we are ALL PREDESTINED

corinth77777 said:

Yeay I had to and have to rethink that thought but I got tired earlier

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Well, post again when you got your thoughts together.

corinth77777 said:

For the subject at hand

Chazaq
Harden

Means encourage, strengthen, assisted
So I wonder if it means, He allowed

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God restrains sin. 2 Thessalonians 2:7
There are more verses on this. I know there are; I'm just not sure where they are at the moment. (They're in the Bible! Ahhh... yuck yuck yuck....)

(Moving on from lame jokes.)

So to "un-restrain" sin; all He has to do is remove His hand of restraint and evil becomes apparent pretty quickly. And I think that's probably what happened to Pharaoh.

I'll have to look at the language in Exodus and see if I can get any clues from that as far as God "passively" or "actively" hardening Pharaoh's heart.

The clues in the text that I can readily see happen when God's power is displayed and no one can challenge it for Pharaoh's "defense". The ancient Egyptians worshiped the Pharaohs and so I think the most obvious hardening of the heart came in proving who was the true Deity. Of anything that tripped Pharaoh's trigger; that seemed to be it.

Also, the plagues of things that were made manifest were also considered gods by the Egyptians and Pharaoh was just the top of the pile.

renniks said:

Well, then, by all means, lets stop this evangelical nonsense. Some of the reformers would agree I'm sure, that evangelizing is useless, since God is just gonna save who he wants to anyway. But, funny thing is, the Word says that faith comes through hearing the Word. Romans 10:17 Someone may start their quest to learn truth from seeing God in nature, but only if it leads to hearing of Jesus does salvation come about.

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Here is something I see that may be helpful.
One can have faith to mentally believe something about Christ with no intention on following
But the faith that saves is the one with intent to follow....
That goes back to Gal 2;16
Where it says :
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This is why I don't agree with former Baptist view....of Justification...

There is a Faith [belief system]
That begins with having faith in who He is....meaning looking to Him as the Master of the universe..mentally, but in order to be saved, delivered from present circumstances one has to heartily put trust in who they believe.
So yes faith comes by hearing...but faith for what? The ability to believe who he is, or the faith that justifies?

For there are 2 options I see...of what the faith of Christ is. One, his faithfullness.
Or 2. His obedience to the father, and thereof the father doing the work. And so this is making me think broader....in all and all God does everything, a d it seems as we learn from...Rather its learn from His goodness, love and faithfulness...it seem then that God brings about things as we learn to obey/trust Him.

So I don't believe it's as He just picks....I believe He is faithful to Himself to bring about our transformation at the cost of our lives....placing our lives in His hands. Thus so, I see deliverance, or being saved in accordance with having a relationship. Because that is How we come to know or have an intimate relationship with the heart fixer and mind regulator.

The Righterzpen said:

God restrains sin. 2 Thessalonians 2:7
There are more verses on this. I know there are; I'm just not sure where they are at the moment. (They're in the Bible! Ahhh... yuck yuck yuck....)

(Moving on from lame jokes.)

So to "un-restrain" sin; all He has to do is remove His hand of restraint and evil becomes apparent pretty quickly. And I think that's probably what happened to Pharaoh.

I'll have to look at the language in Exodus and see if I can get any clues from that as far as God "passively" or "actively" hardening Pharaoh's heart.

The clues in the text that I can readily see happen when God's power is displayed and no one can challenge it for Pharaoh's "defense". The ancient Egyptians worshiped the Pharaohs and so I think the most obvious hardening of the heart came in proving who was the true Deity. Of anything that tripped Pharaoh's trigger; that seemed to be it.

Also, the plagues of things that were made manifest were also considered gods by the Egyptians and Pharaoh was just the top of the pile.

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There is a place somewhere...where it says God resist the proud but gives grace to the humble.......
So I'm thinking He just allows Pharoah to do as He pleases...
Kind of reminds me of the passages...turn them over to Satan so that their soul may be saved. ...This has been a very enlightening topic....

The Righterzpen said:

God restrains sin. 2 Thessalonians 2:7
There are more verses on this. I know there are; I'm just not sure where they are at the moment. (They're in the Bible! Ahhh... yuck yuck yuck....)

(Moving on from lame jokes.)

