God's children don't walk in the flesh. They walk in the Spirit. They adhere to the exhortations and warnings provided by God their Father.
I really hope you don't believe God's children tell lies, commit murder, and adultery, etc.

As the "believers" believe and obey the exhortations, sin identifies who is not a "real believer".

You got that right.

The Spirit remains IN the believer.
1 Cor 6:19 - Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom
you have from God? ... The Holy Spirit, whom you received from God, lives in you.

Again, we are in agreement.

The exact stuff I commented on.
This is naivety. But since you deny that believers can sin, or that believers still have their sinful natures, you will never understand much of the NT.

We can't agree until you finally believe the new creature isn't created until the old one has been killed and buried with Christ.

jerry kelso · Sep 13, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
It is clear that Paul had Rom 8:13 in mind in that verse.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Paul understood the fact that each believer has a choice; to live according to the flesh (human sinful nature) or or according to the Spirit (new, born again nature).

This is how he described the struggle:

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

freegrace2,

1. You didn’t really answer what I posed to you.
If you only read that phrase I Die daily without reading and knowing the context
could you understand the phrase. The answer is no without guessing or assuming from what knowledge you have of other scriptures.
That was your first mistake.

2. It is improper hermeneutics to consult other contexts as a basic rule to prove another context because the immediate context may be different.
That was your 2nd mistake.

3. Living to the flesh or the spirit is not what this context is about.
That is your 3rd mistake.

4. Most people will say that Paul was talking about dying to sin every day.
According to Paul in Romans 6 he believed in dying to sin once as Christ died once.
Some say he crucified the flesh. Romans 6:6 the old man was crucified with Christ at the cross.
We are to deny ourselves and recognize who we are in Christ. That is still not the context. Paul belied in glorying in the cross. He wasn’t struggling with the flesh vs. spirit. This is not the context or point.

5. 1 Corinthians 15:12 says that Paul was speaking to those who didn’t believe in the physical resurrection.
Paul said the death, burial, and resurrection in vs. 1-4. Paul said we put our line on our the line for the cause of Christ and if there was no physical resurrection then their preaching was in vain, Faith was in vain, Christ died in vain etc.
Paul goes through a long excursion about the physical resurrection from Christ the first fruits to his coming and down to God all in all concerning the millennial kingdom.
Then he gets down to Baptism for the dead. What good is Baptism for the dead if there is no physical resurrection.
Paul said, I protest but your rejoicing I die daily.
The protest was because they could be killed for the cause of Christ everyday and they were killed in the hearts of men each day.
If there was no hope of a physical resurrection they might as well eat, drink and be merry because there is no tomorrow.
The point of the immediate context is physical resurrection of which without everything was in vain and without hope.

6. To harmonize that scripture go to 2 Corinthians 4:9-11 we bear about in our body the dying of the Lord Jesus.
It was the message that they could be killed for. In Romans 8 we are led as sheep to the slaughter.
So dying to sin or crucifying the flesh or battling the flesh against the spirit is not the context or the true point of the context, but physical resurrection is. Jerry Kelso

Phil W · Sep 13, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
You're trying to have it both ways. You have used Heb 3:19 to condemn believers who didn't enter the promised land because of their lack of trust in God as an example of loss of salvation, yet Moses met the SAME FATE but you struggle to excuse his lack of trust.

Events during Moses' time were pictures for our benefit.
Moses wasn't under the Law when he manifested his unbelief.
No law...no sin.

Yes, he WAS saved and went to heaven, which is PROVEN when Jesus was transfigured.

Agreed.
The penalty Moses suffered for his unbelief wasn't denial of entry to heaven, but to the promised land.

But, what you fail to grasp is that the entire first generation of the Exodus were also saved and still went to heaven, even though they didn't enter the promised land.

Again, no law...no sin.
Unatoned for sins, after the Mosaic Law's dictates were instituted, would cause loss of salvation.

If you were consistent, both Moses and the rest of the first generation met the same fate. But you are not consistent.

I hadn't addressed the rest of the company exiting Egypt till this post.

Didn't you read the actual account? After Moses told the crowd that they wouldn't enter the land, they all repented. And they showed faith after that.
But, being so inconsistent, you still separate the fates of the whole crowd and Moses.
Excuse me, but noting a new heart indicates a new birth.

