Were the angels lying?

FineLinen

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People need to beware of the false teaching you post.
You are attempting to put your own spin on the word of God & misinterpret this scripture.

The GOOD NEWS, aka is literally the GOSPEL---that goes out to all People - They chose whether to repent of their sins and become follower of Jesus as their Lord & Savior or not.
People who love the sin do not chose to submit to a Holy God.

Dear Petra: Please consider a Scripture.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, 'not willingly', but because of him who subjected it, in hope."

Two questions for you?

1. Was creation the source of futility in the "not willing" capacity?

2. Who subjected it?
 
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brinny

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Dear Petra: Please consider a Scripture.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, 'not willingly', but because of him who subjected it, in hope."

Two questions for you?

1. Was creation the source of futility in the "not willing" capacity?

2. Who subjected it?

What version is that from? And what verse is it?
 
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Pedra

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Dear Petra: Please consider a Scripture.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, 'not willingly', but because of him who subjected it, in hope."Two questions for you?
1. Was creation the source of futility in the "not willing" capacity?
2. Who subjected it?

I suggest if you want to know what the Bible teaches, then you need to stop plucking bible verses out of context & picking them apart and instead study them WITHIN the context that they are written. Then perhaps you will understand what they are saying. It is also helpful if you cite the scripture fully.
In Romans 8:20 Paul is speaking to Believers, he is referring to the curse that God placed upon the natural world after Adam and Eve sinned.
Romans 8:22 further states: Romans 8:22
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."
The bible tells us all of creation groaneth under the curse and awaits for Jesus return with the believers aka the children of God to rule with Him.
The Bible prophecies tell us that the earth is going to be redeemed from this curse in the end when The Lord Jesus Christ returns on a white horse as the conquering King and defeats the enemies of God & then takes His rightful place sitting on His throne in Jerusalem.
Revelation 19:11 “Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war”
 
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brinny

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FineLinen said:
Dear Petra: Please consider a Scripture.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, 'not willingly', but because of him who subjected it, in hope."Two questions for you?
1. Was creation the source of futility in the "not willing" capacity?
2. Who subjected it?
I suggest if you want to know what the Bible teaches, then you need to stop plucking bible verses out of context & picking them apart and instead study them WITHIN the context that they are written. Then perhaps you will understand what they are saying. It is also helpful if you cite the scripture fully.
In Romans 8:20 Paul is speaking to Believers, he is referring to the curse that God placed upon the natural world after Adam and Eve sinned.
Romans 8:22 further states: Romans 8:22
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."
The bible tells us all of creation groaneth under the curse and awaits for Jesus return with the believers aka the children of God to rule with Him.
The Bible prophecies tell us that the earth is going to be redeemed from this curse in the end when The Lord Jesus Christ returns on a white horse as the conquering King and defeats the enemies of God & then takes His rightful place sitting on His throne in Jerusalem.
Revelation 19:11 “Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war”
Amen.
 
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Kaon

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Dear Petra: Please consider a Scripture.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, 'not willingly', but because of him who subjected it, in hope."

Two questions for you?

1. Was creation the source of futility in the "not willing" capacity?

2. Who subjected it?

I want to honestly ask can you explain what your implications are. I don't want to run the mistake of completely misunderstanding you, and arguing against a wall (because we may agree without knowing it.) Even if we disagree, I am not really sure about your overall point/message.
 
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FineLinen

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I want to honestly ask can you explain what your implications are. I don't want to run the mistake of completely misunderstanding you, and arguing against a wall (because we may agree without knowing it.) Even if we disagree, I am not really sure about your overall point/message.

Dear Kaon: That will be impossible to express on a community message board, Christian or non. Perhaps we could start with the outer laminar spheres of the unspeakable unknown, but alas, we will not even attempt to go there.

Over the past 65 years of learning His ways, the process continues in expanding dimensions. When any one of us fails continuing to expand, we stop dead in Spirit and Life and must wander around in a world where the Lord Jesus Christ has many things to say to us, but alas.

In Him we live and move and have our being
 
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DamianWarS

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Thank you.

However i don't believe the OP is confused, as much as posting confusing posts.

The bottom line, is that we are to line up all we read with the Word of God, which is NOT confusing, but the antithesis of truth and clarity, for God is not the Author of confusion.

Therefore if i see a post that is confusing and/or makes no sense, my post will reflect that.
@FineLinen might not be confused about their ultimate message but in terms of their presentation of Greek, @FineLinen seems to be.

Quoting the OP it says "To all people = pas laos" which is fine and it is using the root Greek words for these examples. but then compares panta and pas together saying they are on the "same dimension"...:scratch: well they should be since they are the same word. But the OP presents this cryptically introducing these words with no context (not even saying they're Greek) like they stand alone and leaving us to guess at these conclusions.

