The Difference between Daniel`s 70th Week and the Tribulation.

nolidad · Sep 11, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi nolidad,

God Himself reveals who the 5 world rulers are. And we know that the whole world also meant the known world at that time.

`And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL THE WORLD should be registered.` (Luke 2: 1)

Babylon - Dan. 2: 38.
Medes & Persians - Dan. 5: 31.
Greece - Dan. 8: 21.
Rome - Luke 2: 1.
Islam - Isa. 31: 8.

Marilyn.

That is a mighty leap! Especially considering that Assyrian in Isaiah 31 is plural and means the nation.

Douggg · Sep 11, 2019

nolidad said:
Because vse 16 says man- you decided it was the antichrist and not Satan. I merely pointed out that Paul called Jesus a man!

The difference is that Jesus is the Son of man, son of Mary, and God. Satan is an angel. Plus why would it be said of Satan, Isaiah 14:20 that he destroys his land and his people?

Douggg · Sep 11, 2019

nolidad said:
YOu do not even know middle east burial events. People are buried immediately! He may not have dirt thrown on Him (He will be in babylon at this point most likely though that is not definite). It will be like Lazarus!

I am aware of the Jewish customs in the burial of their dead.

Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

On the other issue of where - babylon ? Where are you calling babylon ?

Douggg · Sep 11, 2019

nolidad said:
The 2300 days after the transgression runs that into the millenial kingdom! That is utter nonsense- even with your hard worked but erroneous chart.

The 2300 days end the day that Jesus returns. That is also what I show on my chart.

The 2300 days begin on day 220 of the 7 years. The chart is not in error.

nolidad said:
So you need the trangression of desolation occuring in the first 3/4 of a year into the 70th week or no more than 135 days after that! you do not even declare what it is!

What are you talking about? The 2300 days represent the time from when the daily sacrifices begin again until the temple is cleansed. When during that period, the transgression of desolation act take place is unknown. Most likely, though, around three years into the 7 years, because it has to precede the person being killed, come to life, and the image made of him and placed in the temple (the AoD) on day 1185

nolidad said:
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

It is not talking about Antiochus. Verse 22, is about Alexander and the four break up kingdoms - plural.

In verse 23, it is not talking about those four kingdoms (plural), but the end time kingdom (singular) of the transgressors, at they time they come to the full - i.e. the ten kings of Daniel 7's fourth kingdom are in place. The king of fierce countenance is the end time little horn person of Daniel 7.

nolidad said:
Antiochus fit the description of HIm in chptr 8! And he caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease and lo and behold, the Maccabees rebellion ousted the Greeks and it took 2300 days to cleanse the temple from start to finish!

Antiochus is Daniel 11:31. In Daniel 11:35, it transitions to the time of the end, leaving Antiochus far into history. In Daniel 11:36 is the end times beast.

Douggg · Sep 11, 2019

nolidad said:
Having to be a Jew is a concept made by many who allegorize things and pull verses out of context.

Jesus was not an allegory. Nor pulled out of context. Jesus is the rightful King of Israel, who came in the name of the Lord. And the Antichrist will the another who comes in his own name.

nolidad said:
Why would a Jew make a treaty of peace with Israel?: That is not done! A foreign ruler will make a treaty, but Netenyahu does not sign a covenant with Israel nor did any other Jewish Ruler (except Jesus)

It is not a peace treaty. The notion that it will be a peace treaty is a misconception of Daniel 9:27, perpetuated over the years.

The confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27, is the Mt. Sinai covenant, that the person will confirm by making a big speech about it from the temple mount. Moses made the requirement in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Marilyn C · Sep 12, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Your post above contains a contradiction.

You claim that Peter did not understand the Body of Christ, even though he was witness to the Gentiles becoming a part of the New Covenant, falls apart below. A person enters the New Covenant Body of Christ through the baptism of the Spirit of God. Peter clearly understood this fact below.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Just because Peter remembered about the Holy Spirit, doesn`t mean he knew about the Body of Christ. Remember he tried to make the Gentiles live as Jews and Paul had to rebuke him. (Gal. 2: 14) You seem to keep missing that!

