Ashes or Everlasting Fire

Shrewd Manager · Sep 10, 2019

brinny said:
Why did God send His only begotten son to die on the cross?

He gave His word.
That He will deliver on every promise He's ever made, including the Abrahamic covenant that all nations will be blessed, of which the restoration of S&G are but particulars.

brinny · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
He gave His word.
That He will deliver on every promise He's ever made, including the Abrahamic covenant that all nations will be blessed, of which the restoration of S&G are but particulars.

You did not answer the question.

Why did the living God send His only begotten Son here, to die on the cross, as it is written in John 3:16?

Shrewd Manager · Sep 10, 2019

brinny said:
Why did the living God send His only begotten Son here, to die on the cross, as it is written in John 3:16?

Something about perishables?? I give up, you tell me Brinny.

brinny · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Something about perishables?? I give up, you tell me Brinny.

John 3:16 is the pivotal verse that fulfills God's promise in the Garden of Eden when He told the serpent that its head would be crushed.

John 3:16 tells us how God is going to bring this to pass.

Here we have the living God, El Elyon, telling us what His "Remedy" is to the fall in the Garden of Eden:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ~John 3:16

On another note, what does God abhor (hate)?

Shrewd Manager · Sep 10, 2019

brinny said:
John 3:16 is the pivotal verse that fulfills God's promise in the Garden of Eden when He told the serpent that its head would be crushed.

John 3:16 tells us how God is going to bring this to pass.

Here we have the living God, El Elyon, telling us what His "Remedy" is to the fall in the Garden of Eden:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ~John 3:16

You seem to read a lot into John 3:16 or give it a particular emphasis that is not apparent on the face of the scripture.

How does John 3:17 strike you:

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

So S&G shall be saved through Christ, there is no other way, he is the exclusive saviour, he came to save the world, and he is the beginning and the end. Read Rev 21-22, it's all there.

Or are you saying Jesus will FAIL in his mission?

brinny said:
On another note, what does God abhor (hate)?

There are 6 or 7 things. Lack of faith in His word, His unbreakable covenant love for all His creation, is probably up there.

Your thoughts?

sdowney717 · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
You seem to read a lot into John 3:16 or give it a particular emphasis that is not apparent on the face of the scripture.

How does John 3:17 strike you:

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

So S&G shall be saved through Christ, there is no other way, he is the exclusive saviour, he came to save the world, and he is the beginning and the end. Read Rev 21-22, it's all there.

Or are you saying Jesus will FAIL in his mission?

There are 6 or 7 things. Lack of faith in His word, His unbreakable covenant love for all His creation, is probably up there.

Your thoughts?

Jesus said if they believe in Him they have eternal life, but then this,

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Condemnation means same as judgement, damnation, because they are evil.

brinny · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
You seem to read a lot into John 3:16 or give it a particular emphasis that is not apparent on the face of the scripture.

How does John 3:17 strike you:

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

So S&G shall be saved through Christ, there is no other way, he is the exclusive saviour, he came to save the world, and he is the beginning and the end. Read Rev 21-22, it's all there.

Or are you saying Jesus will FAIL in his mission?

There are 6 or 7 things. Lack of faith in His word, His unbreakable covenant love for all His creation, is probably up there.

Your thoughts?

Was it necessary for Jesus to die on the cross?

The seven things that God abhors:

"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." ~Pr 6:16-19

In addition these verses speak of "no remedy" for the wicked:

"A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy." ~Pr 6:12-15

Reminds me of the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah.

And then there's Lot's wife who loved the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah, and looked back, defying God's command.

And we all know what happened, right?

She became a pillar o' salt.

Shrewd Manager · Sep 10, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Jesus said if they believe in Him they have eternal life, but then this,

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Condemnation means same as judgement, damnation, because they are evil.

Well no, when do you hear a judge pronounce sentence to the effect "they chose to do the wrong thing because they love evil" which is what v.19 is saying? The 'judgment' here is an identification of the problem, not the handing down of a sentence. The passage reads to the effect that God sends Jesus as a solution to man's problem (his fatal love of sin), and man rejects him.

So what's the divine solution? Lay the ax to the root, don't pass over sin anymore but have the Lamb take away the sin of the world by revealing the way the truth and the life, the gift of grace, the spirit of victory and the gospel of reconciliation. God's unbreakable seal in blood at Calvary that says trust me I've got your salvation covered, I will be all in all. The battle is spiritual not carnal.

Shrewd Manager · Sep 10, 2019

brinny said:
She became a pillar o' salt.

She should have looked forward.

For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
(Mark 9:49-50)

brinny · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
She should have looked forward.

For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
(Mark 9:49-50)

She loved evil rather than God or the escape from the destruction He arranged. She neither feared God nor gave heed to His warning.

She was stiff-necked.

It is written that those who are stiff-necked will be suddenly destroyed and without remedy.

It is written that it is rebellion, and rebellion is as witchcraft.

sdowney717 · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Well no, when do you hear a judge pronounce sentence to the effect "they chose to do the wrong thing because they love evil" which is what v.19 is saying? The 'judgment' here is an identification of the problem, not the handing down of a sentence. The passage reads to the effect that God sends Jesus as a solution to man's problem (his fatal love of sin), and man rejects him.

