Did we miss our turn somewhere?

jamesbond007 · Sep 10, 2019

martymonster said:
So basically, you're saying that you're picking and choosing what to interpret as literal and not literal. I'd love to know how you think you have the authority to do that?

None of it is literal, and that is not what buying selling is, and not what the mark of the beast is.

I didn't say that. You did and you're using it to disagree with what the mark of the beast could refer to in our future. The mark of the beast is related to Antichrist. It is explained in Revelation chapter 13. I am referring to "16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name." Revelation 13:16-17

This is an example of the types of symbols or signs that we may have missed in the past.

ETA: Closer than I thought. https://nypost.com/2019/07/14/swedish-people-are-getting-chip-implants-to-replace-cash-credit-cards/ I suppose you can argue the right/left hand.

Rebecca4Christ · Sep 10, 2019

martymonster said:
Every person could visit the ocean at least once in their lives, and say that they've seen it, but that doesn't mean they all saw the ocean at the same time.

So you are saying this repeats until all eyes have seen him? All eyes of the past,present, and future?

jamesbond007 · Sep 10, 2019

nolidad said:
Well they haven't been fulfilled yet! We have not seen the Gog invasion, the one world govt., the ten kings, the rise of the antichrist, nor any part of teh 70th week. It is still awaiting to happen.

69 of the 70th weeks have come to pass already. In Daniel 9:24, many scholars interpret it as seventy 'sevens' which refers to 490 years. It goes on to divide the 490 years into 49 years, 434 years, and 7 years. The final “week” of 7 years is further divided in half. The first 49 years was to rebuild Jerusalem. The second 434 years passed and then came the first coming of our Lord. The last is still to be fulfilled. Thus, it's easy to have missed what has been fulfilled already.

What are the seventy weeks of Daniel? | GotQuestions.org

Both Revelation and Daniel are not easy to understand and I admit I haven't thought about that which have been fulfilled. Before this thread, I just understood most of the little ones have been completed except for the ones like 70 AD, the first coming of Jesus (not related to the 70 weeks) and others.

Dave L · Sep 10, 2019

jamesbond007 said:
69 of the 70th weeks have come to pass already. In Daniel 9:24, many scholars interpret it as seventy 'sevens' which refers to 490 years. It goes on to divide the 490 years into 49 years, 434 years, and 7 years. The final “week” of 7 years is further divided in half. The first 49 years was to rebuild Jerusalem. The second 434 years passed and then came the first coming of our Lord. The last is still to be fulfilled. Thus, it's easy to have missed what has been fulfilled already.

What are the seventy weeks of Daniel? | GotQuestions.org

Both Revelation and Daniel are not easy to understand and I admit I haven't thought about that which have been fulfilled. Before this thread, I just understood most of the little ones have been completed except for the ones like 70 AD, the first coming of Jesus (not related to the 70 weeks) and others.

This idea does not come from scripture. It is a theory based of what would happen if we were to insert a gap of an untold number of years between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks? And turn Jesus into Antichrist? But no such gap exists in scripture. And Jesus, not Antichrist fulfilled the 70th week causing the animal sacrifice to cease with his death on the cross.

jamesbond007 · Sep 10, 2019

Dave L said:
This idea does not come from scripture. It is a theory based of what would happen if we were to insert a gap of an untold number of years between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks? And turn Jesus into Antichrist? But no such gap exists in scripture. And Jesus, not Antichrist fulfilled the 70th week causing the animal sacrifice to cease with his death on the cross.

Post #103 was to explain to nolidad that 69 weeks had already been fulfilled. He didn't think any of it has happened yet.

I didn't explain the 70th week correctly. 'The final “week” of 7 years is further divided in half. Verse 25 says, “From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’” Seven “sevens” is 49 years, and sixty-two “sevens” is another 434 years:

49 years + 434 years = 483 years.' IOW, the gap is 483 years. This is what is called the tribulation period and has a separate section in CF for it. It's not Jesus who becomes the Antichrist, but the coming of the Antichrist.