Now Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and through Him all the promises are fulfilled.

Abel obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. abel looked for the promise of the city, and that is through Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant, in whom ALL THE PROMISES to each group are given.

The Body of Christ promised to sit with Christ on His throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)
The OT saints promised the city which COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. (Heb. 11: 16)
The nations promised an earthly inheritance. (Rev. 21: 24)

BABerean2 · Sep 12, 2019

Marilyn C said:
The Body of Christ promised to sit with Christ on His throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)
The OT saints promised the city which COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. (Heb. 11: 16)
The nations promised an earthly inheritance. (Rev. 21: 24)

Once again, your claim that the inheritance of the Body of Christ and that of the Old Testament saints is different falls apart in the scripture below.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Paul said the Jerusalem above is our mother.)

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(What is the heavenly city prepared for the Old Testament saints above?)

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(The New Covenant passage above describes the heavenly Jerusalem as our destination.)

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Why did you quote Revelation 3:21, but you are trying to ignore Revelation 3:12 that comes before it, which identifies New Jerusalem as the location of the temple? This agrees with Galatians 4:25-26, and Hebrews 12:22.

The passages above reveal that New Jerusalem is the future inheritance of both the New Testament, and the Old Testament saints.

Why do you ignore what Paul said in Galatians 4:25-26?

Why are you trying to ignore some passages? Because all man-made doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work. They are doctrines of ignorance.
Your Three Peoples of God doctrine is an example of this principle.

.

nolidad · Sep 12, 2019

Douggg said:
The difference is that Jesus is the Son of man, son of Mary, and God. Satan is an angel. Plus why would it be said of Satan, Isaiah 14:20 that he destroys his land and his people?

It just does. God did not say why! You cannot have a context and split it up between one time and another thousands of years away! or have it address one person and in the middle of addressing that person go to another person without letting teh reader know! God is not he author of confusion.

nolidad · Sep 12, 2019

Douggg said:
The 2300 days end the day that Jesus returns. That is also what I show on my chart.

The 2300 days begin on day 220 of the 7 years. The chart is not in error.

What are you talking about? The 2300 days represent the time from when the daily sacrifices begin again until the temple is cleansed. When during that period, the transgression of desolation act take place is unknown. Most likely, though, around three years into the 7 years, because it has to precede the person being killed, come to life, and the image made of him and placed in the temple (the AoD) on day 1185

It is not talking about Antiochus. Verse 22, is about Alexander and the four break up kingdoms - plural.

In verse 23, it is not talking about those four kingdoms (plural), but the end time kingdom (singular) of the transgressors, at they time they come to the full - i.e. the ten kings of Daniel 7's fourth kingdom are in place. The king of fierce countenance is the end time little horn person of Daniel 7.

Antiochus is Daniel 11:31. In Daniel 11:35, it transitions to the time of the end, leaving Antiochus far into history. In Daniel 11:36 is the end times beast.

View attachment 263009

Sorry but you are wrong!

You cannot have a prophesy jump two thousand years+ in one verse!
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

The latter time refers to teh end of the rule of the four generals. Antiochus rose up and did much evil to Israel. YOu need to read History. History shows that the Maccabean rebellion took place and fromt he time Antiochus committed the transgression of desolation (sacrificing a pig on the altar) until the temple was restored- was 2300 days!

Whoever drew your chart is wanting in history and grammar of verses and is wrong.

This king you want to be in the 70th week rises up at teh latter time of the four king/generals. Lysemechus, Seleucus, Antigonus, Ptolemy at teh last days of their king dom. Are you saying these four kingsd have been ruling for over 2000 years now?