Perhaps it is another presage-picture of what was to come, but not an actual rebirth...or it would have said so directly.

Please provide a verse to support this opinion.

And I showed how that opinion is totally incorrect. Remember that Moses DIDN'T enter the promised land. So how did he enter heaven, if the promised land is a presage of heaven?

The "picture" wasn't for Moses, it was for us.
You are "mixing your metaphors" again.

Unless they repented and placed their faith in the Messiah, NONE of them went to heaven.

I agree.
If men don't turn from sin they will not go to heaven.
All believers who are destined for eternal life have turned form sin.
So...it isn't "faith alone"...is it?

This proves that all believers face this choice of who to serve. This isn't a one-time choice, as it seems you believe. It's a daily choice.

Every journey starts with one step.
Choose today which "lord" you will serve, and choose everyday to continue serving only that one Lord.

That's because you don't understand anything about God's grace. He has promised that those who have received eternal life shall never perish, while you believe that recipients that choose to serve sin WON'T get to heaven.

As you said above..."Unless they repented and placed their faith in the Messiah, NONE of them went to heaven."
Servants of sin will not spend eternity with the God they offend.

Your graceless opinion flies directly in the face of what Jesus said.
Again, you don't understand grace, as your posts and opinions reveal.

It seems you are using the grace of God as a "get out of jail free" card.
His grace allows men to walk in the light, which is God, and there is no sin in God.
Don't you want to live without sin?
That is what God's grace allows.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 13, 2019

jerry kelso said:
freegrace2,

1. You didn’t really answer what I posed to you.

Yes I did.

If you only read that phrase I Die daily without reading and knowing the context
could you understand the phrase.

I do understand the phrase. And I showed where else Paul used the concept.

The answer is no without guessing or assuming from what knowledge you have of other scriptures.

You are mistaken.

That was your first mistake.

No, but you've made some.

2. It is improper hermeneutics to consult other contexts as a basic rule to prove another context because the immediate context may be different.
That was your 2nd mistake.

3. Living to the flesh or the spirit is not what this context is about.
That is your 3rd mistake.

So, words don't mean anything?? Another mistake on you.

4. Most people will say that Paul was talking about dying to sin every day.
According to Paul in Romans 6 he believed in dying to sin once as Christ died once.
Some say he crucified the flesh. Romans 6:6 the old man was crucified with Christ at the cross.
We are to deny ourselves and recognize who we are in Christ. That is still not the context. Paul belied in glorying in the cross. He wasn’t struggling with the flesh vs. spirit. This is not the context or point.

I'm beginning to get bored. What is your point?

Just explain what you think "I die daily" means.

So dying to sin or crucifying the flesh or battling the flesh against the spirit is not the context or the true point of the context, but physical resurrection is. Jerry Kelso

So, how does "physical resurrection" have any relationship with "I die daily"??

You have made it very difficult to follow what you point may be.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 13, 2019

Phil W said:
Events during Moses' time were pictures for our benefit.
Moses wasn't under the Law when he manifested his unbelief.
No law...no sin.

lol. Are you kidding!!?? God held Moses accountable for his lack of faith. He was NOT allowed to enter the promised land. That is punishment.

And you need to read and understand 1 Cor 10:1-11.

The penalty Moses suffered for his unbelief wasn't denial of entry to heaven, but to the promised land.

But you have claimed that the promised land "presaged" heaven. You've still got a conflict in your views.

Again, no law...no sin.
Unatoned for sins, after the Mosaic Law's dictates were instituted, would cause loss of salvation.

You haven't provided ANY verses that speak about losing salvation.

I hadn't addressed the rest of the company exiting Egypt till this post.

Doesn't matter. I did.

I said:
"Excuse me, but noting a new heart indicates a new birth."

Please provide a verse to support this opinion.

I did. Ezek 36-
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

If men don't turn from sin they will not go to heaven.

How come you can't prove this from Scripture?

All believers who are destined for eternal life have turned form sin.

How come you can't prove this from Scripture?

So...it isn't "faith alone"...is it?

Yes it is. But you don't believe Paul's answer to the jailer, or the 24 verses on how to be saved and have eternal life.

It seems you are using the grace of God as a "get out of jail free" card.

It seems Arminians are always thinking that if salvation isn't lost, then the sinner "gets away with it". Well, you just don't know about God's discipline, which is painful. Heb 12:11.

jerry kelso · Sep 13, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes I did.