I'll let the video explain because I don't understand it all when they start mentioning the first 7 of the covenant and 3.5 years.

Dave L · Sep 10, 2019

jamesbond007 said:
Post #103 was to explain to nolidad that 69 weeks had already been fulfilled. He didn't think any of it has happened yet.

I didn't explain the 70th week correctly. 'The final “week” of 7 years is further divided in half. Verse 25 says, “From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’” Seven “sevens” is 49 years, and sixty-two “sevens” is another 434 years:

49 years + 434 years = 483 years.' IOW, the gap is 483 yeares. This is what is called the tribulation period and has a separate section in CF for it. It's not Jesus who becomes the Antichrist, but the coming of the Antichrist.

I'll let the video explain because I don't understand it all when they start mentioning the first 7 of the covenant and 3.5 years.

Scripture does not call for a gap. It is pure fiction to support a wild theory about the end times.

martymonster · Sep 10, 2019

jamesbond007 said:
View attachment 262896

I didn't say that. You did and you're using it to disagree with what the mark of the beast could refer to in our future. The mark of the beast is related to Antichrist. It is explained in Revelation chapter 13. I am referring to "16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name." Revelation 13:16-17

This is an example of the types of symbols or signs that we may have missed in the past.

ETA: Closer than I thought. https://nypost.com/2019/07/14/swedish-people-are-getting-chip-implants-to-replace-cash-credit-cards/ I suppose you can argue the right/left hand.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Care to explain, how comparing physical things is actually comparing spiritual with spiritual?

martymonster · Sep 10, 2019

Rebecca4Christ said:
So you are saying this repeats until all eyes have seen him? All eyes of the past,present, and future?

I'm saying that he is speaking to every man, woman and child that has ever lived, and every word will apply to them. These are spiritual events that will happen in the life of every person who has ever lived. Firstly for God's elect, then for the rest of humanity.

Every eye, means every eye....not just the eyes of those that happen to be alive when he physically returns.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Rebecca4Christ · Sep 10, 2019

martymonster said:
None of it is literal, and that is not what buying selling is, and not what the mark of the beast is.

Rebecca4Christ · Sep 10, 2019

So what is it?

nolidad · Sep 10, 2019

Dave L said:
Actually, Paul calls him the man of sin. He is only recognized as Antichrist by the fruits he bears.

Yep that is one of his titles. But He is antichrist before we recognize him as such! As Satans son he is endowed with miraculous abilities as shown in Thess. and Revelation.

nolidad · Sep 10, 2019

jamesbond007 said:
69 of the 70th weeks have come to pass already. In Daniel 9:24, many scholars interpret it as seventy 'sevens' which refers to 490 years. It goes on to divide the 490 years into 49 years, 434 years, and 7 years. The final “week” of 7 years is further divided in half. The first 49 years was to rebuild Jerusalem. The second 434 years passed and then came the first coming of our Lord. The last is still to be fulfilled. Thus, it's easy to have missed what has been fulfilled already.

What are the seventy weeks of Daniel? | GotQuestions.org

Both Revelation and Daniel are not easy to understand and I admit I haven't thought about that which have been fulfilled. Before this thread, I just understood most of the little ones have been completed except for the ones like 70 AD, the first coming of Jesus (not related to the 70 weeks) and others.

Agreed. Believe it or not they are not that hard to understand if you have some help.

Neogaia777 · Sep 10, 2019

nolidad said:
Yep that is one of his titles. But He is antichrist before we recognize him as such! As Satans son he is endowed with miraculous abilities as shown in Thess. and Revelation.

But, one of the sure fire indicators is that He/they deny that Jesus even came in the flesh, or IOW's was not a real person that actually even existed back in the times that the Bible says He did, etc... And that means denying Him "all the way around" (The Bible or the people in it, in especially the NT, the miraculous works that He did, etc, so on and so forth) as they will deny that He was even a real person that actually existed, and I think it even says that they deny both the Father and The Son, I think... They must have to come up with some kind of supposed, and maybe some pretty convincing, evidence of some kind to back that up in order to deceive most of the masses, etc... But He will proclaim himself as God also, etc... But deny and deceive most of the masses into believing in Jesus or the True God/God's (Father and Son) also...