So to "un-restrain" sin; all He has to do is remove His hand of restraint and evil becomes apparent pretty quickly. And I think that's probably what happened to Pharaoh.

I'll have to look at the language in Exodus and see if I can get any clues from that as far as God "passively" or "actively" hardening Pharaoh's heart.

The clues in the text that I can readily see happen when God's power is displayed and no one can challenge it for Pharaoh's "defense". The ancient Egyptians worshiped the Pharaohs and so I think the most obvious hardening of the heart came in proving who was the true Deity. Of anything that tripped Pharaoh's trigger; that seemed to be it.

Also, the plagues of things that were made manifest were also considered gods by the Egyptians and Pharaoh was just the top of the pile.

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So there is the answer.....reminds me in the OT how the people wanted to have kings rule over them...and God allowed...or as you say removed His hand. I WONDER IF THAT IS WHAT hell is today..on earth....Only so people will turn to Him........He is life, the life giver and life sustainer. So no we don't serve no "evil mean God"...men are evil...and God allows people to do what's in their heart...other wise there wouldn't be free will..
God wants us to love Him freely...isn't that awesome.....

So ...I don't want to say I can't wait to turn my life over to God because He says don't be anxious for nothing....one never knows what they will get when they ask God to give them right now! Maybe some suffering to go along with what we desire even when we may have good intentions.
But I'm thankful God will work with me as im learning to give up my life....isn't He good...
He's even teaching us, that He's teaching us!
Why? So we can have life with Him now, and His Glory be shown through us...so that people will be drawn to Him....
So what does it mean "if I be lifted up...I'll draw all men unto my self?"....we are the ones who lift Him up when we surrender to His will.
Amen...I believe God is opening up my understanding...because I have been on my knees........He is Good!

corinth77777 said:

Because they didn't remain in His Love...They can't bear fruit therefore are useless...

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So what happened to “God’s enduring faith” then? If I’m not mistaken you were saying salvation is not by our enduring faith but God’s enduring faith now your saying they didn’t abide (remain) in His love. So I don’t understand how both of these situations can be true.

corinth77777 said:

Well at the point they are forgiven...they have stopped sinning

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You know people who have stopped sinning?

The Righterzpen said:

By the law is the knowledge of sin and no man is justified by the law. The wages of sin is death and the amount of wage earned is dependent on level of transgression of the law. Now all that may be known of God can be seen in the creation and this is how all are without excuse.

Are men really judged solely by whether or not they believe? (Are they even judged at all by whether they "believe"?) The actions performed are what shows forth the unbelief. And the actions performed are what earns one the wages of sin.

So whether or not they are capable of believing; would be immaterial if they are judged by the works of the law

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Did you read John 3:18?

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Also there is no different levels of transgression. There is either transgression or no transgression.

“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The Righterzpen said:

Adam lived without sin, until he sinned. So is man capable of living without sin? He's certainly capable of living outside of the knowledge of sin.



Some of them sin more.



Men can and do have moral reformations outside of Christ all the time. To repent simply means to turn from your sin. Can the unregenerate repent? Yes they can.

Can someone believe in Jesus without actually having real faith? Absolutely. The church is chuck full'o unbelievers. Many outside of Christianity recognize Jesus as someone who made a positive contribution to human history. Some (Muslims) believe He was a prophet. Some people do actually believe He was the Messiah, but they don't want to change their lifestyle. So at least for those who are honest enough to say "Well, I'm not a Christian." I give them credit for their honesty.

Only the elect truly trust in Christ.

Those who endure the wrath of God, do so because of sin they chose to commit. God did not make them commit sin just because they are not elect.

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So if only those whom God has elected can truly trust in Christ then what happens to those He didn’t elect? We must truly trust in Christ to receive salvation. So your still saying that God has predestined those whom He has not elected to the lake of fire. Sin is completely irrelevant because all man has sinned. Those whom God has elected are no more worthy of salvation than those whom He has not elected. So it still comes down to God saying inny minny miny mo and choosing who will believe in Christ and be saved and who will not believe and burn for all eternity.

corinth77777 said:

So there is the answer.....reminds me in the OT how the people wanted to have kings rule over them...and God allowed...or as you say removed His hand. I WONDER IF THAT IS WHAT hell is today..on earth....Only so people will turn to Him........He is life, the life giver and life sustainer. So no we don't serve no "evil mean God"...men are evil...and God allows people to do what's in their heart...other wise there wouldn't be free will..
God wants us to love Him freely...isn't that awesome.....