It leaves me thinking the OP's foundation in greek is limited and perhaps shouldn't be making such strong conclusions on such a weak base.
 
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FineLinen

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I suggest if you want to know what the Bible teaches, then you need to stop plucking bible verses out of context & picking them apart and instead study them WITHIN the context that they are written. Then perhaps you will understand what they are saying. It is also helpful if you cite the scripture fully.

Dear Pedra: much thanks for your advise. The entire passage under consideration (without proper context and picking them apart) =

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

For if ye live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God
.
For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For Your sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Yes, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
 
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FineLinen

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@FineLinen might not be confused about their ultimate message but in terms of their presentation of Greek, @FineLinen seems to be.

Quoting the OP it says "To all people = pas laos" which is fine and it is using the root Greek words for these examples. but then compares panta and pas together saying they are on the "same dimension"...:scratch: well they should be since they are the same word. But the OP presents this cryptically introducing these words with no context (not even saying they're Greek) like they stand alone and leaving us to guess at these conclusions.

It leaves me thinking the OP's foundation in greek is limited and perhaps shouldn't be making such strong conclusions on such a weak base.

Dear Damian: Everything about me is weak!

You however must show us how pas (the radical all) and ta panta (the all) are different words in koine.

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

Romans 11:36=

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.
 
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LightLoveHope

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Same as we are supposed to read and understand the BIble in context, you need to stop taking my post out of the context which it was written.

I am unsure of what you mean. You stated

"God is not the god of riddles."

You appeared to be commenting on someone creating unclear comments, which probably needed thought and understanding of the context in which they were being created. So I responded that God used a similar technique.

So it strikes me I had the context 100% correct. Now I am happy to be corrected about my observation, and I am willing to grow in my understanding, so if you would be so kind, where was I wrong or taking your post out of context?

And I was attempting to make a simple point, one needs to give people space to see what they are saying. The book "the shack" is emotionally appealing, written by someone who appears to be a universalist, which I actually regard as too rosy and idyllic a view, and misses the point in regard to our failure to see love and truth and repent of sin and evil that will destroy everything we have unless we do this. Go into a maximum security prison and meet some of the inmates, and one will begin to understand the power of free will gone bad, and how evil destroys and possess people.

You do not need to defend love, purity and righteousness, but one does need to defend staying in sin and doing evil while believing God will make such a state eternal.
 
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brinny

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brinny said:
Thank you.

However i don't believe the OP is confused, as much as posting confusing posts.

The bottom line, is that we are to line up all we read with the Word of God, which is NOT confusing, but the antithesis of truth and clarity, for God is not the Author of confusion.

Therefore if i see a post that is confusing and/or makes no sense, my post will reflect that.
@FineLinen might not be confused about their ultimate message but in terms of their presentation of Greek, @FineLinen seems to be.

Quoting the OP it says "To all people = pas laos" which is fine and it is using the root Greek words for these examples. but then compares panta and pas together saying they are on the "same dimension"...:scratch: well they should be since they are the same word. But the OP presents this cryptically introducing these words with no context (not even saying they're Greek) like they stand alone and leaving us to guess at these conclusions.

It leaves me thinking the OP's foundation in greek is limited and perhaps shouldn't be making such strong conclusions on such a weak base.
i agree. It's deliberately sowing confusion (and deception, which has already been demonstrated).
 
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DamianWarS

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Dear Damian: Everything about me is weak!

You however must show us how pas (the radical all) and ta panta (the all) are different words in koine.

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

Romans 11:36=

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

pas and panta are the same greek word (G3956) and I'm not arguing they are different words (that's what you're doing...ah.. I think... it's a little confusing). it is an adjective so it is not just "all" but "all [mass noun]" Luke 10:2 however does not use the form pas or panta. it uses panti so your point sort of get's lost if you only want to focus on pas, panta and now pavnte. it's still the same Greek word (G3956) and any nuanced meaning is contextually based. I'm not arguing your point, just your presentation of Greek.

There are 30 inflections of this word but there's no point listing them all because they're all the same Greek word. The inflection can carry slight differences in meaning but they are contextually based and we can't just isolate the inflected word but must look at the context to determine the meaning.
 
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Pedra

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I am unsure of what you mean. You stated

"God is not the god of riddles."

You appeared to be commenting on someone creating unclear comments, which probably needed thought and understanding of the context in which they were being created. So I responded that God used a similar technique.

So it strikes me I had the context 100% correct. Now I am happy to be corrected about my observation, and I am willing to grow in my understanding, so if you would be so kind, where was I wrong or taking your post out of context?