I do understand the phrase. And I showed where else Paul used the concept.

You are mistaken.

No, but you've made some.

So, words don't mean anything?? Another mistake on you.

I'm beginning to get bored. What is your point?

Just explain what you think "I die daily" means.

So, how does "physical resurrection" have any relationship with "I die daily"??

You have made it very difficult to follow what you point may be.

freegrace2,

1. You say you know what I die daily means according to the other scriptures outside of the immediate context.
But you cannot understand it to the immediate context, otherwise you wouldn’t ask me how physical resurrection has to in relation with the immediate context.
You are either unable to comprehend because of having tunnel vision or you are not being truthful or a little of both.

2. The statement about being bored shows you are not seeking truth or trying to be objective at all.

3. Verse 12 shows those who didn’t believe in the resurrection was why Paul was objecting to their claim of no resurrection. That is why he said, I protest by your rejoicing I Die Daily.
They were not objecting to him dying to sin or self.
They were objecting to their claim of a physical resurrection.
Dying to self or sin or the flesh or struggling with the spirit doesn’t make Christ death in vain.
Paul said if there’s no hope of a physical resurrection then Christ death would be in vain.
So you are not being forthright to the truth whether accidental or on purpose.
A text without a context is just a pretext.
With your type of thinking of using outside sources instead of the immediate context first is why we wind up with wrong doctrine. Jerrykelso

Phil W · Sep 13, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
lol. Are you kidding!!?? God held Moses accountable for his lack of faith. He was NOT allowed to enter the promised land. That is punishment.

Yes, it was.

And you need to read and understand 1 Cor 10:1-11.

"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
Isn't that what I said earlier?

But you have claimed that the promised land "presaged" heaven. You've still got a conflict in your views.

Do you really think the Jew's promised land was actually heaven?

You haven't provided ANY verses that speak about losing salvation.

I haven't needed to since you announced that sinners are false believers.
I, earlier in the thread, thought you were implying anyone who "said" they believed was guaranteed entry to heaven.
It is the real believers who will be faithful till the end.

I said:
"Excuse me, but noting a new heart indicates a new birth."
I did. Ezek 36-
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

In this case, the new heart is a presage of actual rebirth to come in the NT.

How come you can't prove this from Scripture?
How come you can't prove this from Scripture?

Because you don;t believe the ones I provide.
Here's another stab at it...
"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
Serving something instead of serving God is idolatry.
No idolaters are going to heaven.

Yes it is. But you don't believe Paul's answer to the jailer, or the 24 verses on how to be saved and have eternal life.

Didn't he jailer get baptized by Paul?
One's belief will be determined at the last judgement.
Folks who "say" they believe in 1999 may not in 2020.

It seems Arminians are always thinking that if salvation isn't lost, then the sinner "gets away with it". Well, you just don't know about God's discipline, which is painful. Heb 12:11.

I agree with you that sinners show they never really believed.
How could a real believer ever turn on the One who died for them?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 14, 2019

jerry kelso said:
freegrace2,

1. You say you know what I die daily means according to the other scriptures outside of the immediate context.
But you cannot understand it to the immediate context, otherwise you wouldn’t ask me how physical resurrection has to in relation with the immediate context.

My questions reveal your confusing posts. I ask when I don't understand a post. It seems to me you are somehow equating "I die daily" to physical resurrection.

If that's not true, just explain yourself, and what you did mean.

You are either unable to comprehend because of having tunnel vision or you are not being truthful or a little of both.

Instead of whining about stuff, just clarify your post. No need to get snarky about it.

2. The statement about being bored shows you are not seeking truth or trying to be objective at all.

When I don't find truth in other's posts, I do get bored.

3. Verse 12 shows those who didn’t believe in the resurrection was why Paul was objecting to their claim of no resurrection. That is why he said, I protest by your rejoicing I Die Daily.

So, again, here I see your linking resurrection with the phrase "I die daily". And you have the gall to criticize me for seeing what you are doing.

They were not objecting to him dying to sin or self.
They were objecting to their claim of a physical resurrection.

Ah, once again a link between physical resurrection and "I die daily".

Dying to self or sin or the flesh or struggling with the spirit doesn’t make Christ death in vain.