This vision given Daniel is not for the end, but just for many days! Approx 4 centuriess into the future is many days!

nolidad · Sep 12, 2019

Douggg said:
Jesus was not an allegory. Nor pulled out of context. Jesus is the rightful King of Israel, who came in the name of the Lord. And the Antichrist will the another who comes in his own name.

It is not a peace treaty. The notion that it will be a peace treaty is a misconception of Daniel 9:27, perpetuated over the years.

The confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27, is the Mt. Sinai covenant, that the person will confirm by making a big speech about it from the temple mount. Moses made the requirement in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

No Jesus is not an allegory, but saying the Antichrist has to be a Jew is twisting Scriptures. There is nothing that says He needs to be a Jew and the Scriptures place him as Satans' physical son and a probable Italian woman. Then you go into a game of twister to try to say the italian woman could be a Jew!

Well given all the end times prophesies- it is most likely a treaty guarenteeing security for Israel and possibly even allowing them to rebuild the temple. After all there will be a major assault by multiple nations on Israel in the end days led by Russia. Isaiah says that God will annul the covenant that Israel made with death! Which was a land for peace covenant in the future

Your opoinion is just silly.It is not a confirming of the Mosaic Law. That is conjecture without evidence.

Douggg · Sep 12, 2019

nolidad said:
It just does. God did not say why! You cannot have a context and split it up between one time and another thousands of years away! or have it address one person and in the middle of addressing that person go to another person without letting teh reader know! God is not he author of confusion.

What is a thousand years away? It is talking about Satan's demise. The prophecies in Ezekiel 28 regarding the man of sin, and Satan, takes place during the 7 years.

Marilyn C · Sep 12, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Once again, your claim that the inheritance of the Body of Christ and that of the Old Testament saints is different falls apart in the scripture below.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Paul said the Jerusalem above is our mother.)

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(What is the heavenly city prepared for the Old Testament saints above?)

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(The New Covenant passage above describes the heavenly Jerusalem as our destination.)

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Why did you quote Revelation 3:21, but you are trying to ignore Revelation 3:12 that comes before it, which identifies New Jerusalem as the location of the temple? This agrees with Galatians 4:25-26, and Hebrews 12:22.

The passages above reveal that New Jerusalem is the future inheritance of both the New Testament, and the Old Testament saints.

Why do you ignore what Paul said in Galatians 4:25-26?

Why are you trying to ignore some passages? Because all man-made doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work. They are doctrines of ignorance.
Your Three Peoples of God doctrine is an example of this principle.

.

Hi BABerean,

I have pointed out scripturally before and you have not replied to it, thus I think our discussion has come to an end.

Jerusalem we are told has two parts, one for ruling, Mount Zion, where king David ruled from and one for the city.
The heavenly Jerusalem we are told also has the ruling part, Mount Zion, and this is for the Body of Christ, (Rev, 3:21) while the OT saints have been promised the city.
Together, each in their promised realm, we will rule from the highest & the OT saints in the universe.

Then as to the details of our inheritance in Rev. 3: 12 we see we have -
1. The name/authority of God, which includes the earth.
2. The name/authority of the city, where we can visit.
3. The name/authority of the Lord`s new name/authority in the highest.

Marilyn.

Douggg · Sep 12, 2019

nolidad said:
No Jesus is not an allegory, but saying the Antichrist has to be a Jew is twisting Scriptures. There is nothing that says He needs to be a Jew and the Scriptures place him as Satans' physical son and a probable Italian woman. Then you go into a game of twister to try to say the italian woman could be a Jew!

the "italian woman" is something you came up with. I am saying the person, no matter where he is born, his mother will be a Jew. She may be an Italian Jew, I don't know.

Douggg · Sep 12, 2019

nolidad said:
Well given all the end times prophesies- it is most likely a treaty guarenteeing security for Israel and possibly even allowing them to rebuild the temple. After all there will be a major assault by multiple nations on Israel in the end days led by Russia. Isaiah says that God will annul the covenant that Israel made with death! Which was a land for peace covenant in the future

You are not putting anything in order, nor are making any connections.