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As a veteran, (and one with PTSD); I've come to the conclusion that the Divine purpose for human warfare is that God's people see their need for Him. There's nothing quite like facing a battlefield for a 20 something year old to think about their mortality. War makes ya think about a lot of things. No war is clean or wholly just, if just at all! The enemy is every where and at times he wears your own uniform! Still, all things work for the good of the furtherance of the Kingdom. There's a reason allied military forces left 500,000. Bibles in Saudi Arabia from Desert Storm. That was the most common thing Saudis asked us for; current events magazines and Bibles!

BNR32FAN said:

So what happened to “God’s enduring faith” then? If I’m not mistaken you were saying salvation is not by our enduring faith but God’s enduring faith now your saying they didn’t abide (remain) in His love. So I don’t understand how both of these situations can be true.

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Because Hebrews explains He lives forever to INTERCEED on our behalf for those who come to Him...another passage say without Him we cannot do anything.....
Why cant you see?.that's a question..no insult..His enduring faith..is his faithfullness .
I'm saying its through His faithfulness.

With that said, turn to first Peter 3..around verse 21 after reading these if you do no understand my reply I will explain more
St. John 3:16....
Ephesians 2:8...

BNR32FAN said:

You know people who have stopped sinning?

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Yes....anyone that God Justifies

corinth77777 said:

Because Hebrews explains He lives forever to INTERCEED on our behalf for those who come to Him...another passage say without Him we cannot do anything.....
Why cant you see?.that's a question..no insult..His enduring faith..is his faithfullness .
I'm saying its through His faithfulness.

With that said, turn to first Peter 3..around verse 21 after reading these if you do no understand my reply I will explain more
St. John 3:16....
Ephesians 2:8...

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Amen He is faithful to complete that which He has begun in us as long as we continue to come to Him.

Colossians 1:22-23 John 15:1-10 Romans 11:17-23 2 Timothy 2:12

BNR32FAN said:

So if only those whom God has elected can truly trust in Christ then what happens to those He didn’t elect? We must truly trust in Christ to receive salvation. So your still saying that God has predestined those whom He has not elected to the lake of fire. Sin is completely irrelevant because all man has sinned. Those whom God has elected are no more worthy of salvation than those whom He has not elected. So it still comes down to God saying inny minny miny mo and choosing who will believe in Christ and be saved and who will not believe and burn for all eternity.

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Those who chose not Christ do not have to be elected in the sense you must define elect...but being outside of God's grace they chose to be there...and as was discussed earlier the world has conformed them...shaped them....God already made way of escape Christ's body...sacrifice a body that:

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,

but a body You prepared for me.

6In burnt offerings and sin offerings

You took no delight.

7Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:

I have come to do Your will, O God.’”a

8In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). 9Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

BNR32FAN said:

Amen He is faithful to complete that which He has begun in us as long as we continue to come to Him.

Colossians 1:22-23 John 15:1-10 Romans 11:17-23 2 Timothy 2:12

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Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

In my opinionation
He saves the body to save the soul
Have a relationship with the Father and the son
AND THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU THE ONLY TRUE God and Jesus Christ

corinth77777 said:

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

In my opinionation
He saves the body to save the soul
Have a relationship with the Father and the son
AND THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU THE ONLY TRUE God and Jesus Christ

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Honestly I'm writing this stuff...the scriptures I memorized through reading...are just coming to life....so thank God for blessing me

Ephesians 1;18
the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Sound like someone prayed this forward

corinth77777 said:

So ...I don't want to say I can't wait to turn my life over to God because He says don't be anxious for nothing....one never knows what they will get when they ask God to give them right now!

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LOL - It's OK, you can say: "I can't wait to turn my life over.." Paul makes a statement 2 Corinthians about being jealous over someone with Godly jealousy. It's OK to want God, to want wisdom, to want understanding and even to "want it all now!" Lord give me patience - NOW! LOL - We've all prayed those kind of prayers.

corinth77777 said:

Maybe some suffering to go along with what we desire even when we may have good intentions.