Actually, nothing can do that. Because His death wasn't in vain. He actually paid for the sins of all of humanity.

But, please explain WHY so many people for whom Christ died and paid their sin debt, will end up in the lake of fire.

Paul said if there’s no hope of a physical resurrection then Christ death would be in vain.

So, how does that relate to "I die daily" then?

So you are not being forthright to the truth whether accidental or on purpose.
A text without a context is just a pretext.

What's your point here?

With your type of thinking of using outside sources instead of the immediate context first is why we wind up with wrong doctrine. Jerrykelso

Say what??!! What are you insinuating?

And please define "outside sources", since I never quote commentaries.

renniks · Sep 14, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Now we get to the crux of the Arminian problem. Totally lacking any understanding of grace, and being highly offended by the sins of others, Arminians just can't stand to think that a rebellious child of God deserves to get to heaven. They need to DIE! DIE! DIE!

Not at all, but a rebellious child of God is still ,in his heart of hearts, a believer. Otherwise he would no longer be a child of God.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 14, 2019

I said:
"But you have claimed that the promised land "presaged" heaven. You've still got a conflict in your views."

Phil W said:
Do you really think the Jew's promised land was actually heaven?
Obviously not. But it seems you still think that the promised land was a type of heaven.

I said:
"You haven't provided ANY verses that speak about losing salvation."

I haven't needed to since you announced that sinners are false believers.

Click to expand...

First, this is a bald faced LIE. I've never done any such thing. And to prove it, I CHALLENGE you to cite the actual post # so I and the rest of the readers of this thread can see it for ourselves.

Second, any poster who makes a theological claim DOES NEED to provide verses that support their claim. And you cannot do that.

I, earlier in the thread, thought you were implying anyone who "said" they believed was guaranteed entry to heaven.

Click to expand...

I've NEVER EVER said that a person who "says" they believe will get into heaven.

I've ALWAYS said that the person who believes (not "says" they believe) in Christ for salvation will get into heaven.

Are you able to discern the difference here?

It is the real believers who will be faithful till the end.

Click to expand...

Wanna bet? I challenge you to provide verses that actually say this.

otoh, this is what Scripture says about the subject:
1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

To be clear, unbelievers cannot be said to "abandon the faith". Unless you have the confused idea that you can say that someone "abandoned the ship" even though they were NEVER ON the ship.

In this case, the new heart is a presage of actual rebirth to come in the NT.

Click to expand...

Please explain how the "new heart" and "new spirit" mentioned in Ezek 36 cannot be literal.

I challenged you by these statements:
"How come you can't prove this from Scripture?
How come you can't prove this from Scripture?"

Because you don;t believe the ones I provide.

Click to expand...

I don't believe your erroneous take on the verses you provide. And I explain WHY.

Bottom line: you make theological statements that you DON'T support from Scripture.

Here's another stab at it...
"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
Serving something instead of serving God is idolatry.

Click to expand...

Right.

No idolaters are going to heaven.

Click to expand...

Here is just another example of your making a theological statement WITHOUT any support from Scripture.

I understand your opinions. But they do not line up with Scripture.

Didn't he jailer get baptized by Paul?

Click to expand...

Yes. And your point? Where did Paul mention baptism in his answer to the jailer?

One's belief will be determined at the last judgement.

Click to expand...

You're quite unfamiliar with Scripture if you believe that.

John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11 and 13 all say clearly that those who believe HAVE (as in current possession) eternal life.

So, from the MOMENT that one does believe in Christ, they possess eternal life. Care to disagree and prove your disagreement with Scripture?

And then Jesus said those He gives eternal life (that would be those who believe and WHEN they believe) shall never perish.

Care to disagree and prove your disagreement with Scripture?

Folks who "say" they believe in 1999 may not in 2020.

Click to expand...

You didn't need to put quotation marks around 'say'. 1 Tim 4:1 makes that clear.

And Jesus Himself noted some who will "believe for a while, but in time of teting, will fall away". Luke 8:13

I agree with you that sinners show they never really believed.

Click to expand...

You sure misunderstand what I have posted. What statement or paragraph of mine led you to your conclusion here?

How could a real believer ever turn on the One who died for them?

Click to expand...

Kinda like asking how could an angel ever turn on the One who created them and blessed him above every other angel?

