Paul's understanding of Clean and Unclean food

DamianWarS

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Today, that word means, "any believer who is not Jewish." So, using the historical definition, which is in line with the underlying Hebrew or Greek, a gentile Christian is an oxy-moron.

gentile is from Latin roots, not Hebrew or Greek. It is used to translate the greek "ethnikos" As you can probably infer the English word "ethnic" is rooted from this greek word and this more carries a proper meaning of "national or foreign" which is closer to the English ethnic. Biblical use is unique for a non-Jew or pagan, hethen, etc and is essentially a term of an outsider from the perspective of Judaism.

it's not really an issue either way as it's a word used only in the gospels pre-Pentecost so out of context. the epistles don't use "ethnikos" they use "hellen" which is the word for an ethnic Greek or wide enough for all Greek-speaking. It is used similarly as "ethnikos" or essentially a non-Jew but I would argue not uniquely as a pagan/heathen as both groups are used to give glory to God and are found to be followers of Christ.

Gentile is not a fair translation as it carries a lot of other baggage with the word and forces these polarized meanings like what you're doing. In context "Greek" is better in the epistles because that's what it actually means nor is it immediately derogatory like Gentile is. So where do we fit? Assuming we're not talking about ethnic Jews then to a Jew we are a Gentile (and always will be) but in context of Christendom, we fit better with "Greek" if we are to force one term or the other. The NT is written in a Roman vacuum so it's terminology is going to be limiting when taken out of the vacuum especially when addressing ethnic terms.

I like how the great commission puts it Matthew 28:19 says "panta ta ethne" or "all the nations", or better yet in Mark 16:15 "pase te ktisei" "all the creation" Who are we? whatever it is we fit in there somewhere.
 
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Ken Rank

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gentile is from Latin roots, not Hebrew or Greek. It is used to translate the greek "ethnikos"
English translations early on used the word gentile, and at that time, it meant "pagan, heathen, not a Jew or Christian." It also can be defined as, "anyone from the nations not Israel." In other words, a gentile is NOT PART OF GOD'S FAMILY. A gentile CAN become a part of God's family... but when he does, he ceases being a gentile. That is why Paul said, "You WERE a gentile in the flesh" and "WERE an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel" but "are NOW a fellow citizen."

Blessings.
Ken
 
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Andrewn

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to a Jew we are a Gentile (and always will be)
'Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring'

Rabbi Dov Lior says Jewish Law prohibits sterile couples from conceiving using non-Jew's sperm, as it causes adverse traits. On subject of single mothers he says, 'Child cannot be 100% normal'
Kobi Nahshoni|Published: 01.12.11 , 08:30

'Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring'

Biblical use is unique for a non-Jew or pagan, hethen, etc and is essentially a term of an outsider from the perspective of Judaism. it's not really an issue either way as it's a word used only in the gospels pre-Pentecost so out of context.
The book of Acts and the Epistles do use the word "ethnos" extensively.
 
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Andrewn

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English translations early on used the word gentile, and at that time, it meant "pagan, heathen, not a Jew or Christian." It also can be defined as, "anyone from the nations not Israel."
The word Gentile refers to a "foreigner" or "outsider." From a Jewish perspective it means "not Jewish." From a Roman perspective, it means "not a Roman citizen." From a Mormon perspective, it meant "not LDS."

The following article describes Jewish perspective in fascinating detail:
Gentile - Wikipedia

In other words, a gentile is NOT PART OF GOD'S FAMILY. A gentile CAN become a part of God's family... but when he does, he ceases being a gentile.
From God's perspective and Paul's perspective, you're right. And we Christians should stop referring to ourselves as Gentiles.
 
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Ken Rank

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The word Gentile refers to a "foreigner" or "outsider." From a Jewish perspective it means "not Jewish." From a Roman perspective, it means "not a Roman citizen." From a Mormon perspective, it meant "not LDS."

The following article describes Jewish perspective in fascinating detail:
Gentile - Wikipedia
Modern definitions. Again, when we take goy or ethnos (nations, pagan, heathen) into English, when we first translated into our language, the word gentile meant exactly what goy and ethnos meant, that is why the translators chose that word. So, that word stays in our bibles but over time our CULTURE changes to the degree that the definition changes. Where it once meant anyone who isn't Israel (or anyone who isn't Jew or Christian, a pagan) it now means, "a believer who isn't Jewish" as we use it in Christianity today. But that is TODAY, not historically. What do we want... to draw close to God's will or allow modern definitions to define Him?

From God's perspective and Paul's perspective, you're right. And we Christians should stop referring to ourselves as Gentiles.
And that is really all I was getting at. So, when it comes to commandments that were given to Israel and called everlasting, we have to prayerfully decide whether or not they apply to us today if we are now part of God's family, Israel.
 
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BobRyan

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To the Jews.

In Gen 6-7 we see that "mankind" had the distinction between clean vs unclean.. centuries before any "Jews". has to do with the fact that God made animals and mankind long before there was even one Jew.
 