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Suffering is useful though. It makes us realize how very much God holds our lives in His hands. I think about believers in the Middle East a lot. They face a very different set of trials than I do. And I think it will be interesting (and maybe even rather funny) come the other side of eternity, when I run into a bunch of Iraqis who discover some anonymous disabled American veteran prayed for them and their country for most of her life.

I'm sure we will find too though that we faced a lot of the same trials.

When I was a teenager, I had an interest in the Soviet Union and studied Russian history and politics for a while. I became a believer at 17 and I started praying for the Russian people. Then when the Iron Curtain came down and Soviet Union ceased to exist when I was in the military; I worked with a radio station in California on a Bibles for Russia project. As the years passed and I continued to follow what was going on in Russia; there was a revival there. And I remember, even back in the days working with the radio station; thinking to myself - Wow, God is answering.... my prayers for this nation? Now obviously, I knew I was't the only one praying for Russia - LOL. But I was comforted to see the lights come on in a place that had been swallowed by darkness for at least almost a century.

I know there's a revival going on in the Middle East too. Personally, I'm starting to think this is humanities last "hoo rah". The final push just before Judgement Day; for those God is bringing into His Kingdom. His word wont return void! And for as much poop that's on the web; the Internet was a Divine gift to us! It is the street preacher of these last days!

corinth77777 said:

But I'm thankful God will work with me as im learning to give up my life....isn't He good...

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"Good" isn't a big enough word to describe God. LOL

corinth77777 said:

He's even teaching us, that He's teaching us!
Why? So we can have life with Him now, and His Glory be shown through us...so that people will be drawn to Him....

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Yes, I find people are often either awestruck by God's providence when they hear the testimony of someone who's endured a lot of suffering; (There are a fair number of Job testimonies in this world.) or they are puzzled.

Something is different about this person's world view. Something is different about how they face life. You don't get the sense that what they say about God is just a parroted set of denominational teachings. They live LIFE. They live FAITH. They know that all comes from GOD. Even if you don't know what they were like before; you see they are changed. The power and providence of the Almighty reigns in their life! No matter WHAT happens! I've only ever met a few of these people in 30 plus years of being a believer; (compared to all the "Christians" I've encountered.) but they are out there!

corinth77777 said:

So what does it mean "if I be lifted up...I'll draw all men unto my self?"....we are the ones who lift Him up when we surrender to His will.

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The next verse in that passage says that statement was made to "signify what death He should die".

And "ironically" the one person at the crucifixion who declared Jesus was the Son of God; was not one of the disciples and was not a leader of the Jewish nation. He wasn't even a Jew. The ONE PERSON at the crucifixion who declared Jesus was the Son of God; was an officer in the Roman army! A GENTILE! A "heathen dog"!

Then the day the Holy Spirit is poured out. What happens? The gospel begins it's march into the rest of the world! And it's us heathen nations who preach it to other heathen nations. And it changes the course of history! It changes the course humanity set itself on; that road to destruction. I don't think it was an "accident" that after the Holy Spirit is poured out; the human population on this planet explodes. It's calculated that more people are alive today than the entire population of humanity that has lived up until this time. There's a reason for that in God's providence!

So yes, we the gentile nations are the ones who "life Him up" via the evidence of God's sovereign reign over our lives; in that we surrender to His will. Notice who are the people out there "preaching the gospel". It's not the Jews! (They are a whole other.... political "can of worms"; but that's the subject of another thread! LOL)

corinth77777 said:

Amen...I believe God is opening up my understanding...because I have been on my knees........He is Good!

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And all God's people said AMEN!

corinth77777 said:

Those who chose not Christ do not have to be elected in the sense you must define elect...but being outside of God's grace they chose to be there...and as was discussed earlier the world has conformed them...shaped them....God already made way of escape Christ's body...sacrifice a body that:

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,

but a body You prepared for me.

6In burnt offerings and sin offerings

You took no delight.

7Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:

I have come to do Your will, O God.’”a

8In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). 9Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

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Yes your saying we have a choice but the person I replied to says we don’t and that only those whom God elects can truly trust Christ.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes your saying we have a choice but the person I replied to says we don’t and that only those whom God elects can truly trust Christ.

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@corinth77777 - He's talking about me! LOL