Christianity in a multiverse
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Yes, God being the ground of being is very important for Christianity. Since my imagination is part of the image of God, to the degree that I'm not destroying myself in the negative non-being by canceling out some positive being aspect of reality, ... To that degree my imagination will match and synchronize with God or at least express some positive aspect of reality that is worthy to exist if only in potential, until it is needed. Lower realities dont directly exist due to gods will but rather exist because of fallen souls. But then god also reacts to their fall and ect.
So many worlds can exist in the idea that there can be a limited branching off of this reality. if god has created such I do not know but it is a possibility.
but I don't think an infinite amount of these universes can exist because as far as I can tell it would not serve God or his purposes or his beings.
The infinite Multiplicity of universes branching off into other ones is something that resides in the Divine Abyss or the freedom before being or the pure potentiality of reality. In other words something does not exist unless either God or something like us makes it to exist. God of course has more ability to bring about reality.
So many worlds can exist in the idea that there can be a limited branching off of this reality. if god has created such I do not know but it is a possibility.
but I don't think an infinite amount of these universes can exist because as far as I can tell it would not serve God or his purposes or his beings.
The infinite Multiplicity of universes branching off into other ones is something that resides in the Divine Abyss or the freedom before being or the pure potentiality of reality. In other words something does not exist unless either God or something like us makes it to exist. God of course has more ability to bring about reality.
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The ground of being can be divided in the sense that we have to have freedom and therefore God puts a kind of limit to himself in order that we his children may exist because being in God's image is impossible without freedom.
This is one reason why it is said that we are created from nothing. In my eyes Christianity has played a big part in secretly exalting man even to a microcosm, microtheos, microtrinity, microman, ect.
This is one reason why it is said that we are created from nothing. In my eyes Christianity has played a big part in secretly exalting man even to a microcosm, microtheos, microtrinity, microman, ect.
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TheOldWays
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I do think there is various 'lifelines' that a person can be on depending on their 'frequency'. So it's not a stretch to imagine that Jesus knew of this as well. Although, I imagine a chap like Jesus had a very high frequency and was probably on the optimal life line to achieve his goal.
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The late Professor Stephen Hawking once stated that one objection he has for a Creator of the universe is that such a concept is just too complex and as a scientist, he prefers the simplest solution possible. Cool. However, with the advent of belief in multi-verses and all they entail (for example, each decision I make opens up another universe and timeline in which I make the opposite decision), I'd like to posit that the the good ol' mulitverse is much more complicated and mind boggling than an omnipotent Creator.
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There is also the possibility that Judas or other key players in the life of Jesus might have made different choices in different universes. What would God and Jesus do if Judas was loyal? What would they do if the Jewish aristocracy decided to embrace Jesus as their Messiah? Does Christianity work without Jesus hanging on a cross? Isaiah 53 is supposed to predict Jesus and the Crucifixion, so in an alternate universe it would only predict things in the time of Hezekiah?
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TheOldWays
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I think Jesus' intent was to hang on the cross. The rest was just details. Judas may or may not have betrayed him, but in the lifeline he was on, he did. Like I said, I think Jesus was probably seeing things very clearly and could have achieved his goal in a variety of ways.
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Jesus did in at least one universe rise from the dead. Resurrection doesn't break any laws of physics and, since the implications of an infinite multiverse are such that anything that can happen does happen somewhere, then resurrection has certainly happened at least once and possibly infinitely many times. Whether you believe it happened in *this* universe is an entirely different question.
But then, Mohammed did in at least one universe ride on a winged horse. Joseph Smith was in at least one universe visited by the angel Moroni. et cetera et cetera.
The only way out of this weird picture of the multiverse is to argue that emergent laws supersede the reductive atomic level laws of physics. For example you could say the norms of biology prevent an otherwise atomically possible event like resurrection from ever happening. But these norms can only tell you the percentage of universes in which a given weird event occurs, not rule out the possibility altogether.
It follows that in some universes, magic actually works. How wacky must it feel to live in one of those universes?
But then, Mohammed did in at least one universe ride on a winged horse. Joseph Smith was in at least one universe visited by the angel Moroni. et cetera et cetera.
The only way out of this weird picture of the multiverse is to argue that emergent laws supersede the reductive atomic level laws of physics. For example you could say the norms of biology prevent an otherwise atomically possible event like resurrection from ever happening. But these norms can only tell you the percentage of universes in which a given weird event occurs, not rule out the possibility altogether.
It follows that in some universes, magic actually works. How wacky must it feel to live in one of those universes?
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Great thread. I'm sorry I just now came across it.
I don't have much experience with multiverse theory. What I am somewhat familiar with is modal logic and possible worlds theory.
When it comes to possible worlds there are two main schools of thought. One is that of David Lewis, who believed that all possible worlds are concrete worlds, even though this one is the actual one. So you in another world would not be you but a "counterpart" of you (David Lewis's word-counterpart).
The other option is the more common one and referred to as ersatz worlds. Christian philosophers like Alvin Plantinga hold to this theory. In this theory, this world is actual and all other worlds are "ways the world could possibly be" but they are not concrete. Even though the other worlds are not concrete or "real." thinking in terms of possible worlds has proved very powerful in terms of metaphysics and epistemology.
The other thing I was thinking is that, by and large in modal logic, if something is necessary, then it is necessary in all possible worlds. The reason for this is that if something is contingent (i.e. not-necessary) then it is contingent and may exist in one world, but not another. If it is necessary, it is true or actual in all possible worlds. So, assuming God's existence is necessary, then it is true that God exists in all possible worlds. And since God is immutable, God is good and loving in all possible worlds. You can extend this same argument to Jesus Christ in that he, too, is divine. However, would the Incarnation happen in all possible worlds? Interesting question. I'm not sure how to answer that one.