And I was attempting to make a simple point, one needs to give people space to see what they are saying. The book "the shack" is emotionally appealing, written by someone who appears to be a universalist, which I actually regard as too rosy and idyllic a view, and misses the point in regard to our failure to see love and truth and repent of sin and evil that will destroy everything we have unless we do this. Go into a maximum security prison and meet some of the inmates, and one will begin to understand the power of free will gone bad, and how evil destroys and possess people.

You do not need to defend love, purity and righteousness, but one does need to defend staying in sin and doing evil while believing God will make such a state eternal.
You are free to believe whatever you chose. I truly don't care if you get what I meant or not , since my post was to someone else anyway. To purposely post confusion is not led by Holy Spirit.
1Cor 14:33 "“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
 
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FineLinen

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pas and panta are the same greek word (G3956) and I'm not arguing they are different words (that's what you're doing...ah.. I think... it's a little confusing). it is an adjective so it is not just "all" but "all [mass noun]" Luke 10:2 however does not use the form pas or panta. it uses panti so your point sort of get's lost if you only want to focus on pas, panta and now pavnte. it's still the same Greek word (G3956) and any nuanced meaning is contextually based. I'm not arguing your point, just your presentation of Greek.

There are 30 inflections of this word but there's no point listing them all because they're all the same Greek word. The inflection can carry slight differences in meaning but they are contextually based and we can't just isolate the inflected word but must look at the context to determine the meaning.

Dear Damian: I appreciate your clarification. The bottom line is both pas and ta pante yield precisely the same result.

Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament

William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich

[A translation & adaptation of Wm. Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch zu den Schrift en des Neueu Testaments und der uberigen]

PAS, pa’sa, pa’n gen. pantov", pavsh", pantov" (dat. pl. pa’si and pa’sin vary considerably in the mss.; s. W-S. §5, 28; cf. Rob. 219-21) (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, En., Ep. Arist., Philo, Joseph., Test. 12 Patr.).

  1. adj., used w. a noun—a. w. the noun in the sing. without the art.—a.
Emphasizing the individual members of the class denoted by the noun every, each, any, scarcely different in mng. fr. the pl. ‘all’: pa’n devndron Mt 3:10; Lk 3:9. pa’sa futeiva Mt 15:13. pa’sa favragx, pa’n o[ro" Lk 3:5 (Is 40:4). pa’" tovpo" 4:37. pa’" a[nqrwpo" J 1:9; 2:10; Ro 3:4 (Ps 115:2); Gal 5:3; Col 1:28a, b, d; Js 1:19. pa’n e[qno" Ac 17:26a. pa’sa yuchv (Pla., Phaedr. 249e) 2:43; 3:23 (cf. Lev 23:29); Ro 2:9. pa’sa hJmevra Ac 5:42; 17:17. pa’n savbbaton 18:4. pa’sa ajrch; kai; pa’sa ejxousiva 1 Cor 15:24. pa’sa suneivdhsi" 2 Cor 4:2. pa’" a{gio" Phil 4:21. pa’" oi\ko" Hb 3:4. pa’sa ajntilogiva 7:7. pa’sa paideiva all discipline 12:11. pa’" ojfqalmov" Rv 1:7a. pa’n ktivsma 5:13a.—Mt 23:35; Lk 2:23 (Ex 13:2); 4:13; 21:36; 2 Th 2:4 (Da 11:36). pa’sa ktivsi" every creature Col 1:15; ejn pavsh/ ktivsei to every creature vs. 23. pa’sa grafhv 2 Ti 3:16 (cf. grafhv 2a).

—In the OT, also En. (1, 9) and Test. Gad 7:2, but not in Ep. Arist., Philo, nor Joseph., is pa’sa savrx (r`;oBƒAlK all flesh Lk 3:6 (Is 40:5). Mostly w. a neg. (so also En. 14, 21; 17, 6) ouj (or mhv). . . pa’sa savrx no flesh=no one Mt 24:22; Mk 13:20; Ro 3:20; 1 Cor 1:29; Gal 2:16. Other sim. neg. expressions are also Hebraistic (cf. Bl-D. §302, 1; Mlt.-H. 433f) ouj. . . pa’n rJh’ma not a thing, nothing Lk 1:37 (cf. PRyl. 113, 12f [133 ad] mh;. . . pa’n pra’gma). oujdevpote e[fagon pa’n koinovn I have never eaten anything common Ac 10:14. Cf. Rv 7:1, 16; 9:4; 21:27. Also in reverse order, pa’". . . ouj or mhv (Ex 12:16; Sir 8:19; 10:6, but s. also GMLee, ET 63, ‘51f, 156) 18:22; Eph 4:29; 5:5; 2 Pt 1:20; 1J 2:21; 3:15b.—Only rarely is a ptc. used w. pa’" in this way: panto;" ajkouvonto" when anyone hears Mt 13:19. panti; ojfeivlonti Lk 11:4 (Mlt.-Turner 196f).

