Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

BABerean2 · Sep 10, 2019

keras said:
I don't deny that the Jews are also Israelites, but the main group of Israelites; the Northern ten tribes, remain scattered among the nations, awaiting their redemption and restoration.

Are you promoting the myth of British Israelism?

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Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

jgr said:
He chose faith and obedience in the first place. (Genesis 22:18; Hebrews 11:8)

Bloodline was and is irrelevant. (Genesis 17:12)

Was it not because of the faith and obedience of their forefathers that the Jewish bloodline was chosen to be a nation of God in the first place?

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

jgr said:
Did Caiaphas et al crucify Him only in their hearts?

Add the thoughts and actions of murderers. (Zechariah 12:10; Mark 11:18; Acts 3:15)

Murder starts from within before it is manifested in the outward action, but everyone at some point in their lives has committed murder in their hearts. But do they who reject Christ even now crucify Him over again in their hearts?

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

....................................................

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
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They looked upon Him whom they had pierced, but there was no remorse or national day of mourning. The only ones who mourned were those who followed Him. Further fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 is yet to come.

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

jgr said:
Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Caiaphas et al were of the house of David, were inhabitants of Jerusalem, and pierced the Son of God.

Dispensationally, they qualify the most closely as fulfillments of Zechariah 12:10.

Dispensationally, they'll be there then.

The national day of remorse foretold to follow in that same verse did not happen then. It is a further fulfillment yet to come of which Caiaphas clearly will not be a part. He is not alive anymore.

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

jgr said:
Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

All things will be fulfilled when the New Heavens and Earth are created and the New Jerusalem descends upon the earth.

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

BABerean2 said:
At one time my wife and I supported the ministry of Pastor John Hagee.

We stopped because of his claims supporting Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.

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Did you verify these claims? If they are true, not all those who are called dispensationalists, while believing that God will fulfill all that He has said regarding Israel and its people, will go so far as to say that the Jewish people do not need Jesus in order to get saved. In fact we stand on those passages that foretell the salvation of the nation through Christ. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

The so-called dispensationalist camp is a fairly broad base and therefore, eschatological debate abounds amongst even them.

You may not have heard of some of these ministries but ministries which ascribe to what you call dispensationalism such as Olive Tree Views, Understand The Times, The Berean Call, Pre-Trib.org, and Jews for Jesus, do not ascribe to the Dual Covenant theology you claim I support. In fact, they would likely condemn such extreme positions.

Unfortunately, you have been adhering to extremes on the other side of the debate. At the very least, the sites I linked to might help you to better understand the doctrine I've been defending if you ever wish to take the time to visit them.

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

keras said:
Your idea that there is now no distinction between Jews and Israel, cannot be correct as this means that Ezekiel 37 happened after the Babylonian captivity. Simply not credible!
Only a few thousand Jews came back to Jerusalem then, neither then or now are those people a vast multitude, as Israel was prophesied to become.
The Jews have usurped the name of Israel, in fact it was the American administration of 1948, that insisted they call the new Jewish nation; Israel. David ben Gurion was about to declare it the nation of Judah, as it is the Jewish homeland. Judah has returned, but Israel not yet.

The fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 did commence after the Babylonian captivity because it was given during the Babylonian captivity. Not all of Ezekiel 37 has yet been fulfilled, but the foretold re-establishment of Israel as a nation and their reunification as one nation has been and the notion that the Jews had usurped the name of Israel is false because the name of Israel has been applied as much to Judah as it has been to the rest of the tribes ever since the end of the Babylonian exile which serves as evidence of their reunification.

If members of the rest of the tribes had not yet returned to their homeland, it would not make sense for the prophet Malachi, Jesus, or the Apostles to address the people of the land as Israel if only the members of Judah had returned for to address the people of the land is to say that members of every tribe are present there.

keras said:
The point is; the whole of the prophesies, OT and NT, apply to ALL the Israelites and to say they are fulfilled in only Judah, is quite wrong and a contradiction of scripture.

No one is saying that the prophecies are in application to Judah alone.

keras said:
It is we Christian followers of Jesus, who are the inheritors of God's Promises to all Israel, we are the Overcomers for God, His Victorious ones and all of the Promised Land will be our possession. Isaiah 62:1-5 John sees us there in Revelation 7:9. BEFORE Jesus Returns.