Don't quite know how he is going to do that, but, it's what scripture says...

With this move toward humanism and atheism and secularism though, who knows...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

martymonster · Sep 10, 2019

Rebecca4Christ said:
So what is it?

It just means that you were born a beast, and you have not departed from it. You have the works of a beast, and you think like a beast, because you are a beast.

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

People get confused, because the see the scriptures talking about "a beast" and they think that means that it is one particular person, but the reason God speaks that way, is because he is addressing you, personally. Our God is a very personal God.

jamesbond007 · Sep 10, 2019

Dave L said:
Scripture does not call for a gap. It is pure fiction to support a wild theory about the end times.

Scripture states, "
24 i“Seventy weeks3 are decreed about your people and jyour holy city, to finish kthe transgression, to put an end to sin, land to atone for iniquity, mto bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and nto anoint a most holy place.4 25 oKnow therefore and understand that pfrom the going out of the word to restore and qbuild Jerusalem to the coming of an ranointed one, a sprince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again5 with squares and moat, tbut in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall ube cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come vshall destroy the city and the sanctuary. wIts6 end shall come with a flood, xand to the end there shall be war. yDesolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,7 and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. zAnd on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until athe decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel 9:24-27

This is a difficult verse, but my understanding is the gap comes after an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. This is supposed to be the crucifixion which happened in 30 AD. Thus, we are almost 2000 years into the gap now.

What about Jerusalem and Israel? Look at what's happened to it since that time. Some Jews believe Jesus is not the Messiah because all they got was war, death, destruction, and being displaced if they survived. Throughout its 3000+ years history, Jerusalem has been destroyed and rebuilt up to 40 times. When archaeologists first began excavating in the city, they were surprised to discover layer after layer of rubble, indicating that parts of Jerusalem had been destroyed at least 40 times. Watch from 22:04 until the Jewish people return to Israel to start the prophecies again.

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 10, 2019

Brian Mcnamee said:
I am glad that you are so confident that you can label others as false and robbing people but if you are wrong that measure you have used will be measured against you.

Yes, you have been robbed and are participating in robing the saints of a a scriptural vision for the future. That simple. Don't like being accused of that? To bad. Truth doesn't play nice. Didn't say your going to hell about it. Just saying your being played by Satan who wants to keep the prophecy about this present age of promise out of the hearts of God's people. Your focus is on that little strip of land in the midden east and one tribe. Gods focus is on all people and the whole world. The first chapter from the link you didn't read.

In Galatians 4 the Apostle declares: 21 Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a female slave, the other by a free woman. 23 But he who was of the female slave was born after the flesh; but he of the free woman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engenders to bondage, which is Hagar. 25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that bore not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has an husband. 28 Now we, brothers, as Isaac was, are the children of promise, 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what said the scripture? Cast out the female slave and her son: for the son of the female slave shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. 31 So then, brothers, we are not children of the female slave, but of the free. In this teaching the Apostle is clearly saying that the rituals and rites of the Mosaic law called the first covenant are symbolized by Hagar and the birth of Ishmael. He calls the mother of the children of the first covenant the physical city of Jerusalem. In the context of the entire chapter he is comparing the purely physical descendant's of Abraham to the people of faith, be they Jew or Gentile. This article, Symbolism in Genesis Regarding the First and Second Covenant goes into this very deeply. The point of this is that he is quoting from one of the old Testament prophecies about the New Jerusalem to teach this; Isaiah 54. The article will go through it verse by verse to show the amazing accuracy of it as a prophecy.