On one hand you say the Daniel 9 confirming of the covenant is treaty guaranteeing the security for Israel. Then you allude to Gog/Magog, led by Russia. Then you mentions a covenant that Israel make with death (and hell) in Isaiah, which you say is a land for peace covenant.

And you leave out why people will be say peace and safety, right before the beginning of the Day of the Lord catches them off guard..
___________________________________________________

In your view, which comes first - Gog/Magog or the confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 ?

BABerean2 · Sep 13, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi BABerean,

I have pointed out scripturally before and you have not replied to it, thus I think our discussion has come to an end.

You are correct about one thing.

By this time everyone witnessing our discussion has seen the scripture you must ignore to make your Three Peoples of God doctrine work.

You continue to quote Revelation 3:21, while ignoring Revelation 3:12.
Others here can see what you are doing.

If you want to pretend Revelation 3:12 does not exist, there is nothing we can say to change your mind.

.

Marilyn C · Sep 13, 2019

A repeat of what I said -

Then as to the details of our inheritance in Rev. 3: 12 we see we have -

1. The name/authority of God, which includes the earth.
2. The name/authority of the city, where we can visit.
3. The name/authority of the Lord`s new name/authority in the highest.

nolidad · Sep 13, 2019

Douggg said:
What is a thousand years away? It is talking about Satan's demise. The prophecies in Ezekiel 28 regarding the man of sin, and Satan, takes place during the 7 years.

Ezekiel 28: 1-11 Is the actual prince of Tyre

verses 12-19 is Satan and no tthe man of sin.

nolidad · Sep 13, 2019

Douggg said:
the "italian woman" is something you came up with. I am saying the person, no matter where he is born, his mother will be a Jew. She may be an Italian Jew, I don't know.

No that is a probable conclusion from Scripture:

Dan. 9:
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There is nothing in SCripture that demands the antichrist be a Jew. But plenty of evidence He is a gentile!

He enters into a 7 year covenant with Jews- He is a political world ruler from elsewhere. He is not a king of Israel nor a proclaimed Messiah of Israel.

He is the 11th horn that arises out of the ten horns and conquers 3 of the ten and become a world ruler! Her makes his world capital Babylon!

nolidad · Sep 13, 2019

Douggg said:
You are not putting anything in order, nor are making any connections.

On one hand you say the Daniel 9 confirming of the covenant is treaty guaranteeing the security for Israel. Then you allude to Gog/Magog, led by Russia. Then you mentions a covenant that Israel make with death (and hell) in Isaiah, which you say is a land for peace covenant.

And you leave out why people will be say peace and safety, right before the beginning of the Day of the Lord catches them off guard..
___________________________________________________

In your view, which comes first - Gog/Magog or the confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 ?

Well I am not making any connections, because we cannot say with certainty many of the events that lead to fulfilments of future prophesies. So I list possibilities.

The Gog/Magog Invasion has to take place at least 31/2 years before the antichrist signs a treaty with Israel. Why? Because Israel burns th eweapons of war for 7 years and we know that in the middle of the 7 years, Israel has to flee for their lives to Petra!

Douggg · Sep 13, 2019

nolidad said:
There is nothing in SCripture that demands the antichrist be a Jew. But plenty of evidence He is a gentile!

What you are missing is the person will be both the King of Israel (necessitating that he will be Jew) perceived messiah, and also the King of the Roman Empire end times.

It is not that he is a gentile, but will be King of a gentile Kingdom and King of Israel for awhile.

nolidad said:
He is the 11th horn that arises out of the ten horns and conquers 3 of the ten and become a world ruler! Her makes his world capital Babylon!

That's not going to happen, nolidad. Are you talking about Baghdad? Or a whole new city built?

The Difference between Daniel`s 70th Week and the Tribulation.

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