Isaiah 62:1-5 foretells Israel's eventual exaltation above all other nations and what John saw in Revelation 7:9 had nothing to do with land possession. What he did see was a multitude of saints who had died during the tribulation and were now standing before Christ and worshipping Him.

BABerean2 · Sep 10, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Did you verify these claims? If they are true, not all those who are called dispensationalists, while believing that God will fulfill all that He has said regarding Israel and its people, will go so far as to say that the Jewish people do not need Jesus in order to get saved. In fact we stand on those passages that foretell the salvation of the nation through Christ. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

Yes. He was quoted in the Houston Chronicle newspaper saying that modern Jews do not need Christ, because they are under a different covenant with God. He also said witnessing to Jews is a waste of time.

Why are you re-defining the word "remnant", into "nation" in Romans 9:27, in order to make your form of Dual Covenant Theology work?

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BABerean2 · Sep 10, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
but there was no remorse or national day of mourning.

You are ignoring the text below which reveals the individual repentance and faith, which occurred on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" accepted the promise of the New Covenant.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Nobody gets into the New Covenant outside of individual repentance, and faith.
It does not occur based on race, or national boundaries.

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Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Yes. He was quoted in the Houston Chronicle newspaper saying that modern Jews do not need Christ, because they are under a different covenant with God. He also said witnessing to Jews is a waste of time.

Why are you re-defining the word "remnant", into "nation" in Romans 9:27, in order to make your form of Dual Covenant Theology work?

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Nothing is being re-defined. The context of Romans 9:27 is speaking in the context of the nation.

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You are ignoring the text below which reveals the individual repentance and faith, which occurred on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" accepted the promise of the New Covenant.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
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Individuals out of a nation are not representative of the heart and attitude of the nation and people as a whole. The Jews who did come to Christ in the days of the Apostles and are still coming to Christ today are but a small fraction of the nation of Israel. What Zechariah is foretelling is that remorse going beyond just a number of individuals and being felt by the entire nation as a whole.

jgr · Sep 10, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Was it not because of the faith and obedience of their forefathers that the Jewish bloodline was chosen to be a nation of God in the first place?

God slew Jewish bloodline Israelites by the thousands for unfaithfulness and disobedience.

The faith and obedience of their forefathers did not save them.

Their Jewish bloodline did not save them.

Only personal faith and obedience saved them and identified them as chosen.

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

jgr said:
God slew Jewish bloodline Israelites by the thousands for unfaithfulness and disobedience.

The faith and obedience of their forefathers did not save them.

Their Jewish bloodline did not save them.

Only personal faith and obedience saved them.

But they were not all destroyed. He has still kept them alive as a people and has re-established them as a nation.

jgr · Sep 10, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
But they were not all destroyed. He has still kept them alive as a people and has re-established them as a nation.

In His mercy He has kept the entire human race alive in all of their nations.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

claninja · Sep 10, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
But the Spirit never contradicts previous revelation.

I agree

Contenders Edge said:
It is there by implication (Rom. 11:12) and if the Jews could receive their land back upon repentance, then their possession of the promised land was never lost to them on a permanent basis. They possess it once again.

There is no implication that it refers to land restoration. There is only your subjective interpretation that it does.

Paul tell us exactly what their acceptance is: life from the dead. It does not mention land restoration.

Romans 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Romans 11 does not clearly or explicitly mention land restoration. As the OP is about land restoration being found in the new covenant it would be profitable for you to show scriptures that actually mention land restoration in the NT.

Contenders Edge said:
Peter is addressing the Church. Not a nation.

What did Peter call his audience? I'll highlight it for you

1 peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession,

Contenders Edge said:
Romans 11:12 by implication.

Romans 11:12 does not mention land restoration. That is your subjective interpretation of the passage.

Please provide 1 NT passage that clearly and explicitly mentions land restoration. If you can't I don't know why you are responding on this thread.

Contenders Edge said:
In order for there to be a fulfillment of prophecy, nations and peoples who had not been in existence beforehand would have to claim descent from Ephraim. So far, no such nation or people has come forth and Paul never called the Northern Kingdom Gentiles. It is just that he revealed that cited passage to extend beyond even the Northern Kingdom of Israel. If there was any connection between Israel and the Gentiles in Paul's exposition on that passage, he would have said so.

Ephraim was already mixing with the nations during the time of hosea
Hosea 7:8 Ephraim mixes with the nations; Ephraim is an unturned cake.

Ephraim was prophesied to become a fullness of nations
Genesis 48:19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.”