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Lost4words

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In Gen 6-7 we see that "mankind" had the distinction between clean vs unclean.. centuries before any "Jews". has to do with the fact that God made animals and mankind long before there was even one Jew.

Still for the Jews ;)
 
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BobRyan

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Jews were Gods chosen people. The old Covenant was for them.


There are no Jews before Abraham... in fact there is no "Israel" before Jacob. Genesis 6 and 7 is "mankind"..

At the time of Noah there are no priests, no temple, no Levites, no holy land, no Jerusalem, no annual feasts, no distinction between the Bible of God vs the pagan except that the New Covenant .. the "One Gospel" had the Law of God written on the heart (as Jeremiah reminds us in Jer 31:31-33 regarding the New Covenant).
 
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Lost4words

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There are no Jews before Abraham... in fact there is no "Israel" before Jacob. Genesis 6 and 7 is "mankind"..

At the time of Noah there are no priests, no temple, no Levites, no holy land, no Jerusalem, no annual feasts, no distinction between the Bible of God vs the pagan except that the New Covenant .. the "One Gospel" had the Law of God written on the heart (as Jeremiah reminds us in Jer 31:31-33 regarding the New Covenant).

Still, it was for the Jews. They were the chosen people.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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BobRyan

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Jews were Gods chosen people. The old Covenant was for them.


There are no Jews before Abraham... in fact there is no "Israel" before Jacob. Genesis 6 and 7 is "mankind"..

At the time of Noah there are no priests, no temple, no Levites, no holy land, no Jerusalem, no annual feasts, no distinction between the Bible of God vs the pagan except that the New Covenant .. the "One Gospel" had the Law of God written on the heart (as Jeremiah reminds us in Jer 31:31-33 regarding the New Covenant).

Still, it was for the Jews. They were the chosen people.

can't be something for people who did not exist

There were no "Jews" following Noah around

1 Cor 10 says all of the OT is for Christians.
 
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Bob S

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I do know one thing about hogs according to history. They were among the first animals to be domesticated. Why were hogs domesticated you might ask? They didn't raise them for their skins to then make footballs. They were/are good eatin, especially in a bacon and tomato sandwich. The reason, today, why farmers raise livestock is to provide food for man and yes for the manufacture of pigskin footballs. Since God told the Israelites not to touch anything unclean are Messianics, SDAs and those that share their views not allowed to play football or wear leather that might be made of pigskin?

The reason Noah knew clean from unclean had to do with the sacrificial system, not because he couldn't eat certain ones. God told him to eat anything he wanted after the flood. Someone wrote a post about poison ivy berries, Noah didn't have to worry about them because the flood destroyed land plants.
 
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Many times when a discussion is had about keeping the laws of Kosher it is pointed out that Paul taught that you could eat anything you wanted.

Let's take a look at some quotes by Paul and where he got them from.

Romans 14 the beginning of this chapter tells us what the subject is about. Some at the time were practicing Vegetarianism. It has been passed down that James, the brother of Yeshua/Jesus was a vegetarian as well as some of the other Apostles.

Paul starts off by saying:

1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.
2 For one man has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him.​

I was about certain congregational members judging on wither or not another member was vegetarian.

Further down in his letter he says:

13 Therefore let us stop judging one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.

So what is this stumbling block?

20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to let his eating be a stumbling block.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything to cause your brother to stumble.

Many occasions the word translated into English 'meat' means food in general. However in this case above that word actually means the way we use it today, 'flesh' or pieces of flesh, think Steaks, etc.

So this was about eating meat and drinking wine or eating vegetables and nuts, seeds, fruits and not imbibing.

Then you might say, what about this part?

14 I am convinced and fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
15 If your brother is distressed by what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother, for whom Christ died.

The word translated there to unclean is koinon.

This is not 'unclean' as in the Torah, but it means common, as in unholy, not set apart.

When Peter had his vision he responded that in all his life he had not ever eaten anything common or unclean. Koinon or akthartos. He later told Cornelius:

"You know how it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or to come unto one of another nation; but God has showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean"​


Or a better way to avoid misunderstanding.

but God has showed me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean"



akthartos - means unclean, impure even demonic, like the man in the graves was considered unclean.

Paul uses this in 2 Corinthians 6:17

…16 What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.” 17“Therefore come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”​

Paul gets this from Isaiah 52:11

11 Depart, depart, go out from there, Touch nothing unclean;
Go out of the midst of her, purify yourselves,
You who carry the vessels of the Lord.

Meat that had be offered to idols was often later sold on the market, so if someone was at a community meal and couldn't verity how the meat had been slaughtered, then they might be of the disputable opinion that only vegetables should be eaten rather than risk eating meat that have been offered to idols. They were passing judgement on those who were eating everything at the meal and were in turn being resented, and pass exactly this sort of judging each other over opinions that Paul was seeking to quell in Romans 14. This had nothing to do with vegetarianism or with eating unclean animals.
 
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