(AKJV) Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren, you that did not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, you that did not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, said the LORD.
This is the verse Paul quotes. The way he is interpreting it is that the Mosaic Law and the physical city of Jerusalem were the married wife that bore many children. The people of faith though, few and for most of the history of ancient Israel persecuted and murdered by the faithless; these are the children of the desolate woman. However with the coming of the messiah the children of the desolate woman, in this case the children of the Jerusalem from above, the New Jerusalem, would bear more children than the earthly city would. The rest of the prophecy in Isaiah 54 will say more of this.
2 Enlarge the place of your tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations: spare not, lengthen your cords, and strengthen your stakes; 3 For you shall break forth on the right hand and on the left; and your descendants shall inherit the Nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. A truly amazing prophecy exhorting the faithful with the promise that lay ahead. That the people of faith soon to be of all nations will grow and expand. So much so that it will be said the descendant of Abraham, the Messiah, through them will inherit the nations. That the fruit of this will be prosperous civilizations. (The desolate cities will be inhabited.)
4 Fear not; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be you confounded; for you shall not be put to shame: for you shall forget the shame of your youth, and shall not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more. 5 For your Maker is your husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and your Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD has called you as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when you were refused, said your God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken you; but with great mercies will I gather you. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on you, said the LORD your Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah to me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with you, nor rebuke you. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, said the LORD that has mercy on you. Here are more references to the bride of Christ. The shame and the reproach of her youth and being forsaken is a reference to the tribulations the believers in ancient Israel faced at the hands of the Gentiles because of the wickedness of the majority of its citizens and its leaders. Due to this they were not recipients of any of the earthly promises of God made to Abraham and in many other places in the scripture. It seemed as if they were forsaken by God and left to the whims of the wicked. It mattered not how they lived their lives before the Lord. They reaped whatever the despots who ran the world sowed. This certainly did not change in New Testament times and for many a century beyond that. Yet in the next verses we have a promise of a day when that would not be so.
11 O you afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay your stones with fair colors, and lay your foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make your windows of agates, and your gates of carbuncles, and all your borders of pleasant stones. 13 And all your children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness shall you be established: you shall be far from oppression; for you shall not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near you. 15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whoever shall gather together against you shall fall for your sake. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, said the LORD. The first few verses unmistakably use the same type of illustrations as the New Jerusalem in Revelation. Verse 14 clearly states that the way these children of the heavenly city will be established in the earth is because of righteousness. That the terror and the oppression their ancestors lived under and those peoples in the nations who do not know righteousness are subjugated to will not be their story, their testimony. Verse 15 points out that these promises will come to pass in a world where evil exists because the wicked seek to conquer the people of faith. It simply shows that unlike the ancient world where the wicked reigned in perpetuity. In this one with the Lords help, the righteous will come out on top.

It must be pointed out that these specific promises of freedom from oppression. terror and fear itself. Promises that say it will not come near to you have been fulfilled in the lives of many generations of believers in North America and some nations in Northern Europe. These promises were directly fulfilled because very significant minorities and sometimes even small majorities of believers of the population of a nation; plus significant minorities of non believers in those nations adopted the righteousness of Biblical principle to guide their private and national affairs. All this came about when the Bible started to get into the hands of common men in their own languages starting right after the Roman empire fell in 1453 AD. The history of this also shows the path forward. Preaching the Gospel with power, and the putting of the Scripture in the hands of whoever wants them are the foundation. Understanding that those who are pioneers in this effort where the Gospel is relatively new typically face cruel persecutions. This history shows that national and international revivals are a necessity. It also shows that when the time is right based on the righteousness of the people through that Gospel that wars may be necessary. Certainly political ones but at times shooting wars. It is clear by looking at this history that limited and good government that administers justice by physical force is ordained by God and is to be established and maintained by righteous peoples; that this must be fought for and continuously watched over through faith in the promises of Gods Word. It also shows that the wicked will directly attack the righteousness of God, Gods saints and the scripture in an effort to make the people immoral and therefore easily to manipulate. This in their quest to rule over the nations. Jesus's parables about the Kingdom of God that was prophesied to fill the world goes over this process in very enlightening detail. The article about them is a must read for whoever really wants to understand the nature of the Government of God and his plans for the earth. Here is the Link: The Parables of the Government of God.

jamesbond007 · Sep 10, 2019

Before I lose my train of thought, I wanted to mention the answer to the OP's question is we lost track of what happened to Jerusalem and Israel since the crucifixion. We had 70 AD, but there was a lot more death, destruction, and displacement of its people since that time. It got so bad the Biblical prophecies were placed on hold. Watch the video in post #115. Now they are back on track again, but Israel still has its enemies with possibly weapons of mass destruction. I believe the only way the US will go back to the ME for war is because of oil and WMDs, but who knows?