Paul applies a passage about the northern kingdom of israel in hosea 1 to the gentiles in romans 9:23-26, does he not?

Contenders Edge said:
They may have been hardened by God after their initial rejection of Christ and the Gospel message but the people hardened their own hearts which led to them rejecting Christ; hence the reason why Jesus lamented and grieved over the coming judgment to come upon Jerusalem that would result from their rejection of Him.

And the hardened hearts of part of Israel served a purpose: the crucifixion. And through the crucifixion, the riches and mercy of God went to the nations.

Contenders Edge said:
Even so, there remains a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles. As to what part of the inheritance the Gentiles living among the Israelites will share, we do not know.

According to Ezekiel's vision, the land is the inheritance. It is divided up between the tribes of Israel. The foreigner is to be treated as native born and is allotted inheritance (land) in whatever tribe they dwell. If one is treated as native born, there is no distinction one they are joined to Israel.

Ezekiel 47:21 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

Contenders Edge said:
That Genesis records the origins of circumcision and its purpose cannot be denied but there is no mention thereof in the passage you cited.

It literally mentions the word covenant in regards to circumcision, so I don't know what you are talking about.

Genesis 17:10 This is My covenant with you and your descendants after you, which you are to keep: Every male among you must be circumcised.

Contenders Edge said:
Mary, the mother of Jesus, is cousin to Elizabeth who is a descendant of Aaron. How can that be possible if the lines of Judah and Levi did not blend at some point?

If Jesus descended from levi, then no change in the law would need to occur. But Hebrews is very clear that Jesus did not descend from levit, thus the law was changed.

Hebrews 7:12-14 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, a tribe as to which Moses said nothing about priests.

Contenders Edge said:
While there is no denying that the book of Revelation contains symbolism, it is not all symbolic. The symbolism is generally explained and even if it is not explained, the context implies symbolism.
There is no evidence that the 144,000, the two witnesses, and the events involving the people of Israel and Jerusalem are symbolic. The context presents them as literal and in order for those events to take place in the literal, the Jews must undergo a degree of restoration. They already have thereby setting the stage for the rest of what pertains to the nation of Israel to take place.

I disagree.

So you believe Jesus will literally hold a sword in his mouth, spinning his head around to literally cut down the nations? No explanation is given in revelation for sword in Jesus' mouth, so it must be literal right?

Contenders Edge said:
I did just say that David would have a descendant who would forever sit on his throne. I also said that descendant is Christ.

My question was what did David speak about when he foresaw that God would place one of his descendants on his throne?

A.) You answered "that his descendant is Christ", which isn't found in scripture.

B.) My answer is " the resurrection of Christ", which is found in scripture
But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.

Contenders Edge said:
That Paul had to clarify what "Seed" he was talking about is evidence that the word he used was "sperma" which can be applied either in a singular or plural context. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance cites only "Sperma" being used in Galatians 3:16.

If he had used the "Spermati", he would not have had to give clarification because the Galatians would have already understood that he was referring to one seed and not many.

Sperma is the root word. Paul does not use the root word "sperma" in galatians 3:16, so I don't know where you are getting your information from.

From the following link provided we can see that Paul uses the singular form spermati in galatians 3:16 in regards to whom the promises were spoken to.
Galatians 3:16 Greek Text Analysis

Contenders Edge said:
John himself denied being Elijah in the literal sense despite being commissioned to be the forerunner of Christ at His first coming. I suppose he was not willing to accept it either.

Regardless of what John thought, we know he was because Jesus said so.

Contenders Edge said:
That being said, until nations arise who trace their roots back to Ephraim, we have no basis to declare that a multitude of nations have yet descended from Ephraim.

That would be impossible. There is not one person on earth who can trace their genealogy back 3,000 years.

Contenders Edge said:
The parable of Jesus was in relation to the great commission, the cited passage from Jeremiah was not.

Is the great commission related to the new covenant? The new covenant is found in the same passage as God sowing Israel with man and beast in Jeremiah.

Contenders Edge · Sep 10, 2019

jgr said:
In His mercy He has kept the entire human race alive in all of their nations.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But Israel is the only nation promised everlasting existence. (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26) No other nation has been given any such guarantee.

BABerean2 · Sep 10, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
What Zechariah is foretelling is that remorse going beyond just a number of individuals and being felt by the entire nation as a whole.