Don't be so naive. Aren't you familiar with Lucifer? He had everything in heaven, but the throne itself. Though he held the highest rank in heaven as the Guardian of the Throne. He was the closest angel to God Himself.

Yet, he rebelled.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 14, 2019

I said:
"Now we get to the crux of the Arminian problem. Totally lacking any understanding of grace, and being highly offended by the sins of others, Arminians just can't stand to think that a rebellious child of God deserves to get to heaven. They need to DIE! DIE! DIE!"

renniks said:
Not at all, but a rebellious child of God is still ,in his heart of hearts, a believer. Otherwise he would no longer be a child of God.

So then, you don't believe that a person can lose salvation?

renniks · Sep 14, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"Now we get to the crux of the Arminian problem. Totally lacking any understanding of grace, and being highly offended by the sins of others, Arminians just can't stand to think that a rebellious child of God deserves to get to heaven. They need to DIE! DIE! DIE!"

So then, you don't believe that a person can lose salvation?

No, it's not like misplacing your car keys. You can't accidentally lose it. But I believe you can forfeit it, by total and constant rejection of the Spirit that results in unbelief.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 14, 2019

I asked:
"So then, you don't believe that a person can lose salvation?"

renniks said:
No, it's not like misplacing your car keys. You can't accidentally lose it. But I believe you can forfeit it, by total and constant rejection of the Spirit that results in unbelief.

OK, so you DO believe that salvation can be 'lost' in the sense of not having it anymore.

What verse or verses led you to your conclusion?

Remember the Berean's, who "searched the Scriptures daily, to see if what Paul said was true."

I've done that with your teaching and I have found that there are no verses that support your claims.

However, since it is possible that I've missed the verse or passage that leads you to your conclusion, please share.

Do you know that I don't want to be wrong any more than you don't?

renniks · Sep 14, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you know that I don't want to be wrong any more than you don't?

I'm not sure what that means? I would have no problem being wrong. I have been close to accepting OSAS before, but always had doubts. When I balance the promises about God not leaving us with the warnings about falling away, this is where I land: God will not leave us but we can leave him, by no longer remaining in him at all.

jerry kelso · Sep 14, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
My questions reveal your confusing posts. I ask when I don't understand a post. It seems to me you are somehow equating "I die daily" to physical resurrection.

If that's not true, just explain yourself, and what you did mean.

Instead of whining about stuff, just clarify your post. No need to get snarky about it.

When I don't find truth in other's posts, I do get bored.

So, again, here I see your linking resurrection with the phrase "I die daily". And you have the gall to criticize me for seeing what you are doing.

Ah, once again a link between physical resurrection and "I die daily".

Actually, nothing can do that. Because His death wasn't in vain. He actually paid for the sins of all of humanity.

But, please explain WHY so many people for whom Christ died and paid their sin debt, will end up in the lake of fire.

So, how does that relate to "I die daily" then?

What's your point here?

Say what??!! What are you insinuating?

And please define "outside sources", since I never quote commentaries.

freegrace2,

1. 1 Corinthians 15:30; And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
Vs. 31; I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Vs. 32; If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage the DEAD RISE NOT?
Let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.

2. V30; they were in jeopardy which is in line with Romans 8:36; As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

3. V31; Paul was protesting by their rejoicing which he had in Christ Jesus.
What was Paul protesting that they were rejoicing about?
V12; Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, HOW SAY SOME AMONG YOU THAT THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD?
This is what Paul was protesting that they were rejoicing of what they believed and what Paul believed.
Then Paul said, I die daily.
Physically dying every day is a possibility for God has the power to raise us up. It is not a probability.
Paul dying daily to this context is being in jeopardy, v30 where they could be killed for the preaching of the message of the cross which goes in line with Romans 8: 36 and 2 Corinthians 4:10-11.

4. Paul was willing to be a Martyr for Christ only if their was a resurrection from the dead and the hope of Heaven.
This goes in line with Philippians 1:20-21; 3:14.

5. Dying daily concerns being in jeopardy for the cause of Christ where they could be killed at any time.
If Paul was going to live for Christ and could be killed any day because of it and there was no resurrection to live forever then he was stupid and they might as well eat and drink because they would die eventually.
Another words, without a physical resurrection and Heaven eternal there was no purpose in death.
This is the truth of I die daily and its connection to physical resurrection. Jerry Kelso

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