b. including everything belonging, in kind, to the class designated by the noun every kind of, all sorts of,

For the words pantodapov" and pantoi’o", which are lacking in our lit.: pa’sa novso" kai; pa’sa malakiva Mt 4:23. gevmousin pavsh" ajkaqarsiva" they are full of all kinds of uncleanness 23:27. pa’sa ejxousiva 28:18. ajpo; panto;" e[qnou" from every kind of nation Ac 2:5. Cf. 7:22; 13:10a, b; Ro 1:18, 29. pa’sa ejpiqumiva (evil) desire of every kind 7:8. ejn panti; lovgw/ kai; pavsh/ gnwvsei 1 Cor 1:5b. pa’n aJmavrthma every kind of sin 6:18. Cf. 2 Cor 7:1; 9:8b, c; 10:5a, b; Eph 1:3, 8, 21 a; 4:19; 5:3; Phil 1:9; 2 Th 2:17. pa’n e[rgon ajgaqovn Tit 1:16; 3:1. Cf. 2:14; Hb 13:21. pa’sa dovsi", pa’n dwvrhma Js 1:17 (W-S. §20, 11b). Cf. vs. 21; 1 Pt 2:1 a, b; Rev 8:7 al.

c. every, any and every, just any, any at all mh;

Panti; pneuvmati pisteuvete do not believe just any spirit 1J 4:1. periferovmenoi panti; ajnevmw/ th’" didaskaliva" Eph 4:14. peri; panto;" pravgmato" about anything Mt 18:19. kata; pa’san au]tivan for any reason at all 19:3. Cf. 4:4=Lk 4:4 t.r. (Dt 8:3); Mt 12:31; 2 Cor 1:4b (on ejpi; pavsh/ th’/ qlivyei hJmw’n vs. 4a see 1cb below).

d. to denote the highest degree full, greatest, all

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.
 
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brinny

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I dont see the purpose in continuing to go after every post the OPer makes.....trying to discredit Him. Pages and pages of "you are false, you make no sense, your greek is bad, high fives to the ones that side with me in going against him"

Defending the gospel, is one thing, but this goes beyond that. Even one in support of the naysayers stated that these things should be stated once or twice and then move on.

So why is it continuing? and on multiple threads..

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

What we do to the least, we do it as unto Christ.

Do unto others as you will have done to you.

If you desire your words to be respect, you must respect the words of others... Not agree with, but respect.

For we all are doing and saying what we believe is right, are we not? Even the religious of old, believed they were doing and speaking what was right when they crucified our Lord. They werent trying to be evil......they were just killing off anyone who spoke anything outside of the scriptures as they knew them....just like Saul....Just like.....

Let us be careful lest we do the same. The spirit of, "What I know is the truth, and everything that sounds contrary is the lie" Is a very dangerous spirit to have.

And the very opposite of How a child would behave......and except we become like as a child.....
 
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Pedra

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And that above is how false teachings infiltrate the churches because they get defended.
We are not supposed to be slack with contending for the Faith.

Did you know there is a female Pastor who guides a church who has admitted she was an atheist? half the parishioners supported her.
 
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brinny

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I dont see the purpose in continuing to go after every post the OPer makes.....trying to discredit Him. Pages and pages of "you are false, you make no sense, your greek is bad, high fives to the ones that side with me in going against him"

Defending the gospel, is one thing, but this goes beyond that. Even one in support of the naysayers stated that these things should be stated once or twice and then move on.

So why is it continuing? and on multiple threads..

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

What we do to the least, we do it as unto Christ.

Do unto others as you will have done to you.

If you desire your words to be respect, you must respect the words of others... Not agree with, but respect.

For we all are doing and saying what we believe is right, are we not? Even the religious of old, believed they were doing and speaking what was right when they crucified our Lord. They werent trying to be evil......they were just killing off anyone who spoke anything outside of the scriptures as they knew them....just like Saul....Just like.....

Let us be careful lest we do the same. The spirit of, "What I know is the truth, and everything that sounds contrary is the lie" Is a very dangerous spirit to have.

And the very opposite of How a child would behave......and except we become like as a child.....
Posts here are meant to be lined up with God's Word and therefore challenged.

We are admonished to do so by God's Word, Raymond.
 
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