What you are describing is not found as a part of the New Covenant, which requires individual repentance, and faith. It is not like the Old Covenant with the nation of Israel.

It is a figment of the imagination for those promoting your form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race, or geographic location.

First you try to ignore the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 at Calvary, and on the Day of Pentecost spoken by two Apostles of Christ, and now you are re-writing the Bible to make your doctrine work.

Do you think you know more about what Zechariah meant in comparison to the Apostles John, and Peter?

.

jgr · Sep 10, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
But Israel is the only nation promised everlasting existence. (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26) No other nation has been given any such guarantee.

But only a remnant of the nation will be saved (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27).

Are the unsaved of the nation promised everlasting existence?

Other than in hell?

keras · Sep 10, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
But Israel is the only nation promised everlasting existence. (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26) No other nation has been given any such guarantee.

But the recipients of that Promise is not the citizens of existing Jewish State of Israel.
Read 1 John 5:1-5 for a clear explanation of who is a child of God, the Overcomers for Him and the Victorious ones; literally the Israelites of God.

Zephaniah 3:1-8 Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.

The people who ‘won’t take correction and trust their Creator’, is the Jewish State of Israel.

The Lord has judged and punished them before, their land laid waste and the towns deserted and He thought: surely now they will fear Me and will accept instruction, but they continue on in their evil deeds and they show no shame for it.
Judah has been punished and exiled before; by Babylon and by Rome. But as Ezekiel 21:14 tells us, there will be a third time.

Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, on the Day that I execute justice upon the nations, for I will pour out My fierce anger and the whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath.
This will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and fiery wrath against the nations. Prophesied in the Bible over 100 times. Habakkuk 3:12 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, +

Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall wipe away your shame for all the transgressions committed in you, for I shall remove all your proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain and those who never practise evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and nothing will disturb them.
This is the great Second Exodus of all of God’s people into all of the holy Land. Every faithful Christian: a vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24=26, Revelation 7:9

Zephaniah 3:9-10 They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. My worshippers, all the righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him. People from every race, nation and language, all the born again Christian people, will travel there to live, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, while the rest of the world is ruled by a One World Government. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12

Zephaniah 3:14-17 Daughter of Jerusalem; sing for joy! For the Lord has taken away your punishments and has cast out your enemies. Now the Lord is with you and you need never again fear disaster.

On the Day of the Lord’s wrath; This is the message for My people: Fear not, stand firm in your faith, your God will keep you safe and will rejoice over you.
Ref: REB, CJB, KJV. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.

This chapter of Zephaniah encapsulates the soon to happen end times story.
It tells how Jerusalem is denigrated by its ungodly inhabitants and will rejoice when they are gone. How those enemies of the Lord, the evil neighbors, Jeremiah 12:14, and all who reject the Salvation of Jesus, will be uprooted and gone, then the holy Land resettled by the Lord’s faithful believers. Ezekiel 34:11-31 tells it plainly.

Jeremiah 7:30-34 & 8:1-13 The people of Judah have done wrong, they worship idols and have no regard for their Creator....Therefore, the time is coming when I shall fill the valley of Topeth with their corpses.......All the survivor’s of this wicked race, from wherever I have banished them, would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14

...Judah is incurable in their waywardness......I listen, but I hear not one word of remorse ....My people do not know the Judgements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise and we have the Law of God, when your scribes and priests have falsified it? The wise are shamed and where is wisdom in them?

Therefore I will give their wives to others and give their land to new owners, for all of their prophets and priests are frauds....on My Day of reckoning, they will fall with a great crash. I shall surely consume them says the Lord and there will be no grapes on the vine, [Israel] and no figs on the fig tree. [Judah]

We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future. Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.

What is presented to you in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, as all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.

It is the prophetic parallel of ancient Israel, where Jesus led the people through the desert and how most of them refused to accept the Promise. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13

Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells how, once again, some of His people will revolt and rebel and they will not be allowed to enter the Land of Israel.

In today’s situation, we have many who have accepted the Gospel, but who have chosen their own beliefs about what God intends to do for His people and during this forthcoming test, 1 Peter 4:12, they may fail to stand firm in their trust that the Lord will protect them. This won’t lose their salvation, but it will be a serious disadvantage, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

As the great chapter of Isaiah 35:1-10, one of the many prophesies that describe the Lord’s faithful Christian people entering the holy Land, says: ...no one unclean will go there....The Lord’s people, set free: will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.

Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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