The other thing I learned through this thread is more personal. There was a debate between William Lane Craig and atheist professor Lawrence Krauss, who wrote A Universe from Nothing, some years ago and one of the questions asked of Krauss was what would it take for you to believe in God? His answer was if the stars somehow rearranged themselves to say "I'm here," or something to that effect, then he would have to reassess. Less that a week after the debate, a regular atheist, who had watched the debate, stated that that was not good enough. He said that the people in the opposite hemisphere would not see. His claim was every atheist, past, present, and future would have to be convinced that God existed. I think he made the front page of one of the SF - Bay Area papers with his comments. That's a tall order indeed, so I thought that going to hell in the afterlife or pain and suffering would be the great persuader. What I learned from this thread is that every eye will see the end times and the second coming of Jesus. The every eye will see shows that this has already been prophecized.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 10, 2019

I did read your link and your link is a meandering private interpretation. The fact that now many have been led to the same conclusion through the same maze is ok and not a proof of your ideas. The nation of Israel and the rest of the world have specific focus and destinies that are intertwined. I gave a short case for futurism which you ignored and then accused me of not reading your link. I did try to lay some common ground as far as the new covenant goes anyways. The eschatological path is what it is as Isaiah 61 speaks of what is accomplished after the acceptable year of the LORD and achieved in the day of vengeance of our God.
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.

In the day of Gods vengeance which is after the acceptable year of the LORD the distinction between Jew and Gentile is still there. This before and after picture is repeated in many places such as LUKE 1 which is a prophecy of Jesus. Has Jesus delivered Israel from their enemies? Are they worshiping without fear and in holiness assured forevermore? This is what my Bible says will happen and many passages that shows the kingdom that comes and has no end that covers the earth comes when Jerusalem is being over run and the Jews persecuted. These same passages show a continuation of life on earth after the kingdom has come. The 1000 years is certain Satan has yet be bound and the righteousness that springs forth will continue on after the 1000 years is over when the new Jerusalem comes down.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 10, 2019

Dave L said:
This idea does not come from scripture. It is a theory based of what would happen if we were to insert a gap of an untold number of years between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks? And turn Jesus into Antichrist? But no such gap exists in scripture. And Jesus, not Antichrist fulfilled the 70th week causing the animal sacrifice to cease with his death on the cross.

Hi Dave if there is no gap what is Hosea 3 talking about? 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
Note the return of the kingdom occurs when the sacrifice returns after many years without. So this does not fit 70AD. The gap idea has the abomination of desolation as future in the middle of the week. From the time the sacrifice is taken away their are 42 months to go. To go until what? It seems the 2 Thes 2 says the end won't occur until the man of sin is revealed with lying signs and wonders. He stands in the temple and exalts himself as god. Rev gives 42 month for the beast to reign and he and this guy in 2 Thess are destroyed by the coming of the LORD. So modern Israel has gone many days without a sacrifice and the return of the sacrifice could serve as the stage for the man of sin in 2 thess also the beast in Rev 13. This fits. If you maintain the LORD is already king over the earth it does not match Zech 14 Dan 7 show the kingdom comes when Israel is saved from utter destruction by the coming of the LORD. 70AD Israel was destroyed not saved so again an apparent contradiction to your view. If you will to dispute please resolve these contradiction I have pointed out rather than retracing covenant theology roots.

joshua 1 9 · Sep 11, 2019

sdowney717 said:
And the destruction is sudden

Yes the destruction from the recent storm was sudden. So people are without excuse. Today is 911 and the destruction of the twin towers 18 years ago was sudden. We are told that the events at the end of this age are going to be just as sudden and just as unexpected.

Did we miss our turn somewhere?

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