So what's the divine solution? Lay the ax to the root, don't pass over sin anymore but have the Lamb take away the sin of the world by revealing the way the truth and the life, the gift of grace, the spirit of victory and the gospel of reconciliation. God's unbreakable seal in blood at Calvary that says trust me I've got your salvation covered, I will be all in all. The battle is spiritual not carnal.

The ax to the root, is the life of the person being axed.
You do not believe in eternal life versus eternal death, everlasting destruction, I see that now.
You do not believe in saved vs condemned, you must not believe you must be born again in this life to be saved then?

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
S&G are destroyed with eternal fire on earth, then they're revived on judgment day to be set right by Christ.

wouldn't it be great of that was a text in the Bible??

Der Alte · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
You're not permitting me to use that verse for effect? Much obliged.

You can use anything you want "for effect" but when someone quotes a verse out-of-context trying to make it say something it does not say, it is dishonest. As you quoted 1 Cor 3:15, isolated and out-of-context it appears to say that all men will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

"Any man"/"every man" in this passage does NOT refer to all man kind, it only refers to "any man"/"every man" who is "labourers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." And builds on the foundation of Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 3:9-12. And this is clearly shown in 1 Cor 3:17.

1 Corinthians 3:9
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:11-12
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Nobody is saved by their works.

Jesus taught that we must be right with God before we can enter the Kingdom. Only God can set us right, by cleansing us of our sin.
If Jesus came to save the world, he is the beginning and end, and ultimately God will be all in all, why lack faith? Take heart, with God nothing is impossible.

That all things are possible with God does not in any way state or suggest that all mankind, evil and righteous alike, will be saved.
There is not one single verse in the Bible in which God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking which states or implies that all mankind, evil and righteous alike, will be saved.

Der Alte · Sep 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Perhaps you'll permit me to illustrate with song? Ahem..Check 1 tsssuu...and a 1 2 3 4...
Here's a song, 'bout Gomorrah n Sodom
They were down, ooh they hit rock bottom.
It's a hope, for Sodom n Gomorrah
Troubled past, but brighter tomorrah
And in the day, the judgment day
Fortunes restored, her children pray
'Thank God we're not like Capernaum
They really are a crying sha(u)me'
O their pride still doth bring them ire
But saved they'll be, yet as through fire
And t'will emerge, reverently
To the angels' choir, triumphantly...oohhhh (wait for it)....
[Insert 64 bar Shrewd lead break]
Praise the Lord, 'bout Gomorrah n Sodom
Their smoke rose up, and lost in olam.
But it's assured, for Sodom n Gomorrah
God hath made a new tomorrah.
He hath made (drum roll) a new (cymbals) to.....morr......rraaaaaaahhhhh! (chkachkah!)

Too bad none of that is scriptural.
I would like to see one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking which states that all mankind, evil and righteous alike, will be saved.

Shrewd Manager · Sep 11, 2019

BobRyan said:
wouldn't it be great of that was a text in the Bible??

Shrewd Manager · Sep 11, 2019

sdowney717 said:
The ax to the root, is the life of the person being axed.
You do not believe in eternal life versus eternal death, everlasting destruction, I see that now.
You do not believe in saved vs condemned, you must not believe you must be born again in this life to be saved then?

Yes I do. Death is destroyed eternally. It's the last enemy. Sin is destroyed eternally. This is the spiritual warfare. So what then remains? The good life in Christ. Sinners wash robes in blood of Lamb, enter heaven for healing. It's all there in Rev 21-22. Read the end of the book, find out what happens.

Shrewd Manager · Sep 11, 2019

BobRyan said:
wouldn't it be great of that was a text in the Bible??

For the third time in this thread:

“I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst, (Ez 16:53)

Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (Mt 10:15)

Why is it that many folks can only relate to God as a punishing magistrate? Father's justice is about setting right, not getting even.

Shrewd Manager · Sep 11, 2019

Der Alter said:
isolated and out-of-context

You're right, so try to keep that in mind next time you quote 'hell-texts'. How often was Jesus giving out warnings of Gehenna fire to unbelievers, for instance?

vinsight4u · Sep 11, 2019

BobRyan · Sep 11, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
For the third time in this thread:

“I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst, (Ez 16:53)

Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (Mt 10:15)

Why is it that many folks can only relate to God as a punishing magistrate? Father's justice is about setting right, not getting even.

11 And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. 12 As you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14 Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

"15 Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city. "

Does not say - the wicked are raised and "go to heaven anyway" .

==========================
Ezek
51 Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half of your sins, for you have multiplied your abominations more than they. Thus you have made your sisters appear righteous by all your abominations which you have committed. 52 Also bear your disgrace in that you have made judgment favorable for your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. Yes, be also ashamed and bear your disgrace, in that you made your sisters appear righteous. 53 “Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54 in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55 Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.

This does not talk about anyone being resurrected or going to heaven. It talks about the cities/land being freed from domination by a foreign power.

You use extreme inference to insert your doctrine into the text that does not mention it.

Ashes or Everlasting Fire

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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