I don't know if any of this relates or stirs any thought, but I'm very interested in what everyone is sharing. Great thread.
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Exactly, so why would they even have to abide by the rules we know here. In other words, why, in that other dimension, would the opposite choice have to be made?
*No law of non-contradiction there...
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Exactly. If we think in terms of modal logic (i.e. logic about what is possible and what is necessary) then: If it X necessary, then X obtains in all possible worlds. There is no world where 2+2=5. 2+2 always equals 4, in all possible worlds. Thinking more theologically: Assuming God is necessary (which seems to me a reasonable assumption), then God exists in all possible worlds. Since God is always God, God is the same in all possible worlds (i.e. Good, Faithful, Holy, etc.).
When it comes to the Incarnation, we do encounter problems. If a necessary Being is incarnated into a contingent world, then isn't that necessary Being now subject to the contingency of that world? How does one guarantee that Jesus is always Jesus in every possible world?
It may be that some possible worlds don't contain sin. Sin is not necessary. Sin is contingent on a willing subject (human, demon, etc.). So, there may be worlds where no sin takes place; and therefore no need for the incarnation to deal with sin. However, the incarnation does more than simply address sin. It also addresses mortality. I am not sure if mortality is necessary and therefore obtains in all possible worlds. But if it could be shown that mortality is necessary, then the incarnation takes place in all possible worlds.
Whatever the case, how does one guarantee that Jesus is always Jesus, no matter what world an incarnation takes place in? One can guarantee that Jesus is always Jesus because his will is always perfectly united to the will of the Father. By virtue of who he is, he remains the same. And, necessarily so. There is no world where Jesus is disobedient. You can change the circumstances of the contingent world, but Jesus will always obey.
I don't know if that argument works or not.
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So, you're saying we're headed to unlimited intelligence and immortality here on earth? Are you saying the whole universe will become overcrowded?
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Not to pick on this post because it goes wrong but, and I say this as a compliment, it goes wrong in interesting ways. First let’s take the implication that multiverse is a theory.
Multiverse is actually not a theory, it’s a prediction. Inflation theory and quantum theory both predict multiple universes. *Other* predictions of both theories have been proven true (let the colloquial “proof” slide for now Popperians and pedants) thus the *rest* of those theory’s predictions including the existence of multiple universes is derived even though they have not been directly empirically tested.
This is a common misconception about science. All the predictions of a theory need not be tested in order for us to rationally believe the theory. Only one prediction has to be tested provided that prediction is mutually exclusive to the predictions of that theory’s rival theories. Pretty lucky when you think about it. Free discoveries like multiverses come popping out for free when we test our best explanations and follow them to their logical conclusion. Even if the prediction of that one discovery is itself untestable.
About other universes being very different than our own, it all depends on what kind of multiverse we’re taking about. A different universe in a level I multiverse is similar to our universe because by definition they share the same physical constants. A universe in a level III multiverse is even more likely to be like ours obviously because of the branching effect. (See Max Tegmark’s taxonomy of universes, Wikipedia is fine)
It gets weirder.
Universes sharing the same physical constants will over time become more like each other even in one specific emergent property far above the level of physical laws, atomic particles, and so on. Namely the creation of knowledge. In two different universes with intelligent beings otherwise completely different from one another, General relativity will still be discovered. Just maybe by a girl name Ally instead of a guy named Albert.
Distinguishing properties that do converge across universes over time versus properties that diverge is worth exploring for this thread. Take religion for example: what properties of religions are likely to be similar across all universes with intelligent life? I suspect the specific details of the stories will wildly diverge while the core structures will repeat over and over we again.
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Kaon
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Fascinating...
A Resurrected Word of God is usually silly to academics, but the Truth is independent of the limit of human comprehension. That is why we need wisdom to get us past that particular plateau of "intelligence and logic" we believe is so important. Every paradigm, the fantastical myths and conspiracies of history become accepted "fact", and the accepted "facts" become superstitions and myths.
It is good you chose to develop an understanding on your own (with our Father) instead of trusting other humans with the trajectory of your intellectual journey as a sovereign human. Part of the faith process is realizing your Father will correct and reinforce you along the way.
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You could broaden and deepen your understanding by reading more on competing theories. Here's a useful site especially for keeping up with QM theorizing and comparing theories: Quantamagazine.org. (I think this site is somewhat accessible, and even those without a physics background could probably work their way through articles enough to get an impression of the state of things)
You should want to avoid being merely a fan of some pet theories, but instead if you want to have a better understanding, read about the whole range of competing theories.
The eternal inflation multiverse idea is a very different and unrelated theory to the Many Worlds theory.
Also, it is useful to be aware that inflation itself is not sufficiently convincing to physicists for them to consider it a mostly sure thing, but...theorists are actively considering alternatives.
e.g. -- Alternatives to Cosmological Inflation
Inflation might be correct or correct and incomplete, we don't know yet nearly to the level of certainty we have for things like general relativity, and at best though it seems incomplete now. But it could well be merely a wrong idea. It remains to be seen.
In short, it helps to read not just 5 or 10 main articles to elaborate more on your favorite pet theories...
Instead you should read a lot more main articles really -- not just a few, but really more than a dozen, minimum, and more is better -- to learn about other theories.
